Is democracy over rated?

[Patranus]

Well considering we don't have a democracy (and I doubt a democracy exists on earth) this question is almost impossible to answer.

Chalk up another win for those "stupid" changes to the Texas curriculum.

 

[Anarchist420]

Republics are fine as long as long as long as their central powers are very limited and enumerated and if they're extremely decentralized.

That said, the Constitution is way too democratic/majoritarian, because it didn't completely specifically and non-ambiguously enumerate the central government's powers--it simply gave the central government too much discretion over what its powers were.

 

[alkemyst]

hate to break it to you OP, but if everyone is wrong you may want to think about what being in a society entails.

Most people are so clueless it hurts and they vote out of fear or party affiliation vs real issues...if they make up the masses it's up to me to deal with them.

 

[Patranus]

That said, the Constitution is way too democratic/majoritarian, because it didn't completely specifically and non-ambiguously enumerate the central government's powers--it simply gave the central government too much discretion over what its powers were.

No, the powers were very specific but the federal government wanted more power so it claimed that the enumerated powers were ambiguous and needed "interpretation".

Lets take interstate commerce as an example. Everyone knows the commerce clause was designed to prohibit things like certain states from taxing other states at one rate while taxing other states at another rate. Then the federal government decided it wanted to use it to say the federal government can use it to say that you cannot move goods between states (power grab 1) and now the federal government uses it to say that intrastate commerce is someone interstate commerces and can also be regulated (power grab 2).

The constitution is VERY clear that all powers not enumerated in the constitution is left to the states but this idea has been flipped on its head. Instead of states controlling most of the power (as originally intended) with the federal government having limited yet strong power we now have a federal government with unlimited power and states that are impotent.

 

[TheBDB]

I completely agree, as long as I am the one in power...

 

[Siddhartha]

Hitler and Stalin are two good reasons for having the grunts being able to throw the villians out of office.

I am assuming that people who are against demcracy or a representative form of government think that only people they approve of will be in power but history is full of thugs and murderers taking control and making everyone pay.

 

[MJinZ]

Socialism and communism are the greatest evils of the world.

Why should YOU tell me how successful I can be?

Why should an engineer get the same pay check as a landscaper?

Society should not be ruled by elites because corruption nowadays would be minuscule in comparison to elites in power.

Elites could channel money to have whatever they want, keep the shit cleaners shit cleaners, and could have you killed because you didnt want to stay a shit cleaner

There is a reason people have a tendency from earlier times of kingdoms and ruling classes to freedom, liberties, and republics.


Gun ownership lies in self defense. Guns protect us from elites. Why do you think England was taking guns away from the colonies in the years prior to the revolutionary war, which was the backbone to the 2nd ammendment? Guns can protect us if the government tries to control us.


There is an essence of social Darwinism in a democracy. Those that work hard become rich and have good lives. Those who are lazy and dont work hard stay poor.

Its not even black and white these days anymore though. There are plenty of ways for the poor to get free education. they simply need to work hard.

My father lived in inner city NY. Now, after many years of hard work to get his education to become a lawyer, he isnt living in the same situtation.

Communism wouldnt have given him a chance.


Also, who decided the definition of wise? Wise can be described in countless ways.


Life is about making mistakes and learning from them. Just because someone makes a mistake in life doesnt mean they are stuck.


Lastly, I think everyone here, if they could decide would rather live in say.. the US over N. Korea. 100/100 times

Wowza. Textbook indoctrination and confusion between Democracy and Capitalism.

I Loled.

 

[MJinZ]

I am convinced more than ever that democracy is highly overrated.* Even a representative democracy or a republic isn't that best thing. Society is full of people who are backwards. People who minds are clouded by greed and or religion. Society should be ruled by those who are wise, and those who are progressive and freethinking. They should have absolute rule, because far to often when you give ordinary man the right to make choices he makes the wrong ones. Far too often do we see people voting and making decisions on government incorrectly. Far to often do we see people fight for backwards ideas such as gun ownership, and privatized health care. Giving these people a voice is detrimental to society.

No, democracy is not overrated. It ensures that everyone is capable of reaