A reasonable response. Personally, I favor stem-cell funding and research, but I do not find the opposition to it as being an extremist position. Rather, it is the logical conclusion that all Christians, including Catholics, should adhere do. I realise that a great many do not, and I think it is also fair that some, perhaps such as yourself, who do find that position unreasonable and even extreme. I just do not find the President's behaviour on the issue as forcing religious beliefs on me.
A reasonable response. Personally, I favor stem-cell funding and research, but I do not find the opposition to it as being an extremist position. Rather, it is the logical conclusion that all Christians, including Catholics, should adhere do. I realise that a great many do not, and I think it is also fair that some, perhaps such as yourself, who do find that position unreasonable and even extreme. I just do not find the President's behaviour on the issue as forcing religious beliefs on me.
yes and there are some people who believe that the denver international airport is a mecca for aliens/nazis who will use their underground lair to hide when the attacks by the council of 300 are wrought against the rest of the population...waiting for the right moment to begin the New World Order...
(we can just ignore those people)
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
John Quincy Adams was the sixth president of the United States. John Adams (no middle name) was the second president, and the father of John Quincy Adams IIRC.
Sorry, just had to slide that in there. Carry on.
Fixed.
Okay' let's examine some quotes from the second president, John Adams. He's another president who views today's leftists would consider "extreme" and "radical".
?The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity?I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.?
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
?We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!?
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in ?the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
? ?[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.?
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Originally posted by: loki8481
huh. I had a reply all written up in my head, then Rains went and posted it.
get... out... of... my... head... :|
Heh, sorry
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
John Quincy Adams was the sixth president of the United States. John Adams (no middle name) was the second president, and the father of John Quincy Adams IIRC.
Sorry, just had to slide that in there. Carry on.
Fixed.
Okay' let's examine some quotes from the second president, John Adams. He's another president who views today's leftists would consider "extreme" and "radical".
?The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity?I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.?
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
?We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!?
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in ?the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
? ?[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.?
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Have you been listening? Those sound like personal expressions of faith to me, something I (and others) have repeatedly said we don't have a problem with. Find me cases where Adams used his position to inflict his beliefs on the country and I'll listen.
Also, quotes are a poor way to measure the spiritual leanings of presidents, they ARE elected officials after all. And back then, and still today, you can't get elected to anything past City Trash Supervisor unless you say the appropriate Christian stuff. Many of our past presidents disagreed with you spiritually, but a lot of their quotes would suggest otherwise.
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
John Quincy Adams was the sixth president of the United States. John Adams (no middle name) was the second president, and the father of John Quincy Adams IIRC.
Sorry, just had to slide that in there. Carry on.
Fixed.
Okay' let's examine some quotes from the second president, John Adams. He's another president who views today's leftists would consider "extreme" and "radical".
?The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity?I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.?
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
?We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!?
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in ?the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
? ?[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.?
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Have you been listening? Those sound like personal expressions of faith to me, something I (and others) have repeatedly said we don't have a problem with. Find me cases where Adams used his position to inflict his beliefs on the country and I'll listen.
Also, quotes are a poor way to measure the spiritual leanings of presidents, they ARE elected officials after all. And back then, and still today, you can't get elected to anything past City Trash Supervisor unless you say the appropriate Christian stuff. Many of our past presidents disagreed with you spiritually, but a lot of their quotes would suggest otherwise.
Yeah, it's a good thing that none of our leaders ever put any stock in a silly idea like manifest destiny before.
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
John Quincy Adams was the sixth president of the United States. John Adams (no middle name) was the second president, and the father of John Quincy Adams IIRC.
Sorry, just had to slide that in there. Carry on.
Fixed.
Okay' let's examine some quotes from the second president, John Adams. He's another president who views today's leftists would consider "extreme" and "radical".
?The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity?I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.?
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
?We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!?
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in ?the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
? ?[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.?
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
Have you been listening? Those sound like personal expressions of faith to me, something I (and others) have repeatedly said we don't have a problem with. Find me cases where Adams used his position to inflict his beliefs on the country and I'll listen.
Also, quotes are a poor way to measure the spiritual leanings of presidents, they ARE elected officials after all. And back then, and still today, you can't get elected to anything past City Trash Supervisor unless you say the appropriate Christian stuff. Many of our past presidents disagreed with you spiritually, but a lot of their quotes would suggest otherwise.
I did:
all it really proves, imo, is that politicians 200 years ago had to pander just as much as politicians today.
the hebrew scriptures (or old testament) were guildlines set for the isrealites. jesus represented a new covenant that updated it and allowed for gentiles.
Slavery in Biblical times wasn't like slavery in the 1700's and 1800's in the US. It wasn't based on race, nationality or skin color. Rather, slavery was more of a social status. In New Testament times some people actually chose to be slaves so they would be taken care of by their master.
The Bible does not specifically condemn slavery, but it does provide instructions on how slaves should be treated.
The Bible does not specifically condemn slavery, but it does provide instructions on how slaves should be treated.
Shall we throw out Genesis with that too?
So what? There was slavery then, and there was slavery with the founding fathers. I'm saying that they were simply following the bible. Your post doesn't refuse that.
Jesus mission wasn't to end slavery but to change man's heart.
Many of the Founding Fathers work hard to abolish the institution of slavery.
Many of the Founding Fathers work hard to abolish the institution of slavery.
Right, so the Founding Fathers were in good terms with Jesus when they enslaved people.
On the whole they legitimized slavery and were actively involved in the instution. Nice try. At least they were doing the Christian thing.
Obviously, the institutution of slavery practiced in the US isn't condoned in the Bible.
A few Founding Fathers did favor slavery namely Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison.
A few Founding Fathers did favor slavery namely Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison.
Sure it is. The Bible doesn't say anything about American slavery being wrong or about African slaves being off limits.
And even the ones you didn't mention were complicit in the instution.
I posted a good article regarding the Founding Fathers and slavery. You should have a look at it.
Those who supported or were complicit in the institution of slavery will have to answer to their behavior to God.
Those who supported or were complicit in the institution of slavery will have to answer to their behavior to God.
Some of them were against it, some of them were for. The writer of the Declaration of Independence was for it. The first president of the United States of America was against it according to this article... yet he owned slaves.
Here are some more nice quotes by John Adams:
John Adams (the second President of the United States)
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
?The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.?
From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
?Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ?this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.??
From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
?I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved ? the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!?
Additional quotes from John Adams:
?Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days??
?The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.?
?...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.?
John Adams (the second President of the United States)
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
?The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.?
From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
?Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ?this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.??
From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
?I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved ? the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!?
Additional quotes from John Adams:
?Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days??
?The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.?
?...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.?
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