Is god pissed?

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arredondo

Senior member
Sep 17, 2004
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Hey folks, be nice. You won't persuade a devout religious person to change by lashing into them and possibly reinforcing a belief that non-religious people are amoral and vicious. Use logic; use evidence; you don't have to flatter, but do show that you can be non-religious while maintaining some baseline respect.
Thank you. :)
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
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Eh, there's not a person of age that has never had it cross their mind that something they want to do that God forbids is very wrong. The same is true about a feeling coming over a person that they should do the right thing in a situation.

Some people will try to claim it's simply one's conscience, but when it is encouragement to do the right thing in accordance with the bible (and avoid doing something bad), it is actually the Lord communicating to our spiritual ears what is morally right and what is morally wrong:
<bullshit clipped>
First, I have deleted the bible babble bullshit from the book of fiction you posted.
Second, your premise is pure bullshit.

Your premise is that without your belief and fear of your vindictive sky daddy, you would be a complete asshole, rape, rob, murder or what ever you took a fancy to that day? That is some sick fucking thinking, and I am being generous when I use the word thinking.
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,395
5,609
136
Hey folks, be nice. You won't persuade a devout religious person to change by lashing into them and possibly reinforcing a belief that non-religious people are amoral and vicious. Use logic; use evidence; you don't have to flatter, but do show that you can be non-religious while maintaining some baseline respect.
Your belief is "supposed" to be a private relationship between you and what ever sky daddy you believe in.

So fucking keep it private.

Thank you...
 

Pohemi420

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
4,967
2,427
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Hey folks, be nice. You won't persuade a devout religious person to change by lashing into them and possibly reinforcing a belief that non-religious people are amoral and vicious. Use logic; use evidence; you don't have to flatter, but do show that you can be non-religious while maintaining some baseline respect.
:rolleyes:

I understand your sentiment, but...have you been reading this thread? 10 pages of nonstop bible nonsense? Did you see the attempts to use logic and reasoning with the fanatic, and the wall they bounced off of?

After the first few pages of the same old bullshit...my patience and tolerance for these imbeciles goes out the fucking window. Keep humoring him if you care to...it's only encouragement in the end.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
8,851
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:rolleyes:

I understand your sentiment, but...have you been reading this thread? 10 pages of nonstop bible nonsense? Did you see the attempts to use logic and reasoning with the fanatic, and the wall they bounced off of?

After the first few pages of the same old bullshit...my patience and tolerance for these imbeciles goes out the fucking window. Keep humoring him if you care to...it's only encouragement in the end.
The vicious attacks bounce off, too. I figure I might as well show restraint and hope one day he actually tries to understand the non-religious mindset instead of treating it like a one-way conversation.
 
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Pohemi420

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
4,967
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The vicious attacks bounce off, too. I figure I might as well show restraint and hope one day he actually tries to understand the non-religious mindset instead of treating it like a one-way conversation.
That is true. I feel like both are equally ineffective after so many attempts at reason fall flat. It's obviously still my choice to respond in either manner, even if/when I feel it unnecessary/ineffectual...so I should have just stopped replying to him.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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That is true. I feel like both are equally ineffective after so many attempts at reason fall flat. It's obviously still my choice to respond in either manner, even if/when I feel it unnecessary/ineffectual...so I should have just stopped replying to him.
As I see it there is no arguing against anyone on any path that has led them to Grace. However they define it, if rigidly as a result of only one path or if they view Grace as available on many paths, the experience itself will preclude any doubt about the fact that it's called Grace in various traditions for a reason. It carries within it certainty that before and after one finds one's mental state transformed and in a way one can't help but recognize as better. Anybody brilliant of less gifted knows the difference between inner misery and inner peace. I would recommend considering the notion that none are excluded except by an unwillingness to expose oneself to the dangers of being vulnerably loving again. It hurt to be told you are worthless and self realization means opening those old wounds.
 

arredondo

Senior member
Sep 17, 2004
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Mai72, I'll give my response to you below in sections...
<Part I of IV>
You are engaged in a fallacy and its not my fault that you do a bad job in regard to representing your religion. You might want to take a debate class my friend. The bible is the claim. Its not the proof. Its why you need to go outside the bible for your claims. Can you do that? I seriously doubt it. But anyway, I have Muslim friends who would tell you that the bible has been corrupted, and that YOU are rejecting ALLAH (God) and YOU will be judged because YOU didn't follow scripture in the Quarn. There is only one God, and that is Allah. Jesus message was corrupted and there is only ONE God. Not Jesus. This is what a Muslim would say, and so YOU are doomed for hell. I can play the same game as you, and we get nowhere.
The problem with your attempt to "play the same game as me" is you're becoming frustrated that I refuse to play your "game" at all. Instead, I will simply repeat what I've said in various posts so far... I'm not interested in pushing my opinion on you, and I fully admit it wouldn't do any good if I tried.

Again, I am focused instead on allowing God to address you Himself as it were, using His word that is available to everyone to know what He has to say about life, the universe, and everything. At most I simply elaborate here and there on what He already spells out for us to know, but in the end, your debate is with Him, not me.

It is God alone, as I've shown several times (like in this post), that chooses how He makes Himself real to each and every one of us (including you). There's nothing I alone can do to satisfy your self-described requirements of Him... you are His creation, so it is His prerogative to reveal His truth in any way He sees fit.

Also, you state that Jesus is not God? Join the club as there are plenty of members who've thought the way you do, although the Lord has heard it all before. In fact, the 100% innocent Son of God was literally convicted to die by the Sanhedrin (a Jewish council of Pharisees and Sadducees) after being offended by His claim to deity:

~~~~~
John 10:31-33
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
~~~~~

The scriptures I've quoted throughout the thread give just a few of His responses to you as to the legitimacy of His deity, and how He died to pay for your sins (so you don't have to pay for them yourself). So one thing you won't be able to claim if you have to stand before your Creator in judgement to determine your eternal destination is that you were ignorant of what He asked of you while still here on earth.

<Part II of IV>
Matthew 19:17- 21 The young man asked Jesus what good thing I must do to obtain eternal life. Jesus replied "If you want to enter life keep the commandments." The young man replied "Which ones" Jesus replied "do not steal, do not murdeer, and do not commit adultery." The young man said "All of these I have kept. What else do I lack." Jesus told him“If you want to be perfect, go, SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS AND GIVE TO THE POOR, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”…
The passage you cited right here is not that difficult to follow, and the general concept being described easily syncs up with verses and principals expressed throughout the entire word of God. However, let's first post the complete passage your quotation partially references since some of Jesus' words in them that were omitted directly counter your false claim about His deity above:

~~~~~
Matthew 19:16-22
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
~~~~~

I'll directly address what the bible is actually expressing on the points you made about it in a second. It is of critical importance, however, to first see that Jesus is clearly letting this young man know (and all of us by extension) that He is God on earth.

The young man casually calls Jesus "good" in the general sense that we all make use of the word with his opening statement. Jesus completely grabs that word and forces all of us to consider what "good" really means in its fullness... perfectly righteous with no sin in our lives whatsoever.

Do you measure up to that definition? That is, in your entire life have you ever acted, said, or extensively thought in a way that is in contrary to God's will as expressed in our hearts (via the Holy Spirit) and His word? If you ever lied, you're a liar (verbal sin). If you've knowingly taken anything without permission, you're a thief (action sin). If you've lusted after someone that's not your wife, you're a fornicator (sinful thoughts - Matthew 5:28).

Only a single Person in history went through an entire life of full self-awareness and never sinned - Jesus Christ:

~~~~~
1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth."

1 John 3:5
"You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin."

2 Corinthians 5:21
"For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."
~~~~~

Therefore, Jesus was correct when He told the young rich man that He was the only Person that is "good". Not you, not me, not Martin Luther King, not even his dear mother Mary. All of us have sinned, and therefore all of us need a Savior.

Since Jesus does indeed claim to be God, there are only three conclusions one can make about His life on this earth: either He was the biggest liar of all time, or He was the most popular insane person of all time, or He was in fact true to His word in everything the bible expresses on His behalf from Genesis to Revelation.

This ultimately means that only He has the qualifications (let alone the love and compassion) to provide you with an escape from hell as well as the ability to enter into heaven. You simply need to have a relationship with the Lord through belief in what He has done for you.

