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Is HBAO+ actually better? (The Division)

Azix

Azix

Golden Member
I've been comparing HBAO+ to regular SSAO and concluded its not actually better, just different. Now seeing nvidias comparison in division with HBAO+ vs Ultra Ambient Occlusion I started wondering

http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...de#tom-clancys-the-division-ambient-occlusion

1. it seems to just make shadows darker in general.
2. real life doesn't look like it does. We do not see dark areas between objects like that.

HBAO+ vs Ultra

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...comparison-001-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-ultra.html

Ultra vs Off - this is the best demonstration for ambient occlusion. there is minimal noticeable difference between the ultra vs high, medium and low. But off shows what really changes with AO for both ultra and HBAO+.

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...-interactive-comparison-001-ultra-vs-off.html

HBAO+ vs Off

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...e-comparison-001-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-off.html

With the comparisons against off I now think its clear Ultra is more natural. Its not looking like pointlessly darkening things. HBAO+ is darker, that's about it.
 
That is a tough one. The HBAO+ vs Ultra. I think it depends on what the scene is supposed to look like. HBAO+ looks darker in general. Both look pretty good to me. I would go with HBAO+ looking more natural. The Ultra or HBAO+ vs Off is a good example. The colors and shading is washed out on the off. Im stuck with a 770 until the next gen cards come up. I will see if it can even play with HBAO+ at 1080p tonight.
 
HBAO+ looks better to me, and will probably look even better with HDR screens where blacks are getting crushed now.
 
Most forms of ambient occlusion used in games are screen space methods so it is inherently limited with the amount of information they can work with. HBAO+ is not necessarily better than other screen space methods accuracy wise ...

One can make an argument for robustness, quality or even better performance in favour of HBAO+ but a well implemented SSAO can match it in terms of the former two ...
 
If you ask me HBAO+ vs Ultra look like different times of the day. I can picture both scenes as possible with the sun at different heights.

Off looks fake, the edges of the trash bags of a white illumination that makes them each appear individually glued into the area.

I'd personally opt for the dark scene, would be more fitting for the game. However, if it's noon (in game time) Ultra makes more sense.
 
Samwell said:
Depends always on the scene which looks better. Looking at this:
http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...comparison-002-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-ultra.html

I prefer HBAO+, the Cera Signs on the right look better for me and also the wall near the warning/quarantine sign.

But the more interesting tech in the Division is Nvidias HFTS, seems first title using conservative rasterization for Hybrid Raytrayced Shadows.
Click to expand...

But it kills performance. I tried it. Couldn't really notice much sudden difference. But turning it off immediately gave me 5fps.

As for HBAO I'm sure it's "better" but not noticeable in game play. However it has me confused as to whether it performs better or worse than ultra in this game. I tried both and got varying results. I'm waiting for the GeForce analysis of this game.
 
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Samwell said:
Depends always on the scene which looks better. Looking at this:
http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...comparison-002-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-ultra.html

I prefer HBAO+, the Cera Signs on the right look better for me and also the wall near the warning/quarantine sign.

But the more interesting tech in the Division is Nvidias HFTS, seems first title using conservative rasterization for Hybrid Raytrayced Shadows.
Click to expand...

Yeah that example, I'd definitely take HBAO+ over Ultra. The leaves on the ground look washed out in the Ultra setting. HBAO+ gives em a little pop.

Actually there are some minor imperfections in the ground texture that seem almost invisible with the Ultra setting.
 
sxr7171 said:
But it kills performance. I tried it. Couldn't really notice much sudden difference. But turning it off immediately gave me 5fps.

As for HBAO I'm sure it's "better" but not noticeable in game play. However it has me confused as to whether it performs better or worse than ultra in this game. I tried both and got varying results. I'm waiting for the GeForce analysis of this game.
Click to expand...

Use what works best for your rig. The HBAO+ looks better too me but Ultra looks decent also. Don't have the game but I'd most likely just run with what gave me the best compromise in quality vs fps. I lean towards fps over visual fidelity most of the time.
 
HBAO+ Has never looked correct to me in most cases, it just makes everything concave dark.

Here are a bunch of dark areas that should be brighter:

XjSFAbt.png


It also removes detail from this scene (better to pause on each picture)

https://gfycat.com/UnlinedJollyIbadanmalimbe
 
Samwell said:
Depends always on the scene which looks better. Looking at this:
http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...comparison-002-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-ultra.html

I prefer HBAO+, the Cera Signs on the right look better for me and also the wall near the warning/quarantine sign.

