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IS DRM Strangling PC Gaming?

D

Dell John B

Member
I recently wrote a blog about how DRM was placing artificial limits on the PC as a gaming platform.

There's a lot of gamers here, and I thought this might be a good place to pose a couple of questions.

1. Game publishers notoriously marginalize complaints against their DRM practices. How important of a consideration is DRM to you when deciding on a game purchase?

2. If DRM is a concern, what do you feel are "fair" rights restrictions? In the blog, I listed a few things I felt were "over the line".

3. Why do so many people attack the anti-DRM crowd as being "pro-pirate"?

Locked for the following reasons-

1. Redundant topic: These questions could be asked in 1 of the other threads discussing the same topic.

2. The preemptive and unnecessary attacks on members that haven't even posted in the thread.

3. Not so subtle self-promoting, of a personal site.

-PC Gaming Moderator- DAPUNISHER
 
Before key community members come in and wrap me with the Jolly Roger for even asking the questions, I have to say I'm sincerely curious. Is DRM a deterrent to gaming purchases? What do people consider to be fair DRM practices? Where's the line?

Like I said in the blog, I'm not against DRM as a whole, I just think there's a line publisher's probably souldn't cross, and I think DRM as it's employed is curbing normal gamer behavior for the PC exclusively.

e.g. How many gamers bring their new XBox game over to a friend's house to share? I'd say more than a few... this is normal behavior. You can't do this with a lot of PC titles...
 
Originally posted by: Dell John B
1. Game publishers notoriously marginalize complaints against their DRM practices. How important of a consideration is DRM to you when deciding on a game purchase?
Click to expand...
If it's a game I'm very excited about, I'll likely buy it without even worrying about what DRM it uses. However, I only get "very excited" about 1-2 games per year. The rest I am either only somewhat interested in them or mostly neutral unless I see a demo or a review that shows me otherwise. For games that I have more of a passing interest in, DRM will play at least some role. However, depending on how good the game looks, I'm willing to put up with some DRM as long as it's not too ridiculous. I'm also not against downloading a crack at some point to get around the DRM.

Originally posted by: Dell John B
2. If DRM is a concern, what do you feel are "fair" rights restrictions? In the blog, I listed a few things I felt were "over the line".
Click to expand...
Over the line, to me, is basically anything that limits the number of installs without allowing you to "un-activate" an install. I almost invariably forget to uninstall my games before I do a wipe and reformat of my hard drive, so being able to un-activate an install through some other means (web-based?) is important. Alternatively, limited installs are okay as long as the game developer agrees to remove the restriction at some point in the future. They did this with BioShock - after a while they decided that the DRM wasn't doing much anymore and removed the install limit (though I'd argue it never really did much to stop piracy in the first place... I mean, look at how many people pirated it). I'm also okay with online checks like Steam or Relic Online in Company of Heroes as long as they provide an alternative if you're not online. I rarely lose internet connectivity so I'm usually not overly concerned with online checks.

Originally posted by: Dell John B
3. Why do so many people attack the anti-DRM crowd as being "pro-pirate"?
Click to expand...
They want to find an easy scapegoat, someone to blame for the problem. The truth is, sadly, that PC gaming is just not doing so well, and it would be in trouble even if there was zero piracy. I'm pretty sure piracy is hurting PC gaming to some degree, but mostly I think there just aren't enough PC gamers out there to sustain the market. Console gaming is cheaper and simpler, and provides a bigger variety of game types as well as simple online setup with friends, and local multiplayer (it's a lot easier for your friends to just bring a controller instead of having them all lug their PCs over). I think PC gaming gives you better image quality, better controls, and more flexibility, but look at how many PCs were sold with Intel Extreme Graphics in the past several years and it's no surprise people are moving to consoles.
 
Originally posted by: spittledip
I really don't think DRM is hurting gaming that much. Buggy ports are probably doing alot more damage.
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Then why the contraversy whenever DRM comes up in a forum thread? Can I take off the asbestos underwear now? It's kind of itchy... 🙂

You don't think about DRM at all when considering a PC game purchase?