<Part III of IV>
Funny how Christians like yourself forget to include this passage. You like to cherry pick parts in the bible. But the truth is how many of the sick have you helped? Have you given away many of your possessions to the poor? My guess is NOPE. This passage is coming from the horses mouth. Jesus is saying what you must do, and yet you ignore what he is telling this young man. If there was a Jesus he had a ministry. He took care of the sick, the poor, the old and the helpless. What have you done lately my friend. My guess NOT MUCH. And yet you think you deserve to be allowed into heaven? Yea, right. The one thing Jesus wasn't doing was telling people they are doomed for hell. He was Jewish. Jews have a totally differnt view on the afterlife. You need to get your bible game up my friend. its very very weak.
Seriously speaking, I think you are asking questions that many people (including myself) ask of God all the time, and that's perfectly fine. I can in no way claim to know what God says in the bible about everything (not even close), but my faith is at a point to where I trust the Lord so much that I can accept the fact that He doesn't have to reveal everything to me in order to believe in Him.

It's actually not even possible for any of us to comprehend even 1% of His greatness, but there is still more than enough that the Holy Spirit reveals of Him to guide us in the right direction through all aspects of life and beyond. We only need to be real ourselves in the pursuit of His truth, and not playing games to prove we're right and He's somehow wrong (the sin of pride and unbelief).

With that said, I'm scratching my head at to how I can be accused of avoiding something mentioned in the bible. Let's start by agreeing that yes, I've failed to quote every single verse of its 66 books (so far at least :p), but by all means, let's take a closer look at the rest of Matthew 19:16-22.

What is NOT being stated by Jesus in the passage you referenced is that a way to eternal life is to sell his earthly possessions and bless the poor with the proceeds. That's religion and there are dozens of verses and scriptures emphasizing that our actions and deeds do absolutely nothing to make us right with God. Here's are just two:

~~~~~
Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 11:6
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
~~~~~

Grace by definition is a free gift from God that is not earned and not even deserved. You just take what is offered (through faith) and it is yours. Good deeds ("works") have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, which I elaborate on below.

The statement you're strongly holding up as evidence for a way into heaven is in no way a commandment issued by the Lord to everyone who has ever lived (as you imply) any more than when Jesus asked the blind man to rub mud over his eyes in order to receive the gift of sight.

The reason Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor is twofold. The first reason is so obvious; you merely have to read on further to what Jesus says will happen if he does it:

~~~~~
"go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven"
~~~~~

So one of the two main reasons to sell his stuff and donate the money to the poor is to be rewarded in heaven. Jesus elaborates later on about earning treasures in heaven by doing good works here on earth in Matthew 6:19–21 if you want to learn more. That's pretty straight forward, so let's address the even bigger reason why Jesus had this specific command for him: the young man was an idolator, and idolatry was keeping salvation away from him.

What is idolatry? It is prioritizing absolutely anything in this life above one's relationship with God. Not only obvious sinful stuff, like gambling or cheating one's way into power/money, etc., but idolatry can also be found in otherwise innocent activity like focusing on any relationship more than the one with God, or trying to promote in a business more than pursing genuine closeness with the Lord. It is no coincidence that of all of the ten commandments, the very first one tackles idolatry:

~~~~~
Exodus 20:3
"You shall have no other gods before Me."
~~~~~

There are scores of people who have sadly made it clear to God that they want to go to heaven, but on THEIR terms and not His. Some will go so far as to declare that they'll do what the Lord wants except, for example, give up an illicit, sinful relationship that they know He does not approve of in order to have their cake and eat it too. It won't work.

God sees the heart, and as long as the prioritizing of idolatry exists, He won't enter a relationship with that person. It's not that they have to give up their "idols" first (let Him do that for you instead), but you can't knowingly hang onto it in defiance either as well.

What happens next with the young man that questioned Jesus? His idolatry shows why he didn't receive salvation. He loved his possessions and didn't want to sell them to give the money to the poor because he valued all of that above the invitation to follow Jesus. Instead, he went away sad. You can't have your salvation cake and eat the moldy cake of embracing sin, too. That's idolatry.

Moving on, here's a tl;dr summary of my response to your accusation of skipping these scriptures before I elaborate a bit on the rest of the passage... after the young rich man asks Jesus what he needs to do for eternal life, the Lord basically tells Him first the "Plan A" and then the "Plan B" method for going to heaven that I completely fleshed out in my very first post in this thread. Go check it out for the detailed write-up, but here are the key sentences re-quoted from it:

>>>>>
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.
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So Plan A for an eternal relationship with God is simple: just don't sin. Of course, everybody (except Jesus) messed up Plan A:
~~~~~
Romans 3:10
"As it has been written: 'There is none righteous, not even one;'"
Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?"
~~~~~
.
.
.
Thankfully, out of love God can and did go beyond His law by giving us a Plan B. According to perhaps the most well known verse in the bible, we read how much love He has for us when He sent His son to die for us because of our sin in our place:
~~~~~
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
~~~~~
See how that worked? The law is fulfilled. Death is the penalty for sin, without exception. But that penalty was voluntarily paid by Jesus when He died on the cross (and rose from death three days later) for your sins and mine.
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>>>>>

There you go... the bible directly addresses your accusation towards me here. Jesus accurately explains that Plan A was for all of us to perfectly follow all of God's commandments for our lives to be saved. The young man sadly overestimated his own "goodness" by claiming he has done so his entire life, which is not unlike a lot of people to this day. Jesus doesn't challenge him on it (though we can see the problem in the young man's response if we know our bible) and instead He goes on to offer Plan B.

What you don't understand is what the details of Plan B are as described in these verses. The key phrase that applies to every one of us (including that young man) is found at the end of Jesus' words... "Come follow me." If you digest anything I write here in this entire post, please do so with this quote the most. Jesus is inviting the young man into a permanent relationship with Him, which was to be well beyond His traveling ministry on the earth, but also into eternal life, which answered the original question being asked by the young man... "what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?":

~~~~~
"Come follow Me."
~~~~~

That is "Plan B" in the simplest terms possible. Sure, Plan A (follow all of the commandments perfectly) can get a person into heaven, but it is the most exclusive path possible. It is so exclusive that only one Person was able to do it: Jesus Christ. The reason is because the law of God (holy list of do's and don'ts) while perfect was never able to save one's life. It can't because the penalty for committing ANY sin is death (according to Genesis 3), and there is nothing one can do to erase the stain of sin from their lives after it happens.

The bizarre thing is, literally billions upon billions of people throughout history have tried proving to God that they are "good" by trying oh-so-hard to never do wrong while always doing right. That's religion, not Christianity. Religion only leads to damnation in the pits of hell forever. Don't take my word for it... look how God describes the attempt at following commandments of right and wrong for salvation is all about, as written by Paul the apostle:

~~~~~
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory."
~~~~~

What were the "carved letters on stone"? The ten commandments, which were the first written words shared with humanity from God to further impress upon us the commandments He places on all of our hearts since the beginning of our existence.

So the key point that the passage makes clear is that the religious approach to salvation (following God's commandments) is a "ministry of death" and a "ministry of condemnation"! Again, the law is perfect, but it is us, people, who are imperfect at keeping God's law. Plan A can never work because trying to do so only leads to eternal damnation!

Plan B, however, is mentioned here as the "ministry of the Spirit" as well as the "ministry of righteousness". What does that mean? Well, note how Jesus explains the main reason why the Holy Spirit was sent to us after He died and resurrected in this verse:

~~~~~
John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"
~~~~~

So the ministry of the Spirit is testifying the gospel. That is, sharing the "good news" about salvation through Jesus Christ. We also know that "the ministry of righteousness" is all about Jesus as well:

~~~~~
Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
~~~~~

The end of the law (which is to put aside religion as a means to make ourselves right) is what Christ's act of love and sacrifice is all about. It is the way (the only way) for restoring a relationship with your Father in heaven through a relationship with Him. Trying to be good by just being good (with no "bad" committed at all), again, is the ultimate "exclusive" path to heaven that only Jesus was able to follow.

It is my sincere hope that one day you believe with the smallest bit of sincere faith that Jesus loves you, and that he has offered to you the only true way into heaven. His "Plan B" is the opposite of the ministry of death. It is the ultimate "inclusive" path by way of forgiveness. It is the free gift of grace that He offers to everyone whether they be rich or poor, black or white, old or young, male or female. All you have to do is receive it through belief and salvation is yours forever.

