is Hamas a terrorist organization?

[Jhhnn]

I think you meant 1967.

Also, three states doesn't work. Israel has no incentive to support a Pal state in the West Bank while Gaza continues to be run by Hamas. If what is desired is abandonment of settlements and other concessions, you aren't going to see it without adequate security guarantees and that cannot happen so long as Hamas continues to run Gaza.

Israel has never intended a two state solution. They've been lying all along. Hamas in Gaza is no excuse for their ongoing actions in the West Bank. Perpetual occupation & expropriation are their obvious goals. They intend to have it all. If America didn't have a self imposed guilt trip over the Holocaust we wouldn't be chumps for Israeli propaganda.

 

[woolfe9998]

Israel has never intended a two state solution. They've been lying all along. Hamas in Gaza is no excuse for their ongoing actions in the West Bank. Perpetual occupation & expropriation are their obvious goals. They intend to have it all. If America didn't have a self imposed guilt trip over the Holocaust we wouldn't be chumps for Israeli propaganda.

No, Netanyahu has never intended a two state solution. "Israel" is not one person or one political party.

Israel as a country has in fact agreed to a 2-state solution now three times. Once when proposed by the British. Again when proposed by the UN. The third time they proposed it themselves. The Pals have rejected it all three times.

And you come here and say it's Israel who doesn't support a 2 state solution? What a joke.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, Netanyahu has never intended a two state solution. "Israel" is not one person or one political party.

Israel as a country has in fact agreed to a 2-state solution now three times. Once when proposed by the British. Again when proposed by the UN. The third time they proposed it themselves. The Pals have rejected it all three times.

And you come here and say it's Israel who doesn't support a 2 state solution? What a joke.

And yet they keep taking & America keeps buying their bullshit, as you are. Funny how that works. You're simultaneously arguing that Israeli voters won't endorse any honest two state solution & that it's just Bibi in the same breath.

 

[woolfe9998]

And yet they keep taking & America keeps buying their bullshit, as you are. Funny how that works. You're simultaneously arguing that Israeli voters won't endorse any honest two state solution & that it's just Bibi in the same breath.

No, that is not what I said at all. I said they wouldn't vote to give the Pals a state while Hamas remained in power.

And you still aren't addressing the Pals' failure to accept a state when offered to them. Because on this entire topic, you are thoroughly full of shit.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, Netanyahu has never intended a two state solution. "Israel" is not one person or one political party.

Israel as a country has in fact agreed to a 2-state solution now three times. Once when proposed by the British. Again when proposed by the UN. The third time they proposed it themselves. The Pals have rejected it all three times.

And you come here and say it's Israel who doesn't support a 2 state solution? What a joke.

Even if they do agree and I don't want to argue that point, I would myself be very reluctant to agree to a two state solution where the other state has as a major objective my destruction.

If I were asked to offer a solution to the P I dilemma, I would start with offering Palestinians who support a two state solution minus the Israel destruction an autonomous area to govern and build there a functioning government that could challenge Hamas via real improvements in the quality of life and I would do what I could to make sure life was in real fact better by offering

 

[rommelrommel]

It‘s a little telling that you immediately jump to insinuating that I hate Israel because I’m critical of their long running campaign to grab as much of the West Bank as they can.

So as long as you can get support of the people of your country, everything you do is right? Russians keep electing Putin, I guess annexing Crimea was the right thing to do.

I fully understand the reality of why Israel can continue to usurp the West Bank. Hamas is awful, and so long as Hamas is there, the domestic politics support hard liners. Just because Israel can do something, doesn’t mean they should. You seem pretty willing to blame the Palestinians in the West Bank for the actions of Hamas in Gaza despite the people of the West Bank having virtually no access to Gaza. You want a “practical” solution, so tell me exactly how the Palestinians in the West Bank can practically fix Hamas and their hold on Gaza.

 

[woolfe9998]

It‘s a little telling that you immediately jump to insinuating that I hate Israel because I’m critical of their long running campaign to grab as much of the West Bank as they can.

I guess you are replying to my post? You didn't quote it.

So as long as you can get support of the people of your country, everything you do is right? Russians keep electing Putin, I guess annexing Crimea was the right thing to do.

Nope, never said that. I was talking about the reality of being a leader of any democracy. Not "right" or "wrong."

Russia doesn't have free elections, BTW. Putin kills all his opponents. So bad analogy.

I fully understand the reality of why Israel can continue to usurp the West Bank. Hamas is awful, and so long as Hamas is there, the domestic politics support hard liners. Just because Israel can do something, doesn’t mean they should. You seem pretty willing to blame the Palestinians in the West Bank for the actions of Hamas in Gaza despite the people of the West Bank having virtually no access to Gaza. You want a “practical” solution, so tell me exactly how the Palestinians in the West Bank can practically fix Hamas and their hold on Gaza.

