Is god pissed?

[ch33zw1z]

I think a major theme in my efforts here in posting is against what I believe is one way to describe the cancer that affects and threatens to destroy humanity and it is the arrogance of certainty. It isn’t an issue I find easy to tackle because I am pretty certain I am right.

Which is a trait that seems to be in religious persons.

Again, by the numbers that I provided you, there's about 500-600 million actual non religious, non theistic person. I would strongly disagree that this people group is as closed minded as your average religious person.

I believe that most of the major religions are bridge to reality created by people for a particular geographical location at a particular time in history, all different yet all bridges to the same place, a psychological transformation of consciousness, a kind of revelation or awakening, or God Consciousness.

So in other words, by today's rhetoric, the major religions stick with claims of truth based on feels. Sounds "woke" to me, classic projecting from that bunch again

The problem, of course is the believers who believe that believing itself is that transformation and all of the non believing fools who believe the same but opposite thing, that religious believe itself is a joke.

You should really say spiritual belief, as religious belief is a huge problem. There's nothing inherently wrong with spiritual belief, but belief in a religion is toxic in many cases.

Yes, most religious people worship the bridge without crossing and the non-religious laugh at their gullibility, all unaware that always and ever there are those that cross to a different reality and understand that what they crossed was one of many bridges. For the many who cross via a bridge far fewer cross without one. I believe that crossing over, to awaken is the most important thing that can happen to a human being.

The awakening is different for everyone. For me, it was realizing my evangelical upbringing was full of hypocrisy, lies, hate presented as love was really a horrible way to be. And now realizing that billions upon billions of religious person are the same way is pretty sad.

For most of the world, then, there are two types of people, believers who make a mockery of their religion and those who then also shit on them and their bridge.

You're leaving out the most important one, believers that mock other believers.

Those who cross are neither certain in belief or doubt. They know. They are in the world but not of it.

You just described a zealot. You know, the kind that will slaughter their fellow man because they know without a shadow of a doubt that it will secure their place in whatever pleasure filled afterlife image they adhere too.

I recommend less arrogance of disrespect, but you know what good that does.

Sure, it does so much when people are so assured in their whatever.

Here's an article you may find interesting. I just stumbled across in the other day https://www.wired.com/story/psychol...red&utm_social-type=owned&mbid=social_twitter

 

[Moonbeam]

Which is a trait that seems to be in religious persons.

Again, by the numbers that I provided you, there's about 500-600 million actual non religious, non theistic person. I would strongly disagree that this people group is as closed minded as your average religious person.

I was not saying equally closed minded generally, but in one specific area

So in other words, by today's rhetoric, the major religions stick with claims of truth based on feels. Sounds "woke" to me, classic projecting from that bunch again

I don’t follow how this is supposed to apply to what I said. I expressed an opinion as to why one truth leads to many different expressions.

. You should really say spiritual belief, as religious belief is a huge problem. There's nothing inherently wrong with spiritual belief, but belief in a religion is toxic in many cases.

I lack your confidence that many make the distinction.

The awakening is different for everyone. For me, it was realizing my evangelical upbringing was full of hypocrisy, lies, hate presented as love was really a horrible way to be. And now realizing that billions upon billions of religious person are the same way is pretty sad.

Sad indeed, but that isn’t the kind of awakening to which I refer. When I realized what you describe here the sadness created a state of utter hopelessness from which I both had to escape and knew there was on exit from. A tiger below a tiger above, fingers weakening clinging to a root on a cliff and a strawberry appeared. It tasted so good. A transformation for which there are no words and if there are they are not it. One knows or one doesn’t but to know removes all doubt. Try explaining intoxication to someone someone who hasn’t tasted wine.

You're leaving out the most important one, believers that mock other believers.

I think believers who make a mockery of their religion covers them well enough

You just described a zealot. You know, the kind that will slaughter their fellow man because they know without a shadow of a doubt that it will secure their place in whatever pleasure filled afterlife image they adhere too.

I think rather that I described a state of certainty created by actual experience rather than the kind you refer to, certainty of belief taken on so called religious authority like a book that says it is the word of God.

Sure, it does so much when people are so assured in their whatever.

Here's an article you may find interesting. I just stumbled across in the other day https://www.wired.com/story/psychol...red&utm_social-type=owned&mbid=social_twitter

Definitely an interesting article. There is much to learn when blind men examine an elephant or men of wisdom slowly build a staircase out of a basement into the light.