 
Originally posted by: Dell John B
Originally posted by: spittledip
I really don't think DRM is hurting gaming that much. Buggy ports are probably doing alot more damage.
Click to expand...

Then why the contraversy whenever DRM comes up in a forum thread? Can I take off the asbestos underwear now? It's kind of itchy... 🙂

You don't think about DRM at all when considering a PC game purchase?
Click to expand...

I do. And it's the reason why I avoided buying Mass Effect for the PC. It was going to be a day one purchase for me, until I learned that it contained SecuROM (AKA malware) and had online activation. Even after they removed the constant phone home routine, SecuROM was the killer for me.

So, I just didn't play it on the PC. I played it on the 360, so one lost sale for PC gaming because of DRM.

Oh, and the flaming hasn't started yet. chizow has been notably absent thus far, and apoppin isn't here yet.

rose.gif
 
Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Oh, and the flaming hasn't started yet. chizow has been notably absent thus far, and apoppin isn't here yet.

rose.gif
Click to expand...

I hope they'll both be kind and gentle. After all, I am curious to hear their responses to the questions. Given what I've already read from them, I think I know what they'll say.


/me cautiously unzips flamesuit...
 
1. Game publishers notoriously marginalize complaints against their DRM practices. How important of a consideration is DRM to you when deciding on a game purchase?
Click to expand...

Other than the occasional MMO trial/purchase, the last PC game I got was Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. It game free with my 8800GTS. The last PC game I bought for myself was KOTOR. I've bought some Sims stuff for the wife, but I don't get her the SecureRom games. I'd say that I don't buy PC games 50% because of the DRM and 50% because I think everything released in the last 5-10 years has been crap. I don't like FPS and that seems to be the way 99% of PC gaming is going nowadays.

2. If DRM is a concern, what do you feel are "fair" rights restrictions? In the blog, I listed a few things I felt were "over the line".
Click to expand...

Verify, upon installation, that the copy is legit. No activation limits. No hidden programs. No malware. No rootkits. No constant 'dialing home' when the executable is run.

3. Why do so many people attack the anti-DRM crowd as being "pro-pirate"?
Click to expand...

Because people are comfortable in 'positional negotiation' and too ignorant to learn why they're wrong. It's the old "If you're not with me you're against me" mentality. The pro-DRM crowd is too entrenched in their belief that piracy causes poor games to understand that you can have legitimate complaints about DRM and still want to see piracy curtailed.
 
1- I do not buy games with system limits, install limits, online activation and tend to avoid games with DRM that will disable the game(s) if a vertual drive is detected (such as alcohol 120) or open security holes for hackers. Revoke tools from install limits are of no help as internet access is required not to mention the hassle of this if it becomes main stream. Steam is the major exception, MP games like TF2 are fine but I try and avoid buying any SP games from them. Steam also offers very useful services such as easy updates and the ability to download & install a game as well as no CD's, they do however put 3rd party DRM such as TAGS on some games such as X3: Terran Conflict, which I refuse to buy.

2- DRM that does not overly inconvenience me, require internet access (except for MP of course) or open security holes. I must also be able to install it as many times on as many "machines" as I wish and not have to worry that if the company that made the game goes under I will not be able to install the game again. End result is the DRM should be invisible to the paying consumer, unlike today's DRM which makes a pirated version of the game (even if you bought it) a superior option (no CD's, no CD key, no security holes from DRM, no bugs caused by said DRM, no install limits, no online activation, no system limits) unless you wish to play MP, which can be worked around.

3- Some people are idiots. Some will look at what I posted above and go on about how internet access is not a problem as I'm on the internet now. They will not care about the reasons for my concerns, just that they have internet access, I'm using the internet right now so I'm full of s***. Some people never reinstall windows and don't even know this counts as a new system (along with hardware changes), I however can burn up a 5 system limit in a week between my desktop and gaming laptop. They say wait for the revoke tool (which so far one company has refused to offer for their game IIRC) which may never come, or call tech support that can chose to call me a pirate and ignore me. Others like one of my RL friends simply doesn't care about DRM and all the hoops he has to jump through, yet get angry when their computer starts screwing up after installing many games with TAGS & securom, frustrated trying to get a game to work when his wireless router is down (online activation) and gets upset that that changing his video card will cost him his last install limit, but never would he think to blame the game for anything (even the last one). Yet here I am with my copy of Men of War, I install it, use my serial number to register for MP and never have another worry, all because I know this game doesn't have any DRM.

