Is Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: loki8481
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.

because you legitimize them and their views

No. Legitimization comes with acceptance or deference, not with acknowledgement of existence. The idea that America is perfect and all should bow to our superior system and intellect is ignorant, arrogant, and intellectually and morally bankrupt. The "cold shoulder" doesn't get anywhere. it never has, it never will. Only knuckle dragging fools think it has and will.

I agree. We should be apologizing more. That will solve all of our problems in the world.

Being arrogant and not accepting your own fault isn't condusive to a partnership. We expect everybody to follow our lead, but when our leadership is poor and they follow it, we scold them. That is hypocrisy and it does nothing but diminish our leadership.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: loki8481
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.

because you legitimize them and their views

No. Legitimization comes with acceptance or deference, not with acknowledgement of existence. The idea that America is perfect and all should bow to our superior system and intellect is ignorant, arrogant, and intellectually and morally bankrupt. The "cold shoulder" doesn't get anywhere. it never has, it never will.

Absolutely. Basic foreign relations is to talk. The lack of this allows the mind to wonder and paranoia to take over. We haven't had a foreign policy worth a shit the last eight years and Obama seems bent on making that history. That's one "change" I can believe in.
Can you illustrate a major world problem that was solved via talking.

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: loki8481
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.

because you legitimize them and their views

No. Legitimization comes with acceptance or deference, not with acknowledgement of existence. The idea that America is perfect and all should bow to our superior system and intellect is ignorant, arrogant, and intellectually and morally bankrupt. The "cold shoulder" doesn't get anywhere. it never has, it never will.

Absolutely. Basic foreign relations is to talk. The lack of this allows the mind to wonder and paranoia to take over. We haven't had a foreign policy worth a shit the last eight years and Obama seems bent on making that history. That's one "change" I can believe in.
Can you illustrate a major world problem that was solved via talking.

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

So what are we supposed to do about it? Bomb them? Ignore them? Or offer them something of greater value than the perceived value of what they seek?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.
The ghost of Neville Chamberlain agrees with you.

There is a difference between talking and giving in. Appeasement is not discussion.

Doesn't sound like your married, or, if you are, your wife is a gutless coward. Because if you don't get your way you take your toys and go home.
When your wife hates your guys and blames you for everything that is wrong in her life, including things you have nothing to do with, then perhaps it is time to move out.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
When your enemies keep stabbing you in the back as you are shaking their hand is that still considered a sign of strength or a sign of weakness? I should give the guy some time, he did organize a community.

Chavez stabbed us in the back? When?

Note: Lack of ass-kissing != stabbing in the back.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: loki8481
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.

because you legitimize them and their views

No. Legitimization comes with acceptance or deference, not with acknowledgement of existence. The idea that America is perfect and all should bow to our superior system and intellect is ignorant, arrogant, and intellectually and morally bankrupt. The "cold shoulder" doesn't get anywhere. it never has, it never will. Only knuckle dragging fools think it has and will.

I agree. We should be apologizing more. That will solve all of our problems in the world.

Or maybe we could try working with the other countries in the world rather than being the toddler who throws a tantrum whenever he doesn't get his way. Obama is making excellent steps in moving our foreign policy out of the angry toddler stage.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: loki8481
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.

because you legitimize them and their views

No. Legitimization comes with acceptance or deference, not with acknowledgement of existence. The idea that America is perfect and all should bow to our superior system and intellect is ignorant, arrogant, and intellectually and morally bankrupt. The "cold shoulder" doesn't get anywhere. it never has, it never will.

Absolutely. Basic foreign relations is to talk. The lack of this allows the mind to wonder and paranoia to take over. We haven't had a foreign policy worth a shit the last eight years and Obama seems bent on making that history. That's one "change" I can believe in.
Can you illustrate a major world problem that was solved via talking.

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

What's your solution? A nuke?
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
I never did understand why talking to countries was an improper thing to do.
The ghost of Neville Chamberlain agrees with you.

There is a difference between talking and giving in. Appeasement is not discussion.

Doesn't sound like your married, or, if you are, your wife is a gutless coward. Because if you don't get your way you take your toys and go home.
When your wife hates your guys and blames you for everything that is wrong in her life, including things you have nothing to do with, then perhaps it is time to move out.

If we were to apply your foreign policy positions to your marital example, the solution would to shoot her. Moving out is a peaceful solution to the problem.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
73
91
Originally posted by: Siddhartha

Gingrich raps Obama on Chavez summit greeting

Gingrich should give up eating leaded paint chips.

Originally posted by: loki8481

because you legitimize them and their views

Good little Sir Echo. Newtie will be so proud. :roll:
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

Yea....uhhh...we actually don't talk to either of them. So I guess you are proving your oppositions point. You make this game easy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I think ingirch has the wrong ideas about the proper role of the US and how to treat other nations, and is part of why the relationship with Venezuela needs to be "{recast".

The knuckle draggers who demand the US act like emperor of the world and humiliate anyone who dares not take order and consent to theft of their resources are the problem.

We've gone from Chavez referring to the smell of sulfur from Bush and a hostile start with Obama, to his expresing positive things about Obama and wanting improved relations.

Gee, maybe Obama can even get to know him a bit and provide a better role model and advice than Castro for him. Regardless, it's a lot better than the Bush approach.

I saw that the book Chavez handed Obama on the history of economic exploitation of South America has shot up to #2 on Amazon. Maybe he can inform Obama, too.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: loki8481
because you legitimize them and their views

Going out of your way to be nice to someone like Chavez is silly, he is a petty dictator that despises the US, the only reason he is being "nice" to the messiah is because he wants to ride the coat tails of his popularity.

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no ??,, you got two out of three going good there.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,869
10,179
136
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

Yea....uhhh...we actually don't talk to either of them. So I guess you are proving your oppositions point. You make this game easy.
We have been trying to talk to them for years though.
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.

Have you considered that there may be more to diplomacy than the "strength" of ones words?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,869
10,179
136
Originally posted by: n yusef
Have you considered that there may be more to diplomacy than the "strength" of ones words?

I oppose the notion that this is a time for humility towards our detractors. They need a stern message.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.

Yeah if you're some kind of Troglodyte. To me it sounds diplomatic but then a lot of you aren't use to seeing our leaders acting diplomatic, at least not in the last 8 years so I guess you have an excuse for not understanding it .

 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: n yusef
Have you considered that there may be more to diplomacy than the "strength" of ones words?

I oppose the notion that this is a time for humility towards our detractors. They need a stern message.

That may be so. However, you can give a stern message after a handshake or even a bow. We should concern ourselves not with Mr. Obama's etiquette, but with his policy.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

Yea....uhhh...we actually don't talk to either of them. So I guess you are proving your oppositions point. You make this game easy.
We have been trying to talk to them for years though.

Yeah, but we always make tremendous demands as a precondition for talking.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.

Yeah if you're some kind of Troglodyte. To me it sounds diplomatic but then a lot of you aren't use to seeing our leaders acting diplomatic, at least not in the last 8 years so I guess you have an excuse for not understanding it .

I'd like to discuss the type of Troglodyte Jaskalas is.

To his credit, the problem isn't his concern over the President excessively apologizing, as if that's always a good, diplomatic thing to do. We don't need Obama apologizing to Al Queda.

The problem is his ignorance and arrogance. These cause him to view apologizing for what he did the same as if he had apologized to Al Queda, and that's his mistake.

Because he can't tell the difference, he is the Troglodyte you mention - Jaskalas is a supporter of a thuggish Unites States bullying people, filled with injustice for 'the weak'.

That's how Troglodyte's work - whether it's the mafia who wiill tolerate plenty of evil by the boss, but if he 'goes soft' worrying about the victims of their crimes, they oppose him, or a nation's dctator who might use terrible means to keep power, but is viewed as 'weak' if he reduces the abuses.

But I may as well be typing in another language for all Jaskalas is going to get any of the problem with his views. He doesn't understand things like 'justice'.

But if we need someone to go act in violence against an enemy, I'm sure he's great. He just needs someone to make the decisions for him who to attack, who has a clue.


 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
12
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

We have been talking to North Korea about their nuclear program since Clinton was in office 16 years ago and we are in worse shape today than then.

The same with Iran. While we talk they build nuclear weapons.

Yea....uhhh...we actually don't talk to either of them. So I guess you are proving your oppositions point. You make this game easy.
We have been trying to talk to them for years though.

I was under the impression that the US actively does not maintain diplomatic relations with either of those countries. Meaning, we choose not to talk to them directly.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.

Mr Gingrich said that handshaking and talking "sends a poor message to enemies of America". That is why I put the question in the thread title.

I am not sure how admitting past mistakes is the same as getting raped.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
Topic Title: Are Handshaking and Talking a Sign of Weakness?
Topic Summary: Do they deliver the wrong message?

Depends on the message. BTW, what WAS Obama's message?

"And so if we are practicing what we preach and if we occasionally confess to having strayed from our values and our ideals, that strengthens our hand," Obama said. "That allows us to speak with greater moral force and clarity around these issues."

Sounds weak, like he is apologizing for Bush. He might as well have bent over while delivering it.

This is the only topic of discussion where I found myself disagreeing with you. I think that setting aside preconceived notions, and presenting ourselves as equals, opens the doors previously closed. If we are then rejected after abasing ourselves then the fault falls on them and will be seen as so by the rest of the world. This gives us credibility on the national stage that previously didn't exist.