But the more interesting tech in the Division is Nvidias HFTS, seems first title using conservative rasterization for Hybrid Raytrayced Shadows.
Click to expand...

I didnt even notice the other pictures. heh.

That looks ok, but in another case

http://images.nvidia.com/geforce-co...comparison-004-nvidia-hbao-plus-vs-ultra.html

the boxes to the left are better with ultra.

Bacon1 said:
HBAO+ Has never looked correct to me in most cases, it just makes everything concave dark.

Here are a bunch of dark areas that should be brighter:

XjSFAbt.png


It also removes detail from this scene (better to pause on each picture)

https://gfycat.com/UnlinedJollyIbadanmalimbe
Click to expand...

this basically sums up my issue with it. Even though sometimes the darkness helps a scene, its not accurate. eg. the scene with the cera signs
 
Oddly enough HBAO seems to run better than ultra. Might be the first time a gameworks technique is actually more efficient?
 
sxr7171 said:
Oddly enough HBAO seems to run better than ultra. Might be the first time a gameworks technique is actually more efficient?
Click to expand...

There are many ways to do SSAO, some are more efficient than others. So it all depends on which one the game used by default.

HBAO+ is one of the more extreme versions, but has pretty good performance for how much it (in my opinion over) adds.

BTAO in Tomb Raider looks better to me, and also runs more efficiently. Older techniques aren't as efficient, so it just depends on how they implemented it themselves.
 
sxr7171 said:
Oddly enough HBAO seems to run better than ultra. Might be the first time a gameworks technique is actually more efficient?
Click to expand...

tom-clancys-the-division-ambient-occlusion-performance.png


guess I'll have to check for myself. I'll be happy to turn it off. In past games I turned it on simply because it was the last setting and I wanted all ultra.
 
Azix said:
tom-clancys-the-division-ambient-occlusion-performance.png


guess I'll have to check for myself. I'll be happy to turn it off. In past games I turned it on simply because it was the last setting and I wanted all ultra.
Click to expand...

I'll have to do more testing. The game says it needs to be restarted when that setting is changed and that may be influencing my perceptions.
 
I'll agree that in Nvidia's examples it looks better (though that might be because the whole image is darker), but obviously they're going to pick the best scenes to showcase the tech.

I remember when I was playing Farcry 3, and I had HBAO on for a good portion of the game and I couldn't understand why everything looked like it had an outline which made the entire game look like a cartoon. When I finally figured out to change to a different ambient occlusion method, it was a night and day difference.

If HBAO today is anything like HBAO back then, then it's total garbage.
 
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Silverforce11 said:
http://www.computerbase.de/2016-03/...schnitt_gameworks_mit_komplett_neuen_schatten

9e1aq6V.jpg


HBAO+ runs faster on NV than the default AO implementation, as it appears to be better optimized for Maxwell.

The biggest visual difference, it makes shadows darker.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. From just watching fraps it seemed that way. But I wanted to be sure. I still keep PCSS off because that really kills performance.

As for looks. I can't really say anything else either. It just makes darker shadows.

And with PCSS it makes them a bit blurred. It's looks more natural but really is not worth the performance hit.
 
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I dislike HBAO+, I'm looking forward to VXGI though. Voxel based AO would be much better and more realistic. HBAO+ tends to overdo it because our GPUs lack proper HDR support.

I hear that Conservative Rasterization will allow the use of VXGI at playable framerates. This will most likely mean that Polaris will get VXGI support (even though it's an NVIDIA technique) at playable framerates. Throw in Polaris' HDR and you'll likely have the highest image quality seen on a PC 🙂
 
The best AO implementation I've seen, is Boris Vorontsov's SSAO SSIL. Being able to tweak it, so you can make it as dark and fat as ya want, is huge bonus tae it.
 
So apart from The Divsion I've been testing it on other games and my gosh turning it off really changes things. I mean it makes higher levels of AA accessible it lets me run games at higher resolutions.

While I'm going to test each game I play, I don't think it adds anything worth the insane performance hit on most games.

For example turning down AO in fallout 4 lets me run at 4K same for shadow of mordor. I'd rather play 4K 60fps than 1440p 60 fps with AO. That's just me.
 
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