<Part IV of IV>
BTW, eternal seperation of God means ANNHILATION. That you will be annhilated from god. Not hell. Again, Jesus was JEWISH! Jews have a very different view on the afterlife. I've talked to many Jewish rabbis and they have all confirmed that exact same thought. JESUS NEVER SPOKE OF HELL. Not in the Christian sense. You should be less ignorant my friend. Bart Erhman goes over this in his book "Heaven and Hell." He talks about how the idea of hell was formed. Not like how you think, You are heavily indoctrinated.

Here let me enlighten you:


"EHRMAN: (Laughter) I know, exactly. This is the big surprise of the book, and it's the one thing people probably wouldn't expect because, you know, when I was growing up, I just assumed. This is the view of Christianity. So this must be what Jesus taught. This is what the Old Testament taught. And in fact, it's not right. Our view that you die and your soul goes to heaven or hell is not found anywhere in the Old Testament, and it's not what Jesus preached. I have to show that in my book, and I lay it out and explain why it's absolutely not the case that Jesus believed you died and your soul went to heaven or hell. Jesus had a completely different understanding that people today don't have."



"By the end of the 1st century, most Christian converts came from pagan rather than Jewish stock. As inhabitants of the Greco-Roman world, they brought with them their own “Greek” ways of thinking about bodies and souls, not the Jewish views of Jesus and his followers. This new generation of non-Jewish Christians continued to believe that justice would be done after death. But it would not be a bodily kingdom on Earth; it would be a spiritual kingdom in heaven above. For them, eternal life comes to souls after death, without the body. The souls of those who are not saved will also live on, in the torments of hell. This view (which first appears in two of the late writings of the New Testament, Luke and John) rapidly became the standard belief throughout all Christendom.

Jesus himself did not share these beliefs. But within a century, the vast majority of Christians believed that a soul would be judged after the body had died. Those who believed in Jesus would have eternal life, not in a bodily kingdom on Earth but in the spiritual realm above. This remains the belief of billions of people today."

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/is-god-pissed.2600352/post-40666555
Eh, annihilation is the complete obliteration of something. Nothing in the bible supports that at all when it comes to a sinner's final destination in hell. I mean, you continue to pound the table that Jesus never talks about hell despite the ton of quotes I posted from Him where He discusses exactly that, but for some additional, supporting bible verses that God made available to counter that false perspective (since my personal opinion doesn't matter), here you go...

~~~~~
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name"

Jude 1:7
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 13:42
"And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

Psalm 76:10
Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; the remnant of wrath You will put on like a belt."
~~~~~

^^^ Not annihilated, but "tormented" and "punished" in hell forever in a variety of awful ways described throughout the bible. If the righteous who are saved forever enjoy "everlasting life" (the Daniel verse), how is it not also forever the "shame and everlasting contempt" from the same verse for sinners who are thrown into the lake of fire?

Even this verse below talks about the first death (separation of the spirit from the body) and asks about how can be saved from the second death (separation of the spirit from God):

~~~~~
Psalm 89:48
"What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?"
~~~~~

Sheol was the general understanding of the realm of death during old testament times, since a full revelation of heaven and hell in more detail was fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of the One who came to save us all. Still, in the old testament times there was a general understanding of the afterlife expressed even before the life of Jesus revealed more details:

~~~~~
Job 19:25
"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will stand upon the earth."

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Habakkuk 2:4
"...the righteous shall live by his faith.”

Isaiah 53:5
"But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."
~~~~~

Like a lot of spiritual truths throughout the bible, chronologically God slowly revealed more and more details about heaven, hell, sacrifice for sins, salvation through faith alone, etc. over time until a lot of it was fulfilled by the life of Jesus. Any suggestion that the Lord was required to fully explain everything on day one is ridiculous.

I mean, the first prophecy of Jesus coming to deal with Satan happened in the early Genesis, and made no sense at all to people over thousands and thousands of years until Jesus eventually lived, died and came back from the dead to defeat death itself before one day returning to take out the devil directly (here's the curse from God to the evil one):

~~~~~
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel.”
~~~~~

Moving on, in case you're wondering, I did quote this verse in the other linked post I wrote earlier when I listed some extensive quotes from Jesus about hell:

~~~~~
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
~~~~~

To that point, I zeroed in on a common misunderstood aspect of what makes you "you" in my first post in this thread linked above. It actually indirectly addresses the reason why the destruction of the body and soul in hell is not total annihilation. Here's the relevant text:

>>>>>
"Understand that the bible's definition of death is *separation*, and it states that everyone dies at least once because of hereditary sin from Adam, which is the separation of the real person from our home in the body. The spirit is the real you and me, and when it separates from the body, that's the physical death.
The second, optional death is when we choose to be eternally separated from our Creator in the afterlife by the choice we make to do so down here on earth. If you don't want to spend eternity with God, He won't force you. However, the only place one can be completely separated from God is hell."
>>>>>

God told Adam that on the day that defied his Creator by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he "shall surly die" (Genesis 2:17). Physically, Adam lived 930 years according to the bible, so did God lie? No, because on the day Adam sinned, the real Adam ---> the spirit <--- was separated from the Lord. That spirit was never annihilated because no one as a spirit is annihilated.

Now in the verse Matthew 10:28 we see a more permanent outcome to a spirit in the afterlife of those who defy God with evil works of all types when they were alive. The body (which is the home of each spirit person) is said to be destroyed as well as the soul (which each spirit possess). The spirit itself, however, is eternal because it is the real "us" made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4). So it is the spirit that is permanently separated from God in the second death as it exists forever.

Ironically, the greatest source of pain for the condemned sinner is not the feeling of hellfire or seeing the deep, outer darkness or the non-stop sounds wailing and gnashing of teeth or the smell of sulfur and brimstone.

Instead it is the heartbreaking knowledge that God pursued them all their lives and they always rejected Him. The final verse in Psalms quoted above indicates that condemned sinners are well aware that they rejected the Lord, and in their horrific eternity of torment and suffering, they will spend it praising the God they should've glorified here on earth.

"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord."

++++++++++++++++++++++

One more thing before I end this post, Mai72. You're obviously an intelligent person, and I would not mock you by suggesting that you don't take your questions regarding life as we know it (as well as that in the life beyond) very seriously.

God knows your heart. Obviously there is plenty in His word that you weren't aware of when asking your questions and seeking answers from this source and that one. Why not start looking for what He has to say to you by reading the bible for yourself?

Even in this period of doubt in your life, He is willing and able to bring you into a more deeper understanding about Him, about yourself, and what is in store for your future. It's when He personalizes His presence in your life that it will be more real to you than you could imagine, and that happens primarily from the bible:

~~~~~
Romans 10:17
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
~~~~~

Consider starting with this verse below. No matter what sins you've committed in the past, or even those which you may be committing now, it is here where He offers this promise that you can embrace to be 100% true as you go forward in growing in His wisdom should you choose to do so:

~~~~~
John 6:37
"...and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
~~~~~

Read it on your own in the context of the full chapter in which it appears, and do so with an honest heart to what He has to say to your heart through it. In any case, God bless and take care. As for me, I'll continue to include you in my prayers.
 
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Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
10,987
1,363
126
Mai72, I'll give my response to you below in sections...

The problem with your attempt to "play the same game as me" is you're becoming frustrated that I refuse to play your "game" at all. Instead, I will simply repeat what I've said in various posts so far... I'm not interested in pushing my opinion on you, and I fully admit it wouldn't do any good if I tried.

Again, I am focused instead on allowing God to address you Himself as it were, using His word that is available to everyone to know what He has to say about life, the universe, and everything. At most I simply elaborate here and there on what He already spells out for us to know, but in the end, your debate is with Him, not me. It is God alone, as I've shown several times (like in this post), that chooses how He makes Himself real to each and everyone of us (including you). There's nothing I alone can do to satisfy your self-described requirements of Him... you are His creation, so it is His prerogative to reveal His truth in any way He sees fit.

Also, you state that Jesus is not God? Join the club as there are plenty of members who've thought the way you do, although the Lord has heard it all before. In fact, the 100% innocent Son of God was literally convicted to die by the Sanhedrin (a Jewish council of Pharisees and Sadducees) after being offended by His claim to deity:

~~~~~
John 10:31-33
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
~~~~~

The scriptures I've quoted throughout the thread give just a few of His responses to you as to the legitimacy of His deity, and how He died to pay for your sins (so you don't have to pay for them yourself). So one thing you won't be able to claim if you have to stand before your Creator in judgement to determine your eternal destination is that you were ignorant of what He asked of you while still here on earth.