I do find the notion that over thousands of years men have stumbled on techniques that heal and incorporate them into religious practices rather than that people who have healed themselves understand the nature and cure from their own mental illness.

Ask yourself if the techniques described would be especially effective in countering the effects of self hate. Can you think of a better attitude for a self hater to have than gratitude.

 

[dank69]

Do you know any non-believers who believe that non-belief is less the truth than what the God believers believe. Isn’t the reason they do not believe is because of lack of evidence and it is the job of reason to tell the truth no matter what others may feel? Does that not imply they actually believe that non-belief is superior? That doesn’t mean necessarily that they believe themselves superior but that’s not what I meant.

If you are a non-believer you are so because you believe that non-belief fits the facts and belief is delusional. As a result of that certainty you effectively create your own personal ska red cow that expresses itself as such a person having closed their ears along with the same self satisfied arrogance of certainty and you will also fight like hell to maintain that condition. You become a motivated non- believer as closed off to a different experience as any religious bigot. The story you tell yourself will, however, be completely different.

But look at the responses I get in this thread when I say that the God they don’t believe can’t possibly exist but that what God really is is real.

Note the lack of motivation to improve on what they believe. God is not a thing out there but a conscious state and people have arrived at the experience of that state via religion for thousands of years. It is a state of conscious beyond belief or doubt, a state in which the self disappears and all there is if God or a number of other essentially meaningless words.

Those who know know and those who do not, do not. But you won’t seek without humbling desire.

I just wanted to tell you my world was transformed by the smallest of peeks, a single instant in which I disappeared. There are those, I believe, who know much more and can disappear at will. It would be nice, I think, to wish that for people.

While I agree with you that many non-believers fit your characterizations here, you can't possibly believe they all do. Are we counting agnostics or just atheists in the category of "non-believers"?

As an agnostic myself, it seems this belief system is superior from a reasonable or logical viewpoint, but who says reasonable or logical viewpoints are superior? Certainly not me. I prefer it for myself, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone.

All this is beside the point though as you still have not answered my actual question. The one that exposes your extreme bias on this matter. The one that exposed an extremely malicious belief you seem to hold.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I was not saying equally closed minded generally, but in one specific area

Right, because looking at it as a whole reveals what closed mindedness really is.

I don’t follow how this is supposed to apply to what I said. I expressed an opinion as to why one truth leads to many different expressions.

Sorta, you expressed an opinion that's akin to "all roads lead to rome", or in other words why multiple religions really just offer the same thing in the end.

I lack your confidence that many make the distinction.

That's not an us problem, it's a critical thinking problem.

Sad indeed, but that isn’t the kind of awakening to which I refer. When I realized what you describe here the sadness created a state of utter hopelessness from which I both had to escape and knew there was on exit from. A tiger below a tiger above, fingers weakening clinging to a root on a cliff and a strawberry appeared. It tasted so good. A transformation for which there are no words and if there are they are not it. One knows or one doesn’t but to know removes all doubt. Try explaining intoxication to someone someone who hasn’t tasted wine.

But it is the same type of awakening based on my physiological make up. Not everyone's built the same, but humanity is prone to certain things all the same. Your opinion seems to be that if someone hasn't experienced something, then they're incapable of understanding it, correct? If that's the case, then empathy and sympathy aren't a thing unless you've experienced it. For example, since I've never had cancer, I couldn't possibly explain what it's like or share emotions with someone who has.

I think believers who make a mockery of their religion covers them well enough

I disagree, and so do the victims of religious based conflicts.

I think rather that I described a state of certainty created by actual experience rather than the kind you refer to, certainty of belief taken on so called religious authority like a book that says it is the word of God.

It's the same thing. Doesn't matter if it's a physical experience, existential experience, whatever....if it lands you at the same place of certainty then it will lead to zealotry. Whether that zealot turns violent isn't set it stone.

Definitely an interesting article. There is much to learn when blind men examine an elephant or men of wisdom slowly build a staircase out of a basement into the light.

I do find the notion that over thousands of years men have stumbled on techniques that heal and incorporate them into religious practices rather than that people who have healed themselves understand the nature and cure from their own mental illness.

Ask yourself if the techniques described would be especially effective in countering the effects of self hate. Can you think of a better attitude for a self hater to have than gratitude.

You and I agree here, self hate is a huge factor in bad behavior.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Ewe betcha' She is.

