Is Evolution Compatible with Christianity?

[iamaelephant]

Originally posted by: huberm
OP, the only thing I know is some say it is compatible and some say it isn't. I am a Christian and I have not really put much thought into it. I have, however, come to the conclusion that regardless of the possibility and/or fact that evolution as we perceive it is real, it still does not explain how the entire universe and everything in it got here. That in my mind is what is completely incompatible between differing viewpoints.

Considering the theory of evolution has never attempted to explain any of that, I think it's a fair conclusion that it never will. The genesis of the universe is well outside the scope of a theory that deals with the mutation and selection of genes on Earth.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I read this recently and I rather like it:

Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect.

Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious dogma or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.

-Freeman Dyson

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: Canai
And to OP: Yes, Christianity has evolved from a peace loving Jesus to a persecuting and fear mongering and hopelessly corrupt and rich Vatican.

And God helping evolution defies the basic premises of 'survival of the fittest,' unless one views the 'fittest' as the 'chosen'

Surival of the fittest was not even stated by Darwin in his thoughts about natural selection. Different topic.

Being in the 'bible belt', I know a lot of people who disbelieve in any type of evolution, whether it be pertaining to simple organisms or human life. My friend's private catholic school did not teach evolution, as they did not view it as a correct lesson to teach.

Personally, I think arguing about, in almost any manner, is futile. Give it up.

 

[Xyo II]

You know, I have never seen why people get so irritated by opposing viewpoints like this particular topic. If you are a religious person getting angry with the atheist that they don't see God and make attacks on the Bible's (or their own equivalent) shortcomings (the little details) you should just accept the fact that they don't believe in what you believe in. At some point in your life you had to have not believed in God, or doubted the existence of a God, or else you wouldn't have contemplated the existence of God in the first place. You don't get mad at a child for not seeing how or why there could or should be a God because they simply have not thought about it or just for their own reasons don't think there is a God. You don't get mad at stories explaining scripture that someone had created to better relate what the scriptures mean, when they have idiosyncrasies intertwined to help explain it, even though you know it's not literally true- so stop getting mad at science because it has explained and defined the Universe and systems here on Earth, and refined the world's view of the Universe.
If you are an atheist that gets mad at the religious person because they think in something ridiculous, with no proof of it's existence, which claims to be able to do things not possible in this universe and are completely outside common sense, then you're just going to have to deal with it, because it's a view most people have. Oh, and the Bible isn't meant to be facts, it's just lessons that are facts of life. (and which God has decreed-according to Christianity) Most things mentioned in the Bible shouldn't be interpreted literally. I don't believe in any particular religion, but I was brought up a Christian.

I used to be a critic of anything religious. I mean, where's the proof in it? Why would you believe in it at all? It looks like it's something people made up to explain the things they don't understand. It's like the Easter Bunny- only if you think it exists, it exists. Well, as I thought about it more, it still didn't make sense to me- why someone have to make up a God to make the things they don't understand in the Universe make sense, even though we are finding more and more things in the Bible we now know are wrong, through the advent of newer and more precise technologies and good old experience? It's like someone explaining that there's a ghost in the basement, because they saw this smoky figure making weird noises, but it turns out there's a gas leak that looks a lot like a typical "ghost" and there's some plumbing making "ghostly" noises. But then one day as I was reading a book on theoretical astrophysics, I just had a thought. It was just a thought, but it really made me realize what a "powerful" thought could be. Why is there a Universe? Why isn't there just nothing? What would it be like if there was nothing- there would be no Earth, no television, no cute Asian girls, no people, no theories, ideologies, politics, ethics, and no thoughts. There wouldn't even be nothing, because there's nobody to call it nothing, and nobody to think of it as nothing; there would just be nothing everywhere and nowhere. There would not be a Universe without any particles in it, a complete vacuum, because there wouldn't have been a Universe with any particles in it at all to start with, and nobody to see that there isn't anything at all. Why are we here? - who cares. Why the fvck is the Universe here?? What if there couldn't be any Big Bang, which in one very small space of the resulting cooling matter somehow bred life that could manipulate the life and matter around it, because there wasn't any energy there to begin with? Now, ask yourself, how did the energy get there? Why or how did it suddenly get there?
------- My first thoughts were that of a recollapsing Universe, in which first there is a Big Bang, the matter expanding in all directions, but as the gravity of the matter slows the expansion down to a standstill, the collective gravity of the matter-energy near the edge of the Universe starts pulling itself back where it came from, pulling the entire Universe back to where it started; into one absolutely tiny ball of energy where the Big Bang started, for the Big Bang to start again. (the other idea is that the edge of the expanding Universe just keeps on going and going, and eventually through equilibrium the Universe will be the almost the same temperature at all parts, which is very very very cold)--------
^But then I thought, that energy had to have come from somewhere, it couldn't have been collapsing and expanding forever because it had to have started somewhere. Well, I guess that would be why people believe that there is a God.