The passage you cited right here is not that difficult to follow, and the general concept being described easily syncs up with verses and principals expressed throughout the entire word of God. However, let's first post the complete passage your quotation partially references since some of Jesus' words in them that were omitted directly counter your false claim about His deity above:

~~~~~
Matthew 19:16-22
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
~~~~~

I'll directly address what the bible is actually expressing on the points you made about it below in a second. It is of critical importance, however, to see that Jesus is clearly letting this young man know (and all of us by extension) that He is God on earth.

The young man casually calls Jesus "good" in the general sense that we all make use of the word with his opening statement. Jesus completely grabs that word and forces all of us to consider what "good" really means in its fullness... perfectly righteous with no sin in our lives whatsoever.

Do you measure up to that definition? That is, in your entire life have you ever did, said, or extensively thought in a way that is in contrary to God's will as expressed in our hearts (via the Holy Spirit) and His word? If you ever lied, you're a liar (verbal sin). If you've knowingly taken anything without permission, you're a thief (action sin). If you've lusted after someone that's not your wife, you're a fornicator (sinful thoughts - Matthew 5:28).

Only a single Person in history went through an entire life of full self-awareness and never sinned - Jesus Christ:

~~~~~
1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth."

1 John 3:5
"You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin."

2 Corinthians 5:21
"For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."
~~~~~

Therefore, Jesus was correct when He told the young rich man that He was the only Person that is "good". Not you, not me, not Martin Luther King, not even his dear mother Mary. All of us have sinned, and therefore all of us need a Savior.

Since Jesus does indeed claim to be God, there are only three conclusions one can make about His life on this earth: either He was the biggest liar of all time, or He was the most popular insane person of all time, or He was in fact true to His word in everything the bible expresses on His behalf from Genesis to Revelation.

This ultimately means only He has the qualifications (let alone the love and compassion) to provide you with an escape from hell and the ability to enter into heaven. You simply need to have a relationship with the Lord through belief in what He has done for you.



Seriously speaking, I think you are asking questions that many people (including myself) ask of God all the time, and that's perfectly fine. I can in no way claim to know what God says in the bible about everything (not even close), but my faith is at a point to where I trust the Lord so much that I can accept the fact that He doesn't have to reveal everything to me in order to believe in Him.

It's actually not even possible for any of us to comprehend even 1% of His greatness, but there is still more than enough that the Holy Spirit reveals of Him to guide us in the right direction through all aspects of life and beyond. We only need to be real ourselves in the pursuit of His truth, not playing games to prove we're right and He's somehow wrong (the sin of pride and unbelief).

Wit that said, I'm scratching my head at how I can be accused of avoiding something mentioned in the bible. Let's start by agreeing that yes, I've failed to quote every single verse of its 66 books (so far at least :p), but by all means, let's take a closer look at the rest of Matthew 19:16-22.

What is NOT being stated by Jesus is that a way to eternal life is to sell his earthly possessions and bless the poor with the proceeds. That's religion and there are dozens of verses and scriptures that emphasizing that our actions and deeds do absolutely nothing to make us right with God. Here's are just two:

~~~~~
Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 11:6
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
~~~~~

Grace by definition is a free gift from God that is not earned and not even deserved. You just take what is offered (through faith) and it is yours. Good deeds ("works") have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, which I elaborate on below.

The statement you're strongly holding up as a way to heaven is in no way is commandment issued by the Lord to everyone who has ever lived (as you imply) any more than when Jesus asked the blind man to rub mud over his eyes in order to receive the gift of sight.

The reason Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor is twofold. The first reason is so obvious, you merely have to read on further to what Jesus says will happen if he does it:

~~~~~
"go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven"
~~~~~

So one of the two main reasons to sell his stuff and donate the money to the poor is to be rewarded in heaven. Jesus elaborates further on earning treasures in heaven by doing good works here on earth in Matthew 6:19–21 if you want to learn more. That's pretty straight forward, so let's address the even bigger reason why Jesus had this specific command for him: the young man was an idolator, and idolatry was keeping salvation away from him.

What is idolatry? It is prioritizing absolutely anything in this life above one's relationship with God. Not only obvious sinful stuff, like gambling or cheating one's way into power/money, etc. Idolatry can be found in otherwise innocent activity like focusing on any relationship more than the one with God, or trying to promote in a business more than pursing genuine closeness with the Lord. It is no coincidence that of all of the ten commandments, the very first one tackles idolatry:

~~~~~
Exodus 20:3
"You shall have no other gods before Me."
~~~~~

There are scores of people who have sadly made it clear to God that they want to go to heaven, but on THEIR terms and not His. Some will go so far as to declare that they'll do what the Lord wants except, for example, give up an illicit, sinful relationship that they know He does not approve of in order to have their cake and eat it too. It won't work.

God sees the heart, and as long as idolatry exists, He won't enter a relationship with that person. It's not that they have to give up their "idols" first (let Him do that for you instead), but you can't knowingly hang onto it in defiance either as well.

What happens with the young man that questioned Jesus? His idolatry shows why he didn't receive salvation. He loved his possessions, didn't want to sell them and give the money to the poor because he valued all of that above the invitation to follow Jesus. Instead, he went away sad. You can't have your salvation cake and eat the moldy cake of embracing sin, too. That's idolatry.

Moving on, here's a tl;dr summary of my response to your accusation of skipping these scriptures before I elaborate a bit on the rest of the passage... after the young rich man asks Jesus what he needs to do for eternal life, the Lord basically tells Him first the "Plan A" and then the "Plan B" method for going to heaven that I completely fleshed out in my very first post in this thread. Go check it out for the detailed write-up, but here are the key sentences re-quoted from it:

>>>>>
.
.
.
So Plan A for an eternal relationship with God is simple: just don't sin. Of course, everybody (except Jesus) messed up Plan A:
~~~~~
Romans 3:10
"As it has been written: 'There is none righteous, not even one;'"
Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?"
~~~~~
.
.
.
Thankfully, out of love God can and did go beyond His law by giving us a Plan B. According to perhaps the most well known verse in the bible, we read how much love He has for us when He sent His son to die for us because of our sin in our place:
~~~~~
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
~~~~~
See how that worked? The law is fulfilled. Death is the penalty for sin, without exception. But that penalty was voluntarily paid by Jesus when He died on the cross (and rose from death three days later) for your sins and mine.
.
.
.

>>>>>

There you go... the bible directly addresses your accusation towards me here. Jesus accurately explains that Plan A was for all of us to perfectly follow all of God's commandments for our lives to be saved. The young man sadly overestimated his own "goodness" by claiming he has done so his entire life, which is not unlike a lot of people to this day. Jesus doesn't challenge him on it (though we can see the problem in the young man's response if we know or bible) and instead goes on to offer Plan B.

What you don't understand is what the details of Plan B are as described in these verses. The key phrase that applies to everyone of us (including that young man) is found at the end of Jesus' words... "Come follow me." If you digest anything I write here in this entire post, please do so with this quote the most. Jesus is inviting the young man into a permanent relationship with Him, which is well beyond His traveling ministry on the earth, but also into eternal life, which was the original question being asked:

~~~~~
"Come follow Me."
~~~~~

That is "Plan B" in the simplest terms possible. Sure, Plan A (follow all of the commandments perfectly) can get a person into heaven, but it is the most exclusive path possible. It is so exclusive that only one Person was able to do it: Jesus Christ. The reason is because the law of God (holy list of do's and don'ts) while perfect was never able to save one's life. It can't because the penalty for committing ANY sin is death (according to Genesis 3), and there is nothing one can do to erase the stain of sin from their lives after it happens.

The bizarre thing is, literally billions upon billions of people throughout history have tried proving to God that they are "good" by trying oh-so-hard to never do wrong while always doing right. That's religion, not Christianity. Religion only leads to damnation in the pits of hell forever. Don't take my word for it... look how God describes the attempt at following commandments of right and wrong for salvation is all about, as written by Paul the apostle:

~~~~~
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory."
~~~~~

What were the "carved letters on stone"? The ten commandments, which were the first written words shared with humanity from God to further impress upon us the commandments He places on all of our hearts since the beginning of our existence.

So the key point the passage makes clear is that the religious approach to salvation (following God's commandments) is a "ministry of death" and a "ministry of condemnation"! Again, the law is perfect, but it is us, people, who are imperfect at keeping God's law. Plan A can never work because trying to do so only leads to eternal damnation!