Oh and side note, I consider a total lack of DRM to be a big selling point for ease of use. I have also stopped impulse game buying, I now check online reviews and what DRM (or lack of) a game has before buying, this is mainly due to buying Bioshock with it's 3 install limit (which I never bothered finishing and gave to a friend so he wouldn't spend money on the game). If ever a 100% effective DRM solution comes about but screws me over like today's hostile DRM, then I will simply stop buying new games for the PC, consoles should catch up in 20 years.

and @ chizow, STFU. You spam these threads with regurgitated arguments over and over again, now any post I see with your name I skip because you have nothing new to add and any disagreements have be said over and over. A post here and there is fine, but after that you have nothing to add to the conversation.
 
lol. People are already arguing with chizow before he even said anything. I guess we can just assume he has called you all out on spreading FUD and misinformation because you have no idea how DRM schemes like SecuROM work.

Anyway, to address the OP: DRM is an important consideration for me. I won't purchase or install any game with known-malicious DRM. I have admittedly put up with some that I feel infringe on my rights as a consumer, but I draw the line at SecuROM. Maybe it's improved since I had issues, but I'm not willing to give it another shot. No phoning home every week, no activations that can expire, no disabling other software or optical drives. I'm down with a CD key check, but that's about it. I've put up with Steam's DRM because I've capitalized on some of their weekend deals, but there are lots of valid objections to that platform as well.

I would also like to know before I install a game exactly what additional DRM software may be installed and what it will do, without having to parse through angry forum threads like this one may become. 😉
 
Originally posted by: Dell John B
Before key community members come in and wrap me with the Jolly Roger for even asking the questions, I have to say I'm sincerely curious. Is DRM a deterrent to gaming purchases? What do people consider to be fair DRM practices? Where's the line?

Like I said in the blog, I'm not against DRM as a whole, I just think there's a line publisher's probably souldn't cross, and I think DRM as it's employed is curbing normal gamer behavior for the PC exclusively.

e.g. How many gamers bring their new XBox game over to a friend's house to share? I'd say more than a few... this is normal behavior. You can't do this with a lot of PC titles...
Click to expand...

DRM is a deterent to me. A game has to be very interesting for me to justify buying it when it includes abrasive DRM (read Starforce or some versions of Securom). I don't bother buying games that interest me but have activation limits (although I have played them when they are gifts; but I have always formatted my computer after I finish playing them as the computer always has issues after installing the game for some reason.)

That said, I feel that Piracy has always been the biggest deterent to PC games. It is the biggest market for video games in the world, bar none, yet very few companies ever post a profit making games for PC's. This has been an issue as far back as I remember, with Sierra having trouble even though they made the best games (Space Quest, Kings Quest, Police Quest, etc.) Id went to extreme measures (at the time) to combat piracy with Quake. (although that didn't work at all)

Next is the lack of a unified driver structure for components that the games need to run. They have to work on a slew of different hardware configurations, and it is nigh impossible to test every part of the game on every possible computer configuration.

DRM is really behind these two things in keeping back PC gaming. Even so, PC gaming can never die unless the PC is rendered obsolete by something else. There are hundreds of millions of PC's in the world, so there will never be a shortage of programmers willing to try to make a game to run on them. They just may eventually get tired of the above issues, and move on to a new medium; but more programmers will come and take their place.
 
Originally posted by: Martimus
That said, I feel that Piracy has always been the biggest deterent to PC games. It is the biggest market for video games in the world, bar none, yet very few companies ever post a profit making games for PC's. This has been an issue as far back as I remember, with Sierra having trouble even though they made the best games (Space Quest, Kings Quest, Police Quest, etc.) Id went to extreme measures (at the time) to combat piracy with Quake. (although that didn't work at all)

Next is the lack of a unified driver structure for components that the games need to run. They have to work on a slew of different hardware configurations, and it is nigh impossible to test every part of the game on every possible computer configuration.

DRM is really behind these two things in keeping back PC gaming. Even so, PC gaming can never die unless the PC is rendered obsolete by something else. There are hundreds of millions of PC's in the world, so there will never be a shortage of programmers willing to try to make a game to run on them. They just may eventually get tired of the above issues, and move on to a new medium; but more programmers will come and take their place.
Click to expand...

This is all pretty ballsy speculation if you ask me. Game dev studios/publishers don't make a profit? Uhh... This is a very profitable industry, even with piracy threatening it. (Which is not a dismissal of the problem.)

"Unified driver structure for components"? Do you even know what you're talking about? How is software-based DRM a driver issue? If you're talking about something like HDCP, that's something different entirely.

Sorry, I'm with you in spirit when it comes to opposing aggressive DRM, but this kind of nonsense is what gives DRM proponents ammunition.
 
DRM does not bother me,I buy all my games legit,never had any real issues,games will always be pirated with or without DRM, there'll always be gamers with issues with or without DRM,bottomline if I see a game I like then I go and buy it regardless.
 
Originally posted by: Dell John B
This feedback is awesome!

Thanks to everyone who's chimed in so far.
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You should look at the DRM in Riddick: Dark Athena thread, DRM Petition thread and...DRM thread started by Red Irish (forget the specific title on the last one). Lots of discussion in those threads, and you'll...get a better idea where we're coming from with our chizow comments. 😉
 
Originally posted by: spittledip
I really don't think DRM is hurting gaming that much. Buggy ports are probably doing alot more damage.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The market is flooded with pump and dumb ports that perform terrible and half the time don't even have basic things like proper mouse support implemented. You can't dump a half ass console port that barely works with common PC controls and performs terrible on high end hardware onto the scene 6 months after the console version and expect it to sell well. Anyone who really wanted the game probably already bought it on console. And anyone who just plays PC games probably isn't interested is another poorly done console port. When the forgone conclusion of poor sales occurs, the publisher decides the poor sales are a sign of pirates or a dead market in PC games and responds by investing even less into the ports in the future. Enter negative feedback loop and a self fulfilling prophecy.

This hurts the good games on the market too because the signal to noise ratio gets so bad a lot of people just turn off the radio. There have always been crap games, but they usually didn't have a huge advertising budget to shove themselves in your face.

DRM is its own thing...its always been around, but only recently has it become a heavy chain around the neck of paying customers. CD checks were always annoying and a pain in the ass, but things like install limits are worse than the dongles for software used in the 80s. No one wants to put up with all that shit to just play a game. I've got more money then I did back when I played more games, but I won't spend money on one that gives me that kind of hassle. I just don't have time for that kind of shit anymore.

Still, I think PC Gaming's demise is greatly exaggerated. I think most of the hemming and hawing comes from larger publishers bemoaning the fact that the platform doesn't really fit their business model. The market is there, its just not growing at the breakneck pace of other markets.
 
Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
This is all pretty ballsy speculation if you ask me. Game dev studios/publishers don't make a profit? Uhh... This is a very profitable industry, even with piracy threatening it. (Which is not a dismissal of the problem.)

"Unified driver structure for components"? Do you even know what you're talking about? How is software-based DRM a driver issue? If you're talking about something like HDCP, that's something different entirely.

Sorry, I'm with you in spirit when it comes to opposing aggressive DRM, but this kind of nonsense is what gives DRM proponents ammunition.
Click to expand...

Drivers have nothing to do with DRM, nor did I say they did, I was saying that the massive number of configurations that the games have to run under are a bigger deterent to the PC gaming industry than DRM.

As for game developers not making a profit; most of the best developers from when I grew up are either no longer in business or are doing very poorly. Sierra is hanging by a thread. Atari is hemorraging cash, and is amazing that is is still alive. Take Two is doing very poorly (looks like they are about to go under), even though they have multiple cash cows in Guitar Hero and GTA.

Bullfrog is gone. Ironworks is gone. Westwood is gone. Some are bought by larger publishers, but they ended up just disolving anyway. Entire genres of games that were very popular on PC games are no longer made (what happened to Wing Commander, Mech Warrior, or Tex Murphy games?)

DRM is an issue that keeps me from purchasing a bunch of games (for which I am somewhat greatful, as I spend less of my money) but I feel the bigger issues with PC gaming are based on support and profitability. DRM affects the second one more than the first, but it does have an affect on both. If PC gaming is to ever become as healthy as it should be, piracy rates need to be inverted (from 80-90% to 10-20%), and hardware supprt needs to be easier to do (the reason for my unified drivers comment; set an ansii standard that all components of a type need to have the same interface.)
 
Originally posted by: Dell John B
1. Game publishers notoriously marginalize complaints against their DRM practices. How important of a consideration is DRM to you when deciding on a game purchase?
Click to expand...
I used to not think about it back in the days of cd keys, code wheels, etc.. But it's come to the point now that DRM is invasive beyond being helpful IMO, especially to the paying customer. I'm always wary of what DRM a game contains, and will steer clear if it's the draconian type (Activation SecuROM, Activation TAGES, etc..)

What i'm mainly against are install limits and online activation. The problem that I have with those two things are that you may want to play the game a few years in the future, and if you've already used up all of your installs you may be out of luck if the publisher is either out of business or hard to contact. Neither of which are too far fetched.

I've heard certain publishers talk about removing install limits, activation, etc, after a certain point when the game is no longer selling, but there is never any date given. It's all just up in the air. The problem I have with that approach is there is never any way to know 100% that I will be able to easily play the game I purchased 5 maybe 10 years in the future. And if it's a good game, there is a high possibility I will want to do that. Plus, if Joe Schmoe installs the game and isn't informed about the DRM, how hard will it be for him to figure out what to do if he runs into problems? There is never very good disclosure of the DRM you will be installing on the box of these games, or in any descriptions online. We are usually only informed once there is a negative reaction from the public.


2. If DRM is a concern, what do you feel are "fair" rights restrictions? In the blog, I listed a few things I felt were "over the line".
Click to expand...
I didn't find this info on your blog, but maybe I wasn't looking deep enough.. IMO the DRM Petition on this forum nicely sums up what I and others here feel are fair rights when it comes to DRM and consumers.


3. Why do so many people attack the anti-DRM crowd as being "pro-pirate"?
Click to expand...
I don't pirate games, but since i'm anti-DRM there is sometimes an assumption i'm also pro-pirate. I never quite understood why one would think that, since pirates aren't actually the ones who have to deal with DRM. It really makes little sense if you think about it. The only guess I have is that pro-DRM advocates assume that if you're against the companies protecting themselves with DRM, then you must not care about those companies and thus you will pirate the game if given the chance. IMO they miss the point. It's not that we are against companies protecting themselves from pirates, it's that we're against draconian DRM that is proven time and time again to do nothing at stopping pirating. Any game will eventually be pirated no matter how good the protection. Invasive DRM may stop pirates for awhile, but at what cost to the publishers reputation and to the sales from potential customers who were driven away from the product because of the DRM employed?

Nowadays it seems like pirates are getting the better experience since they don't have to deal with the potential hassles. It should be the other way around. Publishers need to provide their paying customers with more incentives to buy games, like better support, an easy to use product, quick and meaningful updates, etc.. not more roadblocks like limited install DRM.

 
I think this issue is blown way out of proporation on both sides. The game devs claiming piracy kills the sales of their shitty game. And gamers claiming it destroys their computers making them useless.

Everybody was shatting their pants over the DRM in Vista. I have yet to run into a problem where a video, DVD, or MP3 wont play. Or DRM interefered with my creation of them either.

Personally I an a fan of a piece of DRM called Steam. Outiside of WoW I wont buy a game unless it comes on Steam.
 
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