 

[Muse]

Is God pissed?

The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God. - William Blake

From The Marriage of Heaven and Hell "Proverbs of Hell" (1790 - 1793)

 

[Muse]

There is no god other than you. If you are pissed, God is pissed. If you are not pissed, God is not pissed. Simple as that.

 

[Moonbeam]

While I agree with you that many non-believers fit your characterizations here, you can't possibly believe they all do. Are we counting agnostics or just atheists in the category of "non-believers"?

As an agnostic myself, it seems this belief system is superior from a reasonable or logical viewpoint, but who says reasonable or logical viewpoints are superior? Certainly not me. I prefer it for myself, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone.

All this is beside the point though as you still have not answered my actual question. The one that exposes your extreme bias on this matter. The one that exposed an extremely malicious belief you seem to hold.

Look, all of the Gods you hear religious people speak of, some external thingi, there is no way to know if such a being exists or doesn't that I know of. And yet people believe. Nobody can be faulted, again as far as I know for not believing. Could there be something missing from this. Could there be a reason that men invent gods because of some unusual psychological experience. In the space of no time at all I experienced a flip of a switch that ended black hopelessness and left only quiet peace. I call it Grace and there is no way on earth that my ego could have achieved it. It is a mystical experience. If everybody had such an experience the world would be totally different. It is our attitude that creates our reality. I see two ways there, to die to hope or to love so deeply one becomes. In either case it's transcendent to ego awareness, a self that is separate from everything. The lover and the Beloved are one and the same thing. This is a theory if you haven't experienced it yourself. I believe that what would be malicious would be to hide this truth from you. I have no other need than to express what I believe, I see that as a moral imperative. I don't need for you to believe. I have already won. I defeated the Nothing. What you want to do with my words is entirely up to you. The miraculous is out there waiting for seekers.

 

[Moonbeam]

Is God pissed?

The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God. - William Blake

From The Marriage of Heaven and Hell "Proverbs of Hell" (1790 - 1793)

Reminds me of a Sufi story about a lion that took refuge in a farmer's barn for the night disturbing some of the animals. When the farmer came to find the source of the disturbance the lion thought to himself, if he knew who is here he wouldn't be searching so nonchalantly.

From the marriage of heaven and hell, I would say, refers to the collapse of duality afforded by, let us call it, a mystical experience of unity. No doubt in my mind he had it. I also call it the integration of opposites at a higher level of understanding, or if you like, God consciousness.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

What you want to do with my words is entirely up to you.

I ignore them, no matter how many there are.

 

[Moonbeam]

Right, because looking at it as a whole reveals what closed mindedness really is.



Sorta, you expressed an opinion that's akin to "all roads lead to rome", or in other words why multiple religions really just offer the same thing in the end.



That's not an us problem, it's a critical thinking problem.



But it is the same type of awakening based on my physiological make up. Not everyone's built the same, but humanity is prone to certain things all the same. Your opinion seems to be that if someone hasn't experienced something, then they're incapable of understanding it, correct? If that's the case, then empathy and sympathy aren't a thing unless you've experienced it. For example, since I've never had cancer, I couldn't possibly explain what it's like or share emotions with someone who has.



I disagree, and so do the victims of religious based conflicts.



It's the same thing. Doesn't matter if it's a physical experience, existential experience, whatever....if it lands you at the same place of certainty then it will lead to zealotry. Whether that zealot turns violent isn't set it stone.



You and I agree here, self hate is a huge factor in bad behavior.

Look, I have put up a fight as a courtesy in the hope, thereby, to better clarify why our opinions differ. Too much of that and it begins to look like my need is to defend rather than to help you see. I could address your points but I doubt I would have any more success. I believe that from the lens you use, logic and critical thinking, you will do with a parrot what Mulla Nasrudin did, trim its claws and beak and paint its feathers brown so it would look more like a proper bird. But do please note that I distinguished the certainty of believing from the certainty of knowing, two different animals for anybody who knows anything. You just don't know wine if you have never drank it much less being intoxicated with the love of God. I was given a gift priceless beyond belief. Would love to share it with friends.



.

 

[Moonbeam]

I ignore them, no matter how many there are.

Yes but I have the same freedom to do with your words as I wish which is that when I hear, as I often do, how people ignore me, the very fact then tell me so tells me, also, they are lying. You want me to feel as insignificant as you were made to feel. Been there, done that. What pisses you off is that I know how insignificant I am and you aren't ready to.

Look on the bright side. Only nobodies are happy so you are almost there.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Look, I have put up a fight as a courtesy in the hope, thereby, to better clarify why our opinions differ. Too much of that and it begins to look like my need is to defend rather than to help you see. I could address your points but I doubt I would have any more success. I believe that from the lens you use, logic and critical thinking, you will do with a parrot what Mulla Nasrudin did, trim its claws and beak and paint its feathers brown so it would look more like a proper bird. But do please note that I distinguished the certainty of believing from the certainty of knowing, two different animals for anybody who knows anything. You just don't know wine if you have never drank it much less being intoxicated with the love of God. I was given a gift priceless beyond belief. Would love to share it with friends.



.

Spoken like a believer certain in his faith.

 

[cytg111]

Look, I have put up a fight as a courtesy in the hope, thereby, to better clarify why our opinions differ. Too much of that and it begins to look like my need is to defend rather than to help you see. I could address your points but I doubt I would have any more success. I believe that from the lens you use, logic and critical thinking, you will do with a parrot what Mulla Nasrudin did, trim its claws and beak and paint its feathers brown so it would look more like a proper bird. But do please note that I distinguished the certainty of believing from the certainty of knowing, two different animals for anybody who knows anything. You just don't know wine if you have never drank it much less being intoxicated with the love of God. I was given a gift priceless beyond belief. Would love to share it with friends.

I mean, you could probably make money preaching this stuff to a larger audience. Jesus? Please.
Anyway, the sequence of atoms is the sequence of atoms, entropy is what entropy is, you can try and will spiritual magic into it all you want, I predict the same thing will happen: Nothing.

You sure, you're not he one with ideas of grand design? you know, instead of everyone else?

You rub me the right way, as many religious factual manifestations does: You wanna do good. Help a brother out. A sister. Make love, not war.

But, you know, next deer leader gonna be a motherfucker.

 

[Moonbeam]

Spoken like a believer certain in his faith.

You don't see the irony. Or am I to believe you yourself don't have any faith in what you just said.

An alternative logic apparent to me is option two: you can't see the difference.... Remember to keep an open mind. A very great obstacle to learning is that it requires unlearning the assumption we already know what truth is.

 

[MtnMan]

You don't see the irony. Or am I to believe you yourself don't have any faith in what you just said.

An alternative logic apparent to me is option two: you can't see the difference.... Remember to keep an open mind. A very great obstacle to learning is that it requires unlearning the assumption we already know what truth is.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

[ch33zw1z]

You don't see the irony. Or am I to believe you yourself don't have any faith in what you just said.

An alternative logic apparent to me is option two: you can't see the difference.... Remember to keep an open mind. A very great obstacle to learning is that it requires unlearning the assumption we already know what truth is.

I don't assume to know any truth until theres verifiable evidence to back it up.

I'm not as enlightened as you.

No Moonie, it's you who dont see the irony in your own professed certainty.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Every since the people elected Trump back in 2016 it seems that everything has gone to hell. Gone to hell in the biblical sense. And as we know, hell is gods business as is punishment and plagues and some of the good stuff tossed in, but mostly a lot of hell, plague and punishment. And its getting worse, not better.
When will we get a clue?

First we had gods people having been deceived by Trump and tricked into voting for Trump. And look at what Trump did to those poor people, did to their religion, by turning supposedly loving forgiving Christians into hateful spiteful deceitful bigots and racist. And all while turning them from worshipers of god into worshipers of Trump.
This certainly would not make god.... a happy Camper.
So then, and was it any wonder, that once Trump entered the scene humanity began to experience those plagues sent from above. The covid, the resulting lockdowns, the fires, the floods, the tornadoes, a shit load of plagues of biblical proportions. I bet you can add to the list what I overlooked?

And gods not done with us.
New variants, more contagious variants, potentially deadlier variants on the horizon. More floods, stronger storms, killer tornadoes, extreme weather coast to coast.
When will we get a clue?

Strange, but I would bet that if one composed a graph comparing the influence of Trump vs the rise in death and destruction, the lines on that graph would be identical. As Trump became stronger and his influence grew, equally grew the plagues and climate disasters resulting in death. And it doesn't matter that Donald Trump is no longer president because for many people out there Trump still remains the president. Trump is considered the president for many, all while the plagues persist.
When will we get a clue?