But, if someone asked me why I believe in a God, even though I'm not very "religious", I would probably just explain that Shu Qi is all the reason I need to prove that a God exists, and smiles upon all that is good. (She is the reason I like The Transporter- well, Bruce Willis did some pretty believable acting in there too)

That all got a bit off of the thread topic, but I still stand by what I said before- evolution is completely compatible with Christianity, or else there would be more controversy over the findings of the age of the Universe, and how the Earth actually got formed in the first place. God had to make the Earth and Universe follow the observable laws and rules of physical matter that we can study, or else- if he had just "popped" the world into existence, or sped up time (which technically is possible and pretty much impossible to determine after the fact if he has complete and perfect control over the entire Universe from start to finish, and the time was changed at all points at the same time in the universe, physical and otherwise, I guess) it would be kind of obvious that something wasn't right, and there would eventually be proof towards the existence of God- and if there was proof that God exists, that would completely undermine a core belief of Christianity. So it's best to assume that (if somehow the Universe started without a reason needed to explain how the energy got there in the first place) the Universe does make sense, and follows very observable rules, and there aren't any inconsistencies when the Universe is finally (if ever) completely understood and explained. And ******, if I ever saw this post, I probably wouldn't read it.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Too many idiots in this forum, *head explodes*

Evolution is not a proven fact, which many biologists should tell you (I think). Obviously, nearly all biologists accept it to be true because of the large body of evidence, but even with so much evidence, you cannot prove it. It is generally regarded to be true, but biology != mathematics

 

[Xyo II]

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
Too many idiots in this forum, *head explodes*

Evolution is not a proven fact, which many biologists should tell you (I think). Obviously, nearly all biologists accept it to be true because of the large body of evidence, but even with so much evidence, you cannot prove it. It is generally regarded to be true, but biology != mathematics

No kidding. It's pretty much common sense though. There was some religious fanatic in my school that didn't believe that fossils existed. :disgust:

 

[Soybomb]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I read this recently and I rather like it:

Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect.

Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious dogma or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.

-Freeman Dyson

Do you think Mr. Dyson would feel the same way if a scientific discovery gave credit to a core belief of christianity? Its quite easy to say they're seperate realms when one doesn't support your beliefs. I see him and others like him singing a different tune though if such evidence ever surfaced. "The DNA evidence proves that Jesus doesn't have a father! Paise the lor....oh wait nevermind science and religion are seperate matters. Information from one cannot be used in the realm of the other."

I believe I also fail to see how scientists aren't qualified to talk about religion and why it has to be a realm that is off limits to their criticism. Why is a theologian more qualified to answer certain questions than a scientist? If science can't answer a question at the present time why can religion be qualified to answer them?

 

[newmachineoverlord]

According to the bible, "2 Peter 3:8 ? One day is as of a thousand years and a thousand years is a day in the eyes of the Lord" Yet this does not specify the reference frame for a day, nor the number of hours within a day. The tidal effects from the moon create a sort of friction which slows down the rotation of the Earth, so day lengths are not constant over time.

Of course since a year is both 365 days and one one thousandth of a day, the actual length of the six days of the Earth's creation should be viewed as an indeterminant sum according to the bible. Therefore it is compatable with whatever timeframe we find evidence for (ie 15 billion years= six days) Even supposing that god came down and dictated the bible version of genesis, do you really think mesopotamians even had numbering systems that covered billions? Did there mathematics cover the algebra and statistics that explain the mechanisms of evolution, which works at a population level? Almost certainly not. In any case, much of the bible comes from ancient mesopotamian oral traditions, as has been shown elsewhere. Some of it comes from the epic of Gilgamesh, of which we have copies dating back seven thousand years.

The core values of christianity truly say nothing regarding the mechanism of the origin of species, changes in biodiversity, or the mechanismsof the origin of the unvierse. Christianity contradicts neither the big bang theory nor evolution.