Plan B, however, is mentioned here as the "ministry of the Spirit" as well as the "ministry of righteousness". What does that mean? Well, note how Jesus explains the main reason why the Holy Spirit was sent to us after He died and resurrected in this verse:

~~~~~
John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"
~~~~~

So the ministry of the Spirit is testifying the gospel. That is, sharing the "good news" about salvation through Jesus Christ. We also know that "the ministry of righteousness" is all about Jesus as well:

~~~~~
Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
~~~~~

The end of the law (which is to put aside religion as a means to make ourselves right) is what Christ's act of love and sacrifice is all about. It is the way (the only way) for restoring a relationship with your Father in heaven through a relationship with Him. Trying to be good by just being good (with no "bad" committed at all), again, is the ultimate "exclusive" path to heaven that only Jesus was able to follow.

It is my sincere hope that one day you believe with the smallest bit of sincere faith that Jesus loves you, and that he has offered to you the only true way into heaven. His "Plan B" is the opposite of the ministry of death. It is the ultimate "inclusive" path by way of forgiveness. It is the free gift of grace that He offers to everyone whether they be rich or poor, black or white, old or young, male or female. All you have to do is receive it through belief and salvation is yours forever.


Eh, annihilation is the complete obliteration of something. Nothing in the bible supports that at all when it comes to a sinner's final destination in hell. I mean, you continue to pound the table that Jesus never talks about hell despite the ton of quotes I posted from Him where He discusses exactly that, but for some additional, supporting bible verses God makes available to counter that false perspective (since my personal opinion doesn't matter), here you go...

~~~~~
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name"

Jude 1:7
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 13:42
"And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

Psalm 76:10
Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; the remnant of wrath You will put on like a belt."
~~~~~
^^^ Not annihilated, but "tormented" and "punished" in hell forever in a variety of awful ways described throughout the bible. If the righteous who are saved forever enjoy "everlasting life" (the Daniel verse), how is it not also forever the "shame and everlasting contempt" from the same verse for sinners who are thrown into the lake of fire? Even this verse talks about the first death (separation of the spirit from the body) and asks about how can be saved from the second death (separation of the spirit from God):

~~~~~
Psalm 89:48
"What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?"
~~~~~

Sheol was the general understanding of the realm of death during old testament times, since a full revelation of heaven and hell in more detail was fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of the One who came to save us all. Still, in the old testament times there was a general understanding of the afterlife expressed even before the life of Jesus revealed more details:

~~~~~
Job 19:25
"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will stand upon the earth."

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Habakkuk 2:4
"...the righteous shall live by his faith.”

Isaiah 53:5
"But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."
~~~~~

Like a lot of spiritual truths throughout the bible, chronologically God slowly revealed more and more details about heaven, hell, sacrifice for sins, salvation through faith alone, etc. over time until a lot of it was fulfilled by the life of Jesus. Any suggestion that the Lord was required to fully explain everything on day one is ridiculous.

I mean, the first prophecy of Jesus coming to deal with Satan happened in the early Genesis, and made no sense at all to people over thousands and thousands of years until Jesus eventually lived, died and came back from the dead to defeat death itself before one day returning to take out the devil directly (here's the curse from God to the evil one):

~~~~~
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel.”
~~~~~

Moving on, in case you're wondering, I did quote this verse in the other linked post I wrote earlier when I listed some extensive quotes from Jesus about hell:

~~~~~
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
~~~~~

To that point, I zeroed in on a common misunderstood aspect of what makes you "you" in my first post in this thread linked above. It actually indirectly addresses the reason why the destruction of the body and soul in hell is not total annihilation. Here's the relevant text:

>>>>>
"Understand that the bible's definition of death is *separation*, and it states that everyone dies at least once because of hereditary sin from Adam, which is the separation of the real person from our home in the body. The spirit is the real you and me, and when it separates from the body, that's the physical death.
The second, optional death is when we choose to be eternally separated from our Creator in the afterlife by the choice we make to do so down here on earth. If you don't want to spend eternity with God, He won't force you. However, the only place one can be completely separated from God is hell."
>>>>>

God told Adam that on the day that defied his Creator by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he "shall surly die" (Genesis 2:17). Physically, Adam lived 930 years according to the bible, so did God lie? No, because on the day Adam sinned, the real Adam ---> the spirit <--- was separated from the Lord. That spirit was never annihilated because no one as a spirit is annihilated.

Now in the verse Matthew 10:28 we see a more permanent outcome to a spirit in the afterlife of those who defy God with evil works of all types when they were alive. The body (which is the home of each spirit person) is said to be destroyed as well as the soul (which each spirit possess). The spirit itself, however, is eternal because it is the real "us" made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4). So it is the spirit that is permanently separated from God in the second death as it exists forever.

Ironically, the greatest source of pain for the condemned sinner is not the feeling of hellfire or seeing the deep, outer darkness or the non-stop sounds wailing and gnashing of teeth or the smell of sulfur and brimstone.

Instead it is the heartbreaking knowledge that God pursued them all their lives and they always rejected Him. The final verse in Psalms quoted above indicates that condemned sinners are well aware that they rejected the Lord, and in their horrific eternity of torment and suffering, they will spend it praising the God they should've glorified here on earth.

"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord."

++++++++++++++++++++++

One more thing before I end this post, Mai72. You're obviously an intelligent person, and I would not mock you by suggesting that you don't take your questions regarding life as we know it (as well as that in the life beyond) very seriously.

God knows your heart. Obviously there is plenty in His word that you weren't aware of when asking your questions and seeking answers from this source and that one. Why not start looking for what He has to say to you by reading the bible for yourself?

Even in this period of doubt in your life, He is willing and able to bring you into more understanding about Him, yourself, and what is in store for your future. It's when He personalizes His presence in your life is when it will be more real to you than you could imagine, and that happens primarily from the bible:

~~~~~
Romans 10:17
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
~~~~~

Consider starting with this verse below. No matter what sins you've committed in the past, or even those which you may be committing now, it is here where He offers this promise that you can embrace to be 100% true as you go forward in growing in His wisdom should you choose to do so:

~~~~~
John 6:37
"...and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
~~~~~

Read it on your own in the context of the full chapter in which it appears, and do so with an honest heart to what He has to say to your heart through it. In any case, God bless and take care. As for me, I'll continue to include you in my prayers.
And again. You can't prove the Bible with the Bible. Its not my fault that you're a horrible debater, and don't understand fallacies and bias. Especially circular fallacy and confirmation bias. The problem with the Bible is you can quote scripture all day to make it sound exactly what you want it to say. And, people like you just LOVE to cherry pick verses. Oh, and you left out Exodus21 which advocates for owning and beating servants if they misbehave. And, you can trick them into serving you as well. Great morals there my friend. You can state what you feel god thinks, but those are just words. You don't know what a god thinks any more than a Muslim who claims that Allah is the one true god. Just words that have no meaning.

You need to come with better information my man. What you've come with is just absolutley horrible. I should quote scripture from the Quarn, but I'm busy so I'll leave you with some of Matt Dilhunty's (Atheist Experience) best moments. And a video on why the Bible supports slavery. Take care.

Matt Owns Theist: **NSFW (light cursing)**



Why the Bible Supports Slavery:

 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
10,987
1,363
126
Mai72, I'll give my response to you below in sections...

The problem with your attempt to "play the same game as me" is you're becoming frustrated that I refuse to play your "game" at all. Instead, I will simply repeat what I've said in various posts so far... I'm not interested in pushing my opinion on you, and I fully admit it wouldn't do any good if I tried.

Again, I am focused instead on allowing God to address you Himself as it were, using His word that is available to everyone to know what He has to say about life, the universe, and everything. At most I simply elaborate here and there on what He already spells out for us to know, but in the end, your debate is with Him, not me. It is God alone, as I've shown several times (like in this post), that chooses how He makes Himself real to each and everyone of us (including you). There's nothing I alone can do to satisfy your self-described requirements of Him... you are His creation, so it is His prerogative to reveal His truth in any way He sees fit.