How bad will it get? Does it have to get?
What next do we have to look forward to?
Earthquakes? Nuclear war? Wars against superpowers? Meteor's? Extinction?
How bad must it get before the deceived of the world, those deceived by Donald Trump, repent?
When will the easily fooled, the Christians, the people who follow Trump admit their wrongdoings and turn away from the darkness? Or can they?
Is it too late, is Trump's grasp too strong, are they in so deep that repentance is no longer an option?

Think about it....
We have layer upon layer of lies and deceit.
We have the initial Trump deceptions, layered upon by the conspiracies, then layered upon by the cults, the cults of Q and the Alt Right and the Proud Boys, layers upon layers from cult movement after cult movement. With so many layers stacked between the reality and the non reality can the lost souls out there, the once Christian population have any hope of digging themselves out? Or are they forever lost within Trump, and within the deception while all the rest of us endure plague after plague.
Yeah, I think god is pissed.
And when will we ever get a clue?

Well . . . .

I was telling people in late 2015 that Trump was Satan's Spawn. It's like a "Damien" or an "Omen" movie. It's worse than "The Exorcist", because all the grief is not contained in some three-story house in Georgetown.

I'm not going to brag on this any more at all. I just saw it coming. I can't say that I'm better off or worse off for it. Here -- everything inside the house seems to be getting worse in parallel to the goings-on outside. My brother just called 911 to have them take his ass to the hospital. And I have to figure out what to do, because I can't leave Moms alone in the house without someone to watch her. I don't have her morning pills ready, and hardly know where to start, because that was Bro's job. And if Moms doesn't have her pills, she's going to drive me batshit-crazy so I maybe have an aneurism, call 9-11 -- and then, what?

If I have prescience of any kind, I'd say it's mostly because I read Milton's "Paradise Lost" 54 years ago, and Defoe's "Journal of the Plague Year -- 1665" 58 years ago. Or maybe it was because I just watched the occult movies . . .

But it's not helping here -- today -- at all . . . . .

 

[cytg111]

Well . . . .

I was telling people in late 2015 that Trump was Satan's Spawn. It's like a "Damien" or an "Omen" movie. It's worse than "The Exorcist", because all the grief is not contained in some three-story house in Georgetown.

I'm not going to brag on this any more at all. I just saw it coming. I can't say that I'm better off or worse off for it. Here -- everything inside the house seems to be getting worse in parallel to the goings-on outside. My brother just called 911 to have them take his ass to the hospital. And I have to figure out what to do, because I can't leave Moms alone in the house without someone to watch her. I don't have her morning pills ready, and hardly know where to start, because that was Bro's job. And if Moms doesn't have her pills, she's going to drive me batshit-crazy so I maybe have an aneurism, call 9-11 -- and then, what?

If I have prescience of any kind, I'd say it's mostly because I read Milton's "Paradise Lost" 54 years ago, and Defoe's "Journal of the Plague Year -- 1665" 58 years ago. Or maybe it was because I just watched the occult movies . . .

But it's not helping here -- today -- at all . . . . .

It goes back to a few things

1. You can be right and dead at the same time and
2. If you dont take care of yourself you wont be able to take care of anyone else.

How many people are depended on your brother? Your mother? The collective stands to loose what depending on loosing who?

edit: I was screaming cambridge analytica about that time too... peeps that was "you crazy" back then still comes up to me like im some fucking prophet.

 

[Denly]

Sorry to break it to you OP, the world is MUCH bigger than Trump America. As fk'ed as he was he is FAR from the worst leader in the history of mankind, at the min he didn't start a war.

Mankind has been committing every sin that has a word for it in the name of god(s) since the dawn of time, don't think that god in your mind would care what that little Trump did.

 

[cytg111]

Sorry to break it to you OP, the world is MUCH bigger than Trump America. As fk'ed as he was he is FAR from the worst leader in the history of mankind, at the min he didn't start a war.

Mankind has been committing every sin that has a word for it in the name of god(s) since the dawn of time, don't think that god in your mind would care what that little Trump did.

Oh man, you are missing one key ingredient in that formula.

Biggest. Fucking. Military. Complex. Ever.

By orders of magnitude.

If the US falls, if US democracy falls, it is going to have plane wide consequences... Fuck the little bastard that is Trump.. see the larger picture goddamnit.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't assume to know any truth until theres verifiable evidence to back it up.

I'm not as enlightened as you.

No Moonie, it's you who dont see the irony in your own professed certainty.

May I have your verifiable evidence that what I call knowing via experience is the same as what you are calling zealous belief, please. After all it was I who made the joke about my own certainty. What I know is that I can tell belief from experience because I don't believe. From that absence I can see that what people belief they can't actually know because nobody knows anything unless they know that. To not know is to know everything. Not knowing is silence, being, presence, a conscious state, not words and ideas. As long as you think you will chase your tail imagining you are getting somewhere. You don't see the danger you are in. Thought is fear. Thought requires the past and creates the future. Thought is never here now. Thinking is division, the thinker and what is thought about. The thinker is a fragment of self that imagines itself to be whole. There was a time when you had no thought because you had no words to think in, but you were still here and far more than you are today.

Well . . . .

I was telling people in late 2015 that Trump was Satan's Spawn. It's like a "Damien" or an "Omen" movie. It's worse than "The Exorcist", because all the grief is not contained in some three-story house in Georgetown.

I'm not going to brag on this any more at all. I just saw it coming. I can't say that I'm better off or worse off for it. Here -- everything inside the house seems to be getting worse in parallel to the goings-on outside. My brother just called 911 to have them take his ass to the hospital. And I have to figure out what to do, because I can't leave Moms alone in the house without someone to watch her. I don't have her morning pills ready, and hardly know where to start, because that was Bro's job. And if Moms doesn't have her pills, she's going to drive me batshit-crazy so I maybe have an aneurism, call 9-11 -- and then, what?

If I have prescience of any kind, I'd say it's mostly because I read Milton's "Paradise Lost" 54 years ago, and Defoe's "Journal of the Plague Year -- 1665" 58 years ago. Or maybe it was because I just watched the occult movies . . .

But it's not helping here -- today -- at all . . . . .

I remember the frustration of seeing that Democrats were hopelessly unaware that Trump was going to win because they didn’t know how to message. They believed nobody could be so stupid as to vote for him. They couldn’t see, we’re motivated not to see the deep appeal Trump has for people who hate themselves and additionally are looking for somebody to hurt as payback. The appeal was obvious to me because I know how I am and the monster within.

 

[Denly]

Oh man, you are missing one key ingredient in that formula.

Biggest. Fucking. Military. Complex. Ever.

By orders of magnitude.

If the US falls, if US democracy falls, it is going to have plane wide consequences... Fuck the little bastard that is Trump.. see the larger picture goddamnit.

The biggest picture is nuke, nothing full scale will happen as long as there are nukes. I don't even see Taiwan fail even if Trump hold power 4ever, US and it's people seen to be perfectly happy acting as world police. And did I say Trump appeared does not like war? You might also forget EU and Asia pacific can hold the fort.

 

[dank69]

Look, all of the Gods you hear religious people speak of, some external thingi, there is no way to know if such a being exists or doesn't that I know of. And yet people believe. Nobody can be faulted, again as far as I know for not believing. Could there be something missing from this. Could there be a reason that men invent gods because of some unusual psychological experience. In the space of no time at all I experienced a flip of a switch that ended black hopelessness and left only quiet peace. I call it Grace and there is no way on earth that my ego could have achieved it. It is a mystical experience. If everybody had such an experience the world would be totally different. It is our attitude that creates our reality. I see two ways there, to die to hope or to love so deeply one becomes. In either case it's transcendent to ego awareness, a self that is separate from everything. The lover and the Beloved are one and the same thing. This is a theory if you haven't experienced it yourself. I believe that what would be malicious would be to hide this truth from you. I have no other need than to express what I believe, I see that as a moral imperative. I don't need for you to believe. I have already won. I defeated the Nothing. What you want to do with my words is entirely up to you. The miraculous is out there waiting for seekers.

What if people react differently to this "grace" experience? What if everyone has had one and they just reacted differently than you? What if everyone has had multiple "grace" experiences and they all react differently based purely on their current state of mind while having the experience?

 

[arredondo]

Every since the people elected Trump back in 2016 it seems that everything has gone to hell. Gone to hell in the biblical sense. And as we know, hell is gods business as is punishment and plagues and some of the good stuff tossed in, but mostly a lot of hell, plague and punishment. And its getting worse, not better.
When will we get a clue?
.
.
.