Evolution itself is extremely well supported, better so than the theory of gravity. The current theories of gravity may in fact be all wrong, does that mean that you should go ahead and jump off a tall building? Evolution can be used to make accurate predictions, and is used as a tool all the time by biologists and water processing plants.

Fundamentalism in general betrays the true nature of its source religion, encouraging hypocrisy and intellectual laziness, while stripping the writings of their original context. All religious writings should be considered within the context of their originating culture, without that context they lose meaning. Fundamentalism is primarily used as a tool for manipulating people to believe a particular set of ideas which are financially or politically convenient to the leader of the moment, and it is effective because it makes an appeal to intellectual laziness, as seen in the intelligent design hypothesis. http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm
http://www.bidstrup.com/religion.htm
Fundamentalism: The bible should be interpreted to support my ideas.

The true historical origin of christianity is one marked by pacifism. Thus historically accurate christian fundamentalism would emphasize pacifism above all else.

From life of Brian:
"Man: I think it was 'Blessed are the cheese-makers'.
Jewwife: Ah. What's so special about the cheese-makers?
Jew: Well obviously it's not meant to be taken literally, it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products."

Edit: Soybomb, your sig quote is actually written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, not voltaire. That's a common misatribution. It was published in "friends of voltaire" in 1906. It was her verbal interpretation of what she percieved to be voltair's attitude.

 

[RapidSnail]

Evolution will never ever be compatible with the Bible or Christianity. Theistic Evolution is just a lame attempt at giving evolution some sort of credit among the "religious" community by slapping on a word that suggests divine intervention by God. However, the weak "evidence" behind theistic evolution (and evolution as a whole) demonstrates how little thought was put into it.



The first thing that must be established in any form of evolution is that it takes a long time. Theistic Evolution supporters turn to 2 Peter 3:8 to "validate" their claims.

2 Peter 3:8 (King James Version)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Looking past the fact that 2 Peter 3:8 is taken far out of context, there is one inherent flaw in the assumption. The verse quoted states that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years..." The word "as" is critical in that it identifies a simile, not a mathematical equation of "one equals one thousand and vice versa." God is indicating that he is above his creation and thus outside of time. In Revelation 22:20, the Lord says "...Surely I come quickly." Obviously, he could not have been referencing time as we see it, but as he sees it. It has been two thousand years since his ascension which is a lot of time to us; but to the Lord, it's just another tick on the clock.

Of course, if you wish to apply 2 Peter 3:8 to Genesis 1, you must also apply it throughout the Bible. You cannot just pick and choose where you want the verse to apply. This is obviously a ludicrous idea, as it is would render impossible the greater part of the Bible (Christ in the tomb for three thousand years!?) and makes absolutely no sense at all.



But let us assume, merely for the purpose of debate, that the seven days of creation really were long periods of time. It is a well known fact among evolutionists that their theory requires large amounts of time for its effects to be carried out. This number is up in the millions and billions of years. What is being inferred here is that one thousand years is far too little time for full evolutionary effects to occur. However, I will play along; and in our little example, one day is equal to one thousand years as "proven" by 2 Peter 3:8.

Now I'm sure many of you are aware that in biology there is a term called symbiosis which describes a relationship between two organisms in which at least one of them benefits. This process is very prominent throughout nature. According to Genesis, on the third day of creation God made the plants. As just stated, many different plants and animals are involved in a symbiotic relationship. That is to say they cannot survive without one another. The first animals were created on the fifth day, two days after the plants. Day-age theorists would have that mean at least (Remember that evolution requires much more time than what has been given; we merely use this low amount due to the passage above) two thousand years. Do tell me, will you, how those plants could have survived past the creation week without their symbiotic partner to spread their seed. Two thousand years without the ability to repopulate, and yet they are still here!

Genesis 1 also makes it very clear that each day was broken into two periods: day and night. With our one thousand year days, how could the plants and animals have survived a 500 year period of light and a 500 year period of darkness? It is vital for a very large amount of organisms (especially the flora) to receive light, which is required for photosynthesis, energy, health, and whatnot. Without the ability to make food for 500 years, how could they have survived? Also, how did these same not die from gross over-exposure to the light?



The conclusion is that Theistic Evolution is not possible according to the Biblical account of creation. The people who wish to twist 2 Peter 3:8 out of context and give it a literal meaning are incorrect.