Also, you state that Jesus is not God? Join the club as there are plenty of members who've thought the way you do, although the Lord has heard it all before. In fact, the 100% innocent Son of God was literally convicted to die by the Sanhedrin (a Jewish council of Pharisees and Sadducees) after being offended by His claim to deity:

~~~~~
John 10:31-33
The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
~~~~~

The scriptures I've quoted throughout the thread give just a few of His responses to you as to the legitimacy of His deity, and how He died to pay for your sins (so you don't have to pay for them yourself). So one thing you won't be able to claim if you have to stand before your Creator in judgement to determine your eternal destination is that you were ignorant of what He asked of you while still here on earth.



The passage you cited right here is not that difficult to follow, and the general concept being described easily syncs up with verses and principals expressed throughout the entire word of God. However, let's first post the complete passage your quotation partially references since some of Jesus' words in them that were omitted directly counter your false claim about His deity above:

~~~~~
Matthew 19:16-22
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
~~~~~

I'll directly address what the bible is actually expressing on the points you made about it below in a second. It is of critical importance, however, to see that Jesus is clearly letting this young man know (and all of us by extension) that He is God on earth.

The young man casually calls Jesus "good" in the general sense that we all make use of the word with his opening statement. Jesus completely grabs that word and forces all of us to consider what "good" really means in its fullness... perfectly righteous with no sin in our lives whatsoever.

Do you measure up to that definition? That is, in your entire life have you ever did, said, or extensively thought in a way that is in contrary to God's will as expressed in our hearts (via the Holy Spirit) and His word? If you ever lied, you're a liar (verbal sin). If you've knowingly taken anything without permission, you're a thief (action sin). If you've lusted after someone that's not your wife, you're a fornicator (sinful thoughts - Matthew 5:28).

Only a single Person in history went through an entire life of full self-awareness and never sinned - Jesus Christ:

~~~~~
1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth."

1 John 3:5
"You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin."

2 Corinthians 5:21
"For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."
~~~~~

Therefore, Jesus was correct when He told the young rich man that He was the only Person that is "good". Not you, not me, not Martin Luther King, not even his dear mother Mary. All of us have sinned, and therefore all of us need a Savior.

Since Jesus does indeed claim to be God, there are only three conclusions one can make about His life on this earth: either He was the biggest liar of all time, or He was the most popular insane person of all time, or He was in fact true to His word in everything the bible expresses on His behalf from Genesis to Revelation.

This ultimately means only He has the qualifications (let alone the love and compassion) to provide you with an escape from hell and the ability to enter into heaven. You simply need to have a relationship with the Lord through belief in what He has done for you.



Seriously speaking, I think you are asking questions that many people (including myself) ask of God all the time, and that's perfectly fine. I can in no way claim to know what God says in the bible about everything (not even close), but my faith is at a point to where I trust the Lord so much that I can accept the fact that He doesn't have to reveal everything to me in order to believe in Him.

It's actually not even possible for any of us to comprehend even 1% of His greatness, but there is still more than enough that the Holy Spirit reveals of Him to guide us in the right direction through all aspects of life and beyond. We only need to be real ourselves in the pursuit of His truth, not playing games to prove we're right and He's somehow wrong (the sin of pride and unbelief).

Wit that said, I'm scratching my head at how I can be accused of avoiding something mentioned in the bible. Let's start by agreeing that yes, I've failed to quote every single verse of its 66 books (so far at least :p), but by all means, let's take a closer look at the rest of Matthew 19:16-22.

What is NOT being stated by Jesus is that a way to eternal life is to sell his earthly possessions and bless the poor with the proceeds. That's religion and there are dozens of verses and scriptures that emphasizing that our actions and deeds do absolutely nothing to make us right with God. Here's are just two:

~~~~~
Ephesians 2:8-10
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 11:6
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
~~~~~

Grace by definition is a free gift from God that is not earned and not even deserved. You just take what is offered (through faith) and it is yours. Good deeds ("works") have absolutely nothing to do with salvation, which I elaborate on below.

The statement you're strongly holding up as a way to heaven is in no way is commandment issued by the Lord to everyone who has ever lived (as you imply) any more than when Jesus asked the blind man to rub mud over his eyes in order to receive the gift of sight.

The reason Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor is twofold. The first reason is so obvious, you merely have to read on further to what Jesus says will happen if he does it:

~~~~~
"go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven"
~~~~~

So one of the two main reasons to sell his stuff and donate the money to the poor is to be rewarded in heaven. Jesus elaborates further on earning treasures in heaven by doing good works here on earth in Matthew 6:19–21 if you want to learn more. That's pretty straight forward, so let's address the even bigger reason why Jesus had this specific command for him: the young man was an idolator, and idolatry was keeping salvation away from him.

What is idolatry? It is prioritizing absolutely anything in this life above one's relationship with God. Not only obvious sinful stuff, like gambling or cheating one's way into power/money, etc. Idolatry can be found in otherwise innocent activity like focusing on any relationship more than the one with God, or trying to promote in a business more than pursing genuine closeness with the Lord. It is no coincidence that of all of the ten commandments, the very first one tackles idolatry:

~~~~~
Exodus 20:3
"You shall have no other gods before Me."
~~~~~

There are scores of people who have sadly made it clear to God that they want to go to heaven, but on THEIR terms and not His. Some will go so far as to declare that they'll do what the Lord wants except, for example, give up an illicit, sinful relationship that they know He does not approve of in order to have their cake and eat it too. It won't work.

God sees the heart, and as long as idolatry exists, He won't enter a relationship with that person. It's not that they have to give up their "idols" first (let Him do that for you instead), but you can't knowingly hang onto it in defiance either as well.

What happens with the young man that questioned Jesus? His idolatry shows why he didn't receive salvation. He loved his possessions, didn't want to sell them and give the money to the poor because he valued all of that above the invitation to follow Jesus. Instead, he went away sad. You can't have your salvation cake and eat the moldy cake of embracing sin, too. That's idolatry.

Moving on, here's a tl;dr summary of my response to your accusation of skipping these scriptures before I elaborate a bit on the rest of the passage... after the young rich man asks Jesus what he needs to do for eternal life, the Lord basically tells Him first the "Plan A" and then the "Plan B" method for going to heaven that I completely fleshed out in my very first post in this thread. Go check it out for the detailed write-up, but here are the key sentences re-quoted from it:

>>>>>
.
.
.
So Plan A for an eternal relationship with God is simple: just don't sin. Of course, everybody (except Jesus) messed up Plan A:
~~~~~
Romans 3:10
"As it has been written: 'There is none righteous, not even one;'"
Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?"
~~~~~
.
.
.
Thankfully, out of love God can and did go beyond His law by giving us a Plan B. According to perhaps the most well known verse in the bible, we read how much love He has for us when He sent His son to die for us because of our sin in our place:
~~~~~
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
~~~~~
See how that worked? The law is fulfilled. Death is the penalty for sin, without exception. But that penalty was voluntarily paid by Jesus when He died on the cross (and rose from death three days later) for your sins and mine.
.
.
.

>>>>>

There you go... the bible directly addresses your accusation towards me here. Jesus accurately explains that Plan A was for all of us to perfectly follow all of God's commandments for our lives to be saved. The young man sadly overestimated his own "goodness" by claiming he has done so his entire life, which is not unlike a lot of people to this day. Jesus doesn't challenge him on it (though we can see the problem in the young man's response if we know or bible) and instead goes on to offer Plan B.

What you don't understand is what the details of Plan B are as described in these verses. The key phrase that applies to everyone of us (including that young man) is found at the end of Jesus' words... "Come follow me." If you digest anything I write here in this entire post, please do so with this quote the most. Jesus is inviting the young man into a permanent relationship with Him, which is well beyond His traveling ministry on the earth, but also into eternal life, which was the original question being asked:

~~~~~
"Come follow Me."
~~~~~

That is "Plan B" in the simplest terms possible. Sure, Plan A (follow all of the commandments perfectly) can get a person into heaven, but it is the most exclusive path possible. It is so exclusive that only one Person was able to do it: Jesus Christ. The reason is because the law of God (holy list of do's and don'ts) while perfect was never able to save one's life. It can't because the penalty for committing ANY sin is death (according to Genesis 3), and there is nothing one can do to erase the stain of sin from their lives after it happens.

The bizarre thing is, literally billions upon billions of people throughout history have tried proving to God that they are "good" by trying oh-so-hard to never do wrong while always doing right. That's religion, not Christianity. Religion only leads to damnation in the pits of hell forever. Don't take my word for it... look how God describes the attempt at following commandments of right and wrong for salvation is all about, as written by Paul the apostle:

~~~~~
2 Corinthians 3:7-9
"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory."
~~~~~

What were the "carved letters on stone"? The ten commandments, which were the first written words shared with humanity from God to further impress upon us the commandments He places on all of our hearts since the beginning of our existence.