Putting aside all the infinitely worse times people endured in history outside of 2016, it is more accurate to actually quote the bible when trying to describe how things are "in a biblical sense". The main reason for taking that approach is that we would be letting God speak for himself (since it is called "God's word" for that reason). This is what I'll be doing below to answer your question there in a more general sense, "When will we get a clue?"

First off, your description of hell itself is not fully in line with the bible. It tells us what hell was originally made for, and it wasn't for people initially. Among other parts of the scriptures, we can read here who hell was originally made for:

~~~~~
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;'"
~~~~~

So, yes, hell was made by God, but only for Satan and his demons for rebelling against Him. Over time, people ended up being condemned to go there as well because of something many of us do not want to acknowledge: a person's free will. Each and every human was created by God in His image (Genesis 1:27) and will exist for eternity. We can choose to spend that eternity with God in heaven, but if we refuse, only hell is left according to Jesus:

~~~~~
Matthew 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
~~~~~

The Father in heaven is holy, that is to say, he is completely separated from sin (defined as defying God, His will, and His ways). To be in His presence in heaven, each individual must be 100% unblemished from sin as He is. It makes sense when you think about it. According to the bible, the first sin committed by Adam and his wife Eve produced all the other sins that have tormented the world ever since. If it messed up the earth so badly, why would God allow it to mess up heaven as well?

So Plan A for an eternal relationship with God is simple: just don't sin. Of course, everybody (except Jesus) messed up Plan A:

~~~~~
Romans 3:10
"As it has been written: 'There is none righteous, not even one;'"

Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?"
~~~~~

The last verse is especially revealing... no one knows how sinful they are to a God that is perfectly sin-free in every way. That includes, you, me, our parents, the nice lady down the street, Martin Luther King, the apostles in the bible, Mary the mother of Jesus... everyone committed sins.

Since God declared that the penalty for defying Him (sin) is death (Genesis 2:17), you and I and every other person who has ever lived should be dead after even one sin. That's what the penalty for sin is according to God's law, as we read in the first half of this verse:

~~~~~
Romans 6:23a
"For the wages of sin is death,..."
~~~~~

Understand that the bible's definition of death is *separation*, and it states that everyone dies at least once because of hereditary sin from Adam, which is the separation of the real person from our home in the body. The spirit is the real you and me, and when it separates from the body, that's the physical death.

The second, optional death is when we choose to be eternally separated from our Creator in the afterlife by the choice we make to do so down here on earth. If you don't want to spend eternity with God, He won't force you. However, the only place one can be completely separated from God is hell.

Everything good comes from God, so everything good will only be with Him in heaven after this world passes away. Everything awful is not God, and that type of eternal existence will only be with Satan and his demons who will be tormented in hell.

Think of our five senses in this context for a moment since they are how we perceive the existence around us. Even Hitler enjoyed physically pleasant experiences here on earth, right? A cool breeze on a summer day, warm water in the bathtub, good health, etc. Those and more were all gifts from God.

In hell, all God's gifts are no more. So in the absence of "good" physical feelings, what will Hitler experience in hell? All that is left is the worst possible feelings, which can only be described as burning alive in fire (as written here among many other bible verses):

~~~~~
Revelation 21:8
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
~~~~~

BTW, the original Greek language that this verse was written in uses the word "pharmakeia" translated into English as "sorcery". It's how we got our word for pharmaceuticals in part because people used substances to get all lit up on drugs back in the day while performing godless, heathen rituals. The sorcerers of today are drug users, according to the bible.

Back to Hitler, on earth, he enjoyed wonderful smells on earth (delicious food freshly cooked, the perfumes of lovely ladies, flowers, etc.), but in hell he'll endure the worst possible smells of brimstone and sulfur, not to mention the burning of his own flesh and perhaps that of other sinners.

What will he see and hear in hell? Nothing close to the wonderful sights and sounds he enjoyed while alive on earth:

~~~~~
Matthew 8:12
"While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
~~~~~

No doubt what he'll taste will be just as terrible. Again, hell is the absence of God (by their choice), and without God one can only experience the worst of everything the senses can perceive.

With that said, the worst possible experience for Hitler and every other sinner who goes to hell for eternity is not just what their senses will perceive. Even more painful will be the knowledge that each of them will have of knowing all the times the Lord lovingly and patiently attempted to establish a relationship with them and they refused.

It is because Jesus Himself on judgement day will show each sinner every act, word and wicked thought they ever had before being thrown into the lake of fire that the person will not deny their ultimate fate of eternal doom.