I'm not blaming the West Bank pals over what Hamas is doing. I'm saying the reality of the situation is that you aren't going to get any Israeli leader to make the concessions you suggest until Hamas has been removed. I mean, just look at what lesson Hamas has taught Israeli voters. They pulled out of Gaza and disbanded their settlements. Then they installed Hamas and then the rocket attacks. Great incentive for them to try it again in the West Bank?

Hamas has empowered the Israeli right, and that will not end until Hamas isn't there any more. That IS the reality of the situation, whether you like it or not.

 

[Moonbeam]

I guess you are replying to my post? You didn't quote it.



Nope, never said that. I was talking about the reality of being a leader of any democracy. Not "right" or "wrong."

Russia doesn't have free elections, BTW. Putin kills all his opponents. So bad analogy.



I'm not blaming the West Bank pals over what Hamas is doing. I'm saying the reality of the situation is that you aren't going to get any Israeli leader to make the concessions you suggest until Hamas has been removed. I mean, just look at what lesson Hamas has taught Israeli voters. They pulled out of Gaza and disbanded their settlements. Then they installed Hamas and then the rocket attacks. Great incentive for them to try it again in the West Bank?

Hamas has empowered the Israeli right, and that will not end until Hamas isn't there any more. That IS the reality of the situation, whether you like it or not.

It looks little different to me than Democrats trying to negotiate with conservatives except the Israelis have more brains. You don't negotiate with people who are sworn to kill you.

I would favor, however, maximum efforts not to make them want to do that other than by fear and intimidation.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, that is not what I said at all. I said they wouldn't vote to give the Pals a state while Hamas remained in power.

And you still aren't addressing the Pals' failure to accept a state when offered to them. Because on this entire topic, you are thoroughly full of shit.

Which doesn't explain evictions in Jerusalem or ongoing expansion into the West Bank. Hamas is just an all purpose boogeyman, cover for Israeli intentions to take it all. If they intended to leave anything for the Pals outside Gaza, then they would do so. They've talked a two state solution for 40 years even as they've made it functionally impossible. So long as America is willing to swallow the lies they will continue in that direction.

 

[rommelrommel]

Which doesn't explain evictions in Jerusalem or ongoing expansion into the West Bank. Hamas is just an all purpose boogeyman, cover for Israeli intentions to take it all. If they intended to leave anything for the Pals outside Gaza, then they would do so. They've talked a two state solution for 40 years even as they've made it functionally impossible. So long as America is willing to swallow the lies they will continue in that direction.

It seems to boil down to:

Hamas is doing bad things, and all Palestinians are responsible whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank.
Because of Hamas domestic politics are on the side of all the hard liners priorities, including settlements.
Therefore, fuck em all.

 

[Heartbreaker]

One man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

I am left wing on most topics. This is not one of them.

This cycle repeats every few years.

Hamas stockpiles rockets, when they have huge supply they target Israeli civilians, while hiding behind their own civilians.

Israel retaliates and tries to destroy the Hamas capability to keep launching, and there are civilian casualties as a result.

At which point Hamas, will try to use propaganda to blame Israel for defending itself.

This is ALL on Hamas. They are the instigator in each of these upheavals, and they directly target civilians, hide behind civilians and hope to profit from civilian deaths on both sides.

Eventually the current cycle will fade out, and Hamas will start stockpiling rockets for the next round...

 

[darkswordsman17]

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

I am left wing on most topics. This is not one of them.

This cycle repeats every few years.

Hamas stockpiles rockets, when they have huge supply they target Israeli civilians, while hiding behind their own civilians.

Israel retaliates and tries to destroy the Hamas capability to keep launching, and there are civilian casualties as a result.

At which point Hamas, will try to use propaganda to blame Israel for defending itself.

This is ALL on Hamas. They are the instigator in each of these upheavals, and they directly target civilians, hide behind civilians and hope to profit from civilian deaths on both sides.

Eventually the current cycle will fade out, and Hamas will start stockpiling rockets for the next round...

That argument is the same argument the Nazis used for what they did.

 

[woolfe9998]

What you claim I wrote.

It seems to boil down to:

Hamas is doing bad things, and all Palestinians are responsible whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank.
Because of Hamas domestic politics are on the side of all the hard liners priorities, including settlements.
Therefore, fuck em all.

What I actually wrote:

I'm not blaming the West Bank pals over what Hamas is doing.

You're a lair, and a coward. Next time mischaracterize things I said to me. Don't hide over in the other corner with a guy you assume will agree with you.