So the key point the passage makes clear is that the religious approach to salvation (following God's commandments) is a "ministry of death" and a "ministry of condemnation"! Again, the law is perfect, but it is us, people, who are imperfect at keeping God's law. Plan A can never work because trying to do so only leads to eternal damnation!

Plan B, however, is mentioned here as the "ministry of the Spirit" as well as the "ministry of righteousness". What does that mean? Well, note how Jesus explains the main reason why the Holy Spirit was sent to us after He died and resurrected in this verse:

~~~~~
John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me"
~~~~~

So the ministry of the Spirit is testifying the gospel. That is, sharing the "good news" about salvation through Jesus Christ. We also know that "the ministry of righteousness" is all about Jesus as well:

~~~~~
Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
~~~~~

The end of the law (which is to put aside religion as a means to make ourselves right) is what Christ's act of love and sacrifice is all about. It is the way (the only way) for restoring a relationship with your Father in heaven through a relationship with Him. Trying to be good by just being good (with no "bad" committed at all), again, is the ultimate "exclusive" path to heaven that only Jesus was able to follow.

It is my sincere hope that one day you believe with the smallest bit of sincere faith that Jesus loves you, and that he has offered to you the only true way into heaven. His "Plan B" is the opposite of the ministry of death. It is the ultimate "inclusive" path by way of forgiveness. It is the free gift of grace that He offers to everyone whether they be rich or poor, black or white, old or young, male or female. All you have to do is receive it through belief and salvation is yours forever.


Eh, annihilation is the complete obliteration of something. Nothing in the bible supports that at all when it comes to a sinner's final destination in hell. I mean, you continue to pound the table that Jesus never talks about hell despite the ton of quotes I posted from Him where He discusses exactly that, but for some additional, supporting bible verses God makes available to counter that false perspective (since my personal opinion doesn't matter), here you go...

~~~~~
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name"

Jude 1:7
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 13:42
"And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against Me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"

Psalm 76:10
Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; the remnant of wrath You will put on like a belt."
~~~~~
^^^ Not annihilated, but "tormented" and "punished" in hell forever in a variety of awful ways described throughout the bible. If the righteous who are saved forever enjoy "everlasting life" (the Daniel verse), how is it not also forever the "shame and everlasting contempt" from the same verse for sinners who are thrown into the lake of fire? Even this verse talks about the first death (separation of the spirit from the body) and asks about how can be saved from the second death (separation of the spirit from God):

~~~~~
Psalm 89:48
"What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?"
~~~~~

Sheol was the general understanding of the realm of death during old testament times, since a full revelation of heaven and hell in more detail was fulfilled through the life, death and resurrection of the One who came to save us all. Still, in the old testament times there was a general understanding of the afterlife expressed even before the life of Jesus revealed more details:

~~~~~
Job 19:25
"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will stand upon the earth."

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Habakkuk 2:4
"...the righteous shall live by his faith.”

Isaiah 53:5
"But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."
~~~~~

Like a lot of spiritual truths throughout the bible, chronologically God slowly revealed more and more details about heaven, hell, sacrifice for sins, salvation through faith alone, etc. over time until a lot of it was fulfilled by the life of Jesus. Any suggestion that the Lord was required to fully explain everything on day one is ridiculous.

I mean, the first prophecy of Jesus coming to deal with Satan happened in the early Genesis, and made no sense at all to people over thousands and thousands of years until Jesus eventually lived, died and came back from the dead to defeat death itself before one day returning to take out the devil directly (here's the curse from God to the evil one):

~~~~~
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel.”
~~~~~

Moving on, in case you're wondering, I did quote this verse in the other linked post I wrote earlier when I listed some extensive quotes from Jesus about hell:

~~~~~
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
~~~~~

To that point, I zeroed in on a common misunderstood aspect of what makes you "you" in my first post in this thread linked above. It actually indirectly addresses the reason why the destruction of the body and soul in hell is not total annihilation. Here's the relevant text:

>>>>>
"Understand that the bible's definition of death is *separation*, and it states that everyone dies at least once because of hereditary sin from Adam, which is the separation of the real person from our home in the body. The spirit is the real you and me, and when it separates from the body, that's the physical death.
The second, optional death is when we choose to be eternally separated from our Creator in the afterlife by the choice we make to do so down here on earth. If you don't want to spend eternity with God, He won't force you. However, the only place one can be completely separated from God is hell."
>>>>>

God told Adam that on the day that defied his Creator by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he "shall surly die" (Genesis 2:17). Physically, Adam lived 930 years according to the bible, so did God lie? No, because on the day Adam sinned, the real Adam ---> the spirit <--- was separated from the Lord. That spirit was never annihilated because no one as a spirit is annihilated.

Now in the verse Matthew 10:28 we see a more permanent outcome to a spirit in the afterlife of those who defy God with evil works of all types when they were alive. The body (which is the home of each spirit person) is said to be destroyed as well as the soul (which each spirit possess). The spirit itself, however, is eternal because it is the real "us" made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4). So it is the spirit that is permanently separated from God in the second death as it exists forever.

Ironically, the greatest source of pain for the condemned sinner is not the feeling of hellfire or seeing the deep, outer darkness or the non-stop sounds wailing and gnashing of teeth or the smell of sulfur and brimstone.

Instead it is the heartbreaking knowledge that God pursued them all their lives and they always rejected Him. The final verse in Psalms quoted above indicates that condemned sinners are well aware that they rejected the Lord, and in their horrific eternity of torment and suffering, they will spend it praising the God they should've glorified here on earth.

"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord."

++++++++++++++++++++++

One more thing before I end this post, Mai72. You're obviously an intelligent person, and I would not mock you by suggesting that you don't take your questions regarding life as we know it (as well as that in the life beyond) very seriously.

God knows your heart. Obviously there is plenty in His word that you weren't aware of when asking your questions and seeking answers from this source and that one. Why not start looking for what He has to say to you by reading the bible for yourself?

Even in this period of doubt in your life, He is willing and able to bring you into more understanding about Him, yourself, and what is in store for your future. It's when He personalizes His presence in your life is when it will be more real to you than you could imagine, and that happens primarily from the bible:

~~~~~
Romans 10:17
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
~~~~~

Consider starting with this verse below. No matter what sins you've committed in the past, or even those which you may be committing now, it is here where He offers this promise that you can embrace to be 100% true as you go forward in growing in His wisdom should you choose to do so:

~~~~~
John 6:37
"...and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
~~~~~

Read it on your own in the context of the full chapter in which it appears, and do so with an honest heart to what He has to say to your heart through it. In any case, God bless and take care. As for me, I'll continue to include you in my prayers.
This is the last time I'm going to respond, but I'll leave you with a book recommendation. You should check it out. It has just about every fallacy that you're making.
 

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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
19,116
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Matt Owns Theist: **NSFW (light cursing)**
Damn, that's like two different species. A stark reminder that if we take all this information crap away, we're all just hunter gathers straight out of late stone age 50k years ago. Or in this case 200 years ago.

This is actually a slight moonie moment, this dude will not understand the marvelousness of the universe and reality until he embraces it without an omnipresence.
 
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Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
10,987
1,363
126
Damn, that's like two different species. A start reminder that if we take all this information crap away, we're all just hunter gathers straight out of late stone age 50k years ago. Or in this case 200 years ago.

This is actually a slight moonie moment, this dude will not understand the marvelousness of the universe and reality until he embraces it without an omnipresence.
Its just ignorance. I hate people who try to push their beliefs onto others. Its ignorant of other cultural beliefs, and just plain arrognant. I have a cross that I wear along with a buddha head. I believe in the historical Jesus. I do believe that the man had a ministry and his goal was to help the sick, the elderly and the poor. What he didn't do is go around and tell people that they were bound for hell if they didn't follow him. He was Jewish. Jewish belief doesn't have a fiery hell in their afterlife. That came from Greek poetry such as Dante's Inferno, which was injected into Christanity as more gentiles came into the religion. Religion is a business first. Its why we have scam pastors like Olsteen, Hinn, and Copeland who are worth hundreds of milliosn of dollars. Its why the Catholic church is worth between 10-15 BILLION! Frightening people with images of a horrible afterlife that last forever is BIG money. Death is scary for most people as well. But, fear is typically just ignorance. I'm a practucing Buddhist. I could link to scientist who claim that reincarnation is real. I could link to people who have claimed that they've seen their past lives. I could play the exact game, but I won't because I don't believe in reincarnation though. I'm still a practicing Buddhist.

I listen to a lot of Bart Erhman. I've read a few of his books as well. He is a professor from NC State with well over 40 years of New Testament expertise. A once devourt Christian, who is now an agnostic atheist. He graduated from Moody Bible University as well. He just has a wealth of kniowledge. He makes the claim for the historical Jesus. His books include: Heaven and Hell. A History of the Afterlife, Misquoting Jesus, and How Jesus became God. Such a wealth of knowledge. All great reads.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
19,116
8,448
136
Its just ignorance. I hate people who try to push their beliefs onto others. Its ignorant of other cultural beliefs, and just plain arrognant. I have a cross that I wear along with a buddha head. I believe in the historical Jesus. I do believe that the man had a ministry and his goal was to help the sick, the elderly and the poor. What he didn't do is go around and tell people that they were bound for hell if they didn't follow him. He was Jewish. Jewish belief doesn't have a fiery hell in their afterlife. That came from Greek poetry such as Dante's Inferno, which was injected into Christanity as more gentiles came into the religion. Religion is a business first. Its why we have scam pastors like Olsteen, Hinn, and Copeland who are worth hundreds of milliosn of dollars. Its why the Catholic church is worth between 10-15 BILLION! Frightening people with images of a horrible afterlife that last forever is BIG money. Death is scary for most people as well. But, fear is typically just ignorance. I'm a practucing Buddhist. I could link to scientist who claim that reincarnation is real. I could link to people who have claimed that they've seen their past lives. I could play the exact game, but I won't because I don't believe in reincarnation though. I'm still a practicing Buddhist.

I listen to a lot of Bart Erhman. I've read a few of his books as well. He is a professor from NC State with well over 40 years of New Testament expertise. A once devourt Christian, who is now an agnostic atheist. He graduated from Moody Bible University as well. He just has a wealth of kniowledge. He makes the claim for the historical Jesus. His books include: Heaven and Hell. A History of the Afterlife, Misquoting Jesus, and How Jesus became God. Such a wealth of knowledge. All great reads.
Two things, 1. incidentally I've settled on agnosticism as well and 2. If I ever were to pull of a heist it would be to rob one or more of those scam pastors for everything they have.
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
668
126
Your belief is "supposed" to be a private relationship between you and what ever sky daddy you believe in.

So fucking keep it private.

Thank you...
LOL, I have no dog in this fight and don't care either way, but this is about the most hypocritical bullshit I've seen.

Look at your quote, then look at your signature.

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

He has to keep his opinion and personal beliefs silenced and private, but you can demean his beliefs and post quotes that are negative towards religious?

You always seem SO mad when someone post about religion. Show us on the doll where the priest touched you, lol. Seriously, why are you so mad at others for their beliefs? Who cares! Let them do their thing, they aren't hurting anyone, but you're pretty verbally abusive consistently.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
20,000
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Damn, that's like two different species. A stark reminder that if we take all this information crap away, we're all just hunter gathers straight out of late stone age 50k years ago. Or in this case 200 years ago.

This is actually a slight moonie moment, this dude will not understand the marvelousness of the universe and reality until he embraces it without an omnipresence.
The wonderment of consciousness is the most amazing thing about being a human. This marvels keeps me always wondering what's next? Isn't that enough?
 
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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,395
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LOL, I have no dog in this fight and don't care either way, but this is about the most hypocritical bullshit I've seen.

Look at your quote, then look at your signature.

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

He has to keep his opinion and personal beliefs silenced and private, but you can demean his beliefs and post quotes that are negative towards religious?

You always seem SO mad when someone post about religion. Show us on the doll where the priest touched you, lol. Seriously, why are you so mad at others for their beliefs? Who cares! Let them do their thing, they aren't hurting anyone, but you're pretty verbally abusive consistently.
My quote is about the fucking people that do evil, and their sky daddy is their justification, not about the sky daddy.

On the other hand, and in the case of @arredondo he is spewing the threats of what his sky daddy will do for those that don't kowtow to his interpretation of his imaginary friend's vindictive nature... quoting from the musings of ancient men that didn't have a fucking clue where the sun went every night.

There in lies that danger of religion, but clearly you fail to see the danger, which in itself is a danger.
 

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
668
126
My quote is about the fucking people that do evil, and their sky daddy is their justification, not about the sky daddy.

On the other hand, and in the case of @arredondo he is spewing the threats of what his sky daddy will do for those that don't kowtow to his interpretation of his imaginary friend's vindictive nature... quoting from the musings of ancient men that didn't have a fucking clue where the sun went every night.

There in lies that danger of religion, but clearly you fail to see the danger, which in itself is a danger.
"clearly you fail to see the danger, which in itself is a danger"

Seems to be the same line I see people use all the time when people don't agree with their stance. Religious people have never been of any danger to me, family or friends. I've never known anyone who was "killed in the name of God" or whatever BS.

Not to say that Religion isn't misused and sometimes used as an excuse to do bad things, but you make it out to be that every religious person is inherently evil and going to do something evil. The schtick get old. It's no different if someone sat around calling you a devil worshiper because you're agnostic/atheist.

Using terms like "sky daddy" and shit like that is just a low blow and immature. As stated, no difference if they call you names.

It's a moron on the forum. :rolleyes:
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,170
20,801
136
"clearly you fail to see the danger, which in itself is a danger"

Seems to be the same line I see people use all the time when people don't agree with their stance. Religious people have never been of any danger to me, family or friends. I've never known anyone who was "killed in the name of God" or whatever BS.

Not to say that Religion isn't misused and sometimes used as an excuse to do bad things, but you make it out to be that every religious person is inherently evil and going to do something evil. The schtick get old. It's no different if someone sat around calling you a devil worshiper because you're agnostic/atheist.

Using terms like "sky daddy" and shit like that is just a low blow and immature. As stated, no difference if they call you names.

It's a moron on the forum. :rolleyes:
Why did people fly commercial airlines into the trade center?
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,395
5,609
136
"clearly you fail to see the danger, which in itself is a danger"

Seems to be the same line I see people use all the time when people don't agree with their stance. Religious people have never been of any danger to me, family or friends. I've never known anyone who was "killed in the name of God" or whatever BS.

Not to say that Religion isn't misused and sometimes used as an excuse to do bad things, but you make it out to be that every religious person is inherently evil and going to do something evil. The schtick get old. It's no different if someone sat around calling you a devil worshiper because you're agnostic/atheist.

Using terms like "sky daddy" and shit like that is just a low blow and immature. As stated, no difference if they call you names.

It's a moron on the forum. :rolleyes:
Please show me where I said "every"... I never alluded to that, nor does the quote, you are reading too much into both, which I suspect is your goal.

"our 'father' who art in heaven....." sky daddy in an imaginary place
LOL, I have no dog in this fight and don't care either way <>
Your actions lead me to believe this is not an accurate statement...
 
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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
668
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Please show me where I said "every"... I never alluded to that, nor does the quote, you are reading too much into both, which I suspect is your goal.

"our 'father' who art in heaven....." sky daddy in an imaginary place

Your actions lead me to believe this is not an accurate statement...
My response is to seeing your repeated negative post towards people on the subject. So that is why I used the word "every", cause honestly, I've never seen you say a kind word to someone who mentions religion.

You can believe what you want. I know who I am and I know how to respect others. I don't feel the need to shit on anyone who mentions religion, atheism, agnostic, satanic or whatever you want to call yourself. It's just straight up bullying, bigotry and being a general asshole. You do you. I just feel, if they aren't actually hurting anyone, why antagonize them? Ignore it and move on.
 
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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
7,395
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My response is to seeing your repeated negative post towards people on the subject. So that is why I used the word "every", cause honestly, I've never seen you say a kind word to someone who mentions religion.

You can believe what you want. I know who I am and I know how to respect others. I don't feel the need to shit on anyone who mentions religion, atheism, agnostic, satanic or whatever you want to call yourself. It's just straight up bullying, bigotry and being a general asshole. You do you. I just feel, if they aren't actually hurting anyone, why antagonize them? Ignore it and move on.
You should take your own advice.... hypocrite
 

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