Here is one of many places where Jesus, who has been said to have spoken about hell in the bible more than any other topic, explains what will be judged in the unrepentant:

~~~~~
Matthew 12:36
"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment."

Matthew 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
~~~~~

Note that the saved people do not have to go through this judgement event because all of their sins were paid for by Jesus on the cross. They can go into the afterlife without a blemish on their account for the Lord to evaluate as a result:

~~~~~
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
~~~~~

Why not just let us all into heaven despite our sinful selves? We couldn't exist in His holy presence, and anyway, our sin would pollute heaven as it did on earth as said above, making things just as miserable as they have been for all of human history (not just since 2016, lol).

Beyond that, by ignoring His own law, God would not be a rightful judge. It can't be possible for someone to accurately say, "God is not as righteous as judge Gonzalez because that judge ALWAYS followed the law and God made exceptions."

Thankfully, out of love God can and did go beyond His law by giving us a Plan B. According to perhaps the most well known verse in the bible, we read how much love He has for us when He sent His son to die for us because of our sin in our place:

~~~~~
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
~~~~~

See how that worked? The law is fulfilled. Death is the penalty for sin, without exception. But that penalty was voluntarily paid by Jesus when He died on the cross (and rose from death three days later) for your sins and mine. Here's the second half of that verse I quoted above about the wages of sin being death:

~~~~~
Romans 6:23b
"...but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
~~~~~

Eternal life is a FREE GIFT... just take it! One only has to believe, so it could not be any easier. You can't earn it, because everyone deserves eternal separation from God, according to His law, due to the problem of sin. Everyone who overestimates their "goodness" as a ticket to heaven and ignores that belief in accepting God's free gift alone simply wants to ignore the bible so they can continue living life their way apart from Him:

~~~~~
Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

John 3:19
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
~~~~~

So it was through grace and mercy that Plan B is available (Jesus dying on the cross for sins and being resurrected) to everyone who simply and sincerely accepts a relationship with their Creator through belief. In John 3:16, the "whosoever believes" statement shows that it is all an exercise of free will.

This includes everyone who is maturely capable of making this choice (which excludes the young who die early or the mentally enfeebled who all go to heaven by grace). The only thing the Lord ask is that one responds favorably to what He has revealed of His nature to them.

For those of us who know of what Jesus did by dying for our sins and resurrecting to heaven, we are to respond to that to be saved. If a more vague understanding of their Creator is all one knows, (i.e. an ancient islander who merely believes in the nameless One who created her, created the stars and created the universe around her), that's good enough for a fair God if He is acknowledged in her life:

~~~~~
Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Psalm 8:3-4
"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You care for him? "
~~~~~

So not only is God still perfect in judgment (His law was 100% fulfilled), but He is also perfect in grace. Our understanding of grace from reading the bible is that it is defined as unmerited favor. Any blessing from God that He gives out for no other reason but His love for us is unmerited favor. Grace is extended to everyone who believes, but that gift has to be accepted by each individual or it does no good to whoever refuses it because the Lord will not force us to have a relationship with Him.

With that understood, we can better understand John 1:14, where Jesus is accurately described as being "filled with truth and grace". He is filled with truth because the law of God (as written in the entire bible) is 100% honored, and He is filled with grace because the Lord provides a way for every sinner to escape the penalty of death. Rich, poor, black, white, old, young, intelligent, simple-minded... the gift of salvation (accepted by faith in God alone) was made easy for everyone:

~~~~~
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not...wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

1 Timothy 2:4
"Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
~~~~~

Famed author C.S. Lewis once wrote that there are two kinds of people: those on earth who say to God "Thy will be done" and end up going to heaven, and those in the afterlife in judgement to whom God says "thy will be done" and go to hell. They chose to refuse the Lord's presence in their life, and God will sadly honor their terrible decision if they die still covered in their own sins.

That's how free will determines one's eternal destination, which more fully addresses your bible-related question "When will we get a clue?". I know you framed the post around the American politics of the day, but eternity goes beyond any of what we are experiencing now so I expanded the focus a bit.

And just to avoid assumptions and not be put in a box, let me say that I happen to be a Christian that chose not to vote for Trump in 2016 or 2020. Regardless of one thinks of individual people of faith, ultimately one should look to what Christianity is all about from Christ Himself and the book that was written in His name (the bible) as I was doing above.