 

[fskimospy]

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

I am left wing on most topics. This is not one of them.

This cycle repeats every few years.

Hamas stockpiles rockets, when they have huge supply they target Israeli civilians, while hiding behind their own civilians.

Israel retaliates and tries to destroy the Hamas capability to keep launching, and there are civilian casualties as a result.

At which point Hamas, will try to use propaganda to blame Israel for defending itself.

This is ALL on Hamas. They are the instigator in each of these upheavals, and they directly target civilians, hide behind civilians and hope to profit from civilian deaths on both sides.

Eventually the current cycle will fade out, and Hamas will start stockpiling rockets for the next round...

While I agree that Hamas is both a terrorist organization and a party that deserves a large share of the blame for the current conflict the reality of the situation is that the current Israeli government is slowly but surely (and illegally) building settlements for the express purpose of making a Palestinian state non-viable and that has to be taken into account.

Just as you shouldn’t let Hamas off the hook you can’t let Israel’s current government off the hook.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Just as you shouldn’t let Hamas off the hook you can’t let Israel’s current government off the hook.

But the question in this thread, was "Is Hamas a Terrorist organization".

 

[nutxo]

While I agree that Hamas is both a terrorist organization and a party that deserves a large share of the blame for the current conflict the reality of the situation is that the current Israeli government is slowly but surely (and illegally) building settlements for the express purpose of making a Palestinian state non-viable and that has to be taken into account.

Just as you shouldn’t let Hamas off the hook you can’t let Israel’s current government off the hook.

Israel has a right to defend itself. Biden gave the fuckers money and they took that as an okay to launch rockets into random neighborhoods.

The philistines have no right to that land. Instead of spouting left wing talkin points you can actually look at history that goes back 2000 years and see that Israel existed until the Romans destroyed that society.

 

[rommelrommel]

What you claim I wrote.



What I actually wrote:



You're a lair, and a coward. Next time mischaracterize things I said to me. Don't hide over in the other corner with a guy you assume will agree with you.

Stay mad.

You can say you don't blame the West Bank Palestinians all you want, but they're the ones paying the price for a problem they didn't create and have no way of solving.

Whether Israel can or not, is it right for them to continue to usurp the West Bank?

 

[fskimospy]

But the question in this thread, was "Is Hamas a Terrorist organization".

So?

 

[Heartbreaker]

So?

There are endless other questions on the middle east mess that could occupy a lifetime. I am only addressing the one.

 

[fskimospy]

There are endless other questions on the middle east mess that could occupy a lifetime. I am only addressing the one.

The actions of the Israeli government are directly related and understanding Hamas requires understanding the Israeli government’s role.

Imagine a thread where someone asked if the WW2 French resistance was a terrorist organization. The answer to that is clearly yes. Should we not discuss the larger context? (And to be clear I am not equating Israel and the Nazis, this is just an example of why your logic doesn’t hold up)

 

[Heartbreaker]

The actions of the Israeli government are directly related and understanding Hamas requires understanding the Israeli government’s role.

And to understand Israeli government action, would require a discussion going back the creation of Israel and the endless attempts by their Muslim neighbors to finish the genocide that Hitler started.

 

[fskimospy]

And to understand Israeli government action, would require a discussion going back the creation of Israel and the endless attempts by their Muslim neighbors to finish the genocide that Hitler started.

Great, so we agree that in order to discuss Hamas we need to understand the context of the conflict they exist in, which was of course the point of my post that you took issue with.

We should all condemn Hamas, they are a vile organization, but we also need to look at why it is that people turn to them, and any reasonable person would accept that Israel’s actions are partially responsible.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Great, so we agree that in order to discuss Hamas we need to understand the context of the conflict they exist in, which was of course the point of my post that you took issue with.

No we don't. Just pointing out that I am not getting involved in decades of cause and effect going back to the WW2 at minimum.

Hamas are terrorists. Full Stop. I don't give any fucks about their reasons.

Their latest attempt to win sympathy by purposefully causing innocent civilian deaths on both sides, is an abject failure when it comes to me.

 

[fskimospy]

No we don't. Just pointing out that I am not getting involved in decades of cause and effect going back to the WW2 at minimum.

Hamas are terrorists. Full Stop. I don't give any fucks about their reasons.

Okay then, so therefore you are of a similar opinion about the French Resistance, who were undeniably terrorists as well. After all, you don’t give any fucks about reasons and surely you wish to remain logically consistent.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Okay then, so therefore you are of a similar opinion about the French Resistance, who were undeniably terrorists as well. After all, you don’t give any fucks about reasons and surely you wish to remain logically consistent.

I just finished saying I wasn't interested in revisiting ancient history.

All I see here is you trying to gain sympathy for terrorists.