Also not that the Hebrew word for day [yôm] which has several different meanings, including "age", is used 2301 times in the OT. Whenever used with the terms "evening" or "morning" it always indicates a 24-hour day.



Edit - Grammar

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Theb
Topic Title: Is Evolution Compatible with Christianity?

Do you believe Adam and Eve walked the Earth the same time as the Dinosaurs?

Answer that and you have your answer.

Aww Dave, come in and simplify any discussion into a yes/no question. Just like you do with everything else. Of course (as usual) your statement is incorrect as it would only apply to a small subset of Christians. You will gloss over this fact and probably throw out a completely different claim or insult to cover your tracks as you leave. I will provide an example showing your statement is false.

Catholics (which are Christians) do not believe that Adam and Eve walked the Earth at the same time as the dinosaurs.

OK tell that to the Christian Museum featuring Dinosaurs sleeping side by side with Adam & Eve:

Founder Anticipates Creation Museum's Spring '07 Opening With Excitement

The Creation Museum is a project of Answers in Genesis, a ministry that helps Christians become equipped to defend the biblical account of creation.

"It has a big, animatronic pterodactyl above a cave that's an entrance into the bookstore," he says.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Theb
Topic Title: Is Evolution Compatible with Christianity?

Do you believe Adam and Eve walked the Earth the same time as the Dinosaurs?

Answer that and you have your answer.

Aww Dave, come in and simplify any discussion into a yes/no question. Just like you do with everything else. Of course (as usual) your statement is incorrect as it would only apply to a small subset of Christians. You will gloss over this fact and probably throw out a completely different claim or insult to cover your tracks as you leave. I will provide an example showing your statement is false.

Catholics (which are Christians) do not believe that Adam and Eve walked the Earth at the same time as the dinosaurs.

A small subset of Christians? I believe that dinosaurs did walk the earth with Adam and Eve. It's not as if dinosaurs are solely a creation of evolution (pun, lol).

As for the Catholics being Christians thing, I don't think you want to get into that .

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Theb
Topic Title: Is Evolution Compatible with Christianity?

Do you believe Adam and Eve walked the Earth the same time as the Dinosaurs?

Answer that and you have your answer.

Aww Dave, come in and simplify any discussion into a yes/no question. Just like you do with everything else. Of course (as usual) your statement is incorrect as it would only apply to a small subset of Christians. You will gloss over this fact and probably throw out a completely different claim or insult to cover your tracks as you leave. I will provide an example showing your statement is false.

Catholics (which are Christians) do not believe that Adam and Eve walked the Earth at the same time as the dinosaurs.

OK tell that to the Christian Museum featuring Dinosaurs sleeping side by side with Adam & Eve:

Founder Anticipates Creation Museum's Spring '07 Opening With Excitement

The Creation Museum is a project of Answers in Genesis, a ministry that helps Christians become equipped to defend the biblical account of creation.

"It has a big, animatronic pterodactyl above a cave that's an entrance into the bookstore," he says.

You mean the one run by a group of Evangelicals and not the Catholic Church?

 

[SparkyJJO]

Topic Title: Is Evolution Compatible with Christianity?

Answer: Some think it should be but looking at the very first chapter of the very first book of the Bible the answer is simple: No

 

[Geocentricity]

Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Superficially, I think it can be compatible. A god uses evolution to shape life on Earth.

Only problem in Christianity I see is the time frame. According to the Bible, isn't the Earth only a few thousands years old?

From what I've been told/taught at church, God's passing of time is probably not the same as ours. For instance, from the Big Bang til the formation of our solar system could've been a few seconds to him while it is eons for us. Therefore, when God created heaven and the earth, it felt like a day to God, but in our frame of time reference it is millions of years.

This could also explain why theologians believe Adam and Eve did not live in the same era as dinosaurs.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: dullard
Yes, they are compatible.

Genesis from the bible (in EXACT chronological order from the King James version):
1) Void
2) Energy and light.
3) Earth
4) Water
5) Plant life
6) Water life
7) Birds
8) Mammals
9) Land animals
10) Man.

Evolution theory:
1) Void
2) Light from energy
3) Earth
4) Water
5) Plant life
6) Water life
7/8) Birds/ mammals, I forget which came first
9) Land animals
10) Man.

For all we know "7 days" to God is like seventy-bazillion years to us - so I see no problem with people believing in evolution as the mechanism for God's Creation. However, if you believe in God, you should also believe that he could just as easily have created the world in 7 days

Originally posted by: aidanjm
you might as well ask if intelligence is compatible with christianity. my answer: No.

Did you think before posting that?

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Geocentricity

Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Superficially, I think it can be compatible. A god uses evolution to shape life on Earth.

Only problem in Christianity I see is the time frame. According to the Bible, isn't the Earth only a few thousands years old?

From what I've been told/taught at church, God's passing of time is probably not the same as ours. For instance, from the Big Bang til the formation of our solar system could've been a few seconds to him while it is eons for us. Therefore, when God created heaven and the earth, it felt like a day to God, but in our frame of time reference it is millions of years.

This could also explain why theologians believe Adam and Eve did not live in the same era as dinosaurs.

God-guided evolution isn't possible according to the Bible. I don't see why Christians even try to consider it an option. Surely a God with infinite power could have used either option, but it is clear throughout the Bible that God is a God of order. Evolution is a chaotic process that never produces order, only disorder.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Geocentricity

Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Superficially, I think it can be compatible. A god uses evolution to shape life on Earth.

Only problem in Christianity I see is the time frame. According to the Bible, isn't the Earth only a few thousands years old?

From what I've been told/taught at church, God's passing of time is probably not the same as ours. For instance, from the Big Bang til the formation of our solar system could've been a few seconds to him while it is eons for us. Therefore, when God created heaven and the earth, it felt like a day to God, but in our frame of time reference it is millions of years.

This could also explain why theologians believe Adam and Eve did not live in the same era as dinosaurs.

God-guided evolution isn't possible according to the Bible. I don't see why Christians even try to consider it an option. Surely a God with infinite power could have used either option, but it is clear throughout the Bible that God is a God of order. Evolution is a chaotic process that never produces order, only disorder.

Huh?

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Geocentricity

Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Superficially, I think it can be compatible. A god uses evolution to shape life on Earth.

Only problem in Christianity I see is the time frame. According to the Bible, isn't the Earth only a few thousands years old?

From what I've been told/taught at church, God's passing of time is probably not the same as ours. For instance, from the Big Bang til the formation of our solar system could've been a few seconds to him while it is eons for us. Therefore, when God created heaven and the earth, it felt like a day to God, but in our frame of time reference it is millions of years.

This could also explain why theologians believe Adam and Eve did not live in the same era as dinosaurs.

God-guided evolution isn't possible according to the Bible. I don't see why Christians even try to consider it an option. Surely a God with infinite power could have used either option, but it is clear throughout the Bible that God is a God of order. Evolution is a chaotic process that never produces order, only disorder.

Huh?

The processes of evolution only result in chaos. No order can arise from them.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Geocentricity

Originally posted by: Mermaidman
Superficially, I think it can be compatible. A god uses evolution to shape life on Earth.

Only problem in Christianity I see is the time frame. According to the Bible, isn't the Earth only a few thousands years old?

From what I've been told/taught at church, God's passing of time is probably not the same as ours. For instance, from the Big Bang til the formation of our solar system could've been a few seconds to him while it is eons for us. Therefore, when God created heaven and the earth, it felt like a day to God, but in our frame of time reference it is millions of years.

This could also explain why theologians believe Adam and Eve did not live in the same era as dinosaurs.

God-guided evolution isn't possible according to the Bible. I don't see why Christians even try to consider it an option. Surely a God with infinite power could have used either option, but it is clear throughout the Bible that God is a God of order. Evolution is a chaotic process that never produces order, only disorder.

Huh?

The processes of evolution only result in chaos. No order can arise from them.

Would you mind defining, with some precision, order and chaos in this context?

 

[Vic]

Hatred + ignorance = bigotry

 

[SlitheryDee]

Doesn't it say somewhere in genesis that...oh hell I'll look it up.

(Genesis 1:4) "God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness."

(Genesis 1:5)" God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." There was evening and there was morning, one day."

Seems pretty clear what a day was, a cycle of light and darkness. In the same book the earth was supposedly created in 6 days. How can some of you say that's an indeterminate amount of time?

 

[IronWing]

If we accept evolution then doen't it follow that eventually the practice of abortion will fade away as those who seek them become less represented in the gene pool. Whereas if we accept Christianity it's nothing but abortion, abortion, abortion til the end of time. So by rejecting evolution, Christians are really encouraging abortion.








Hey, where did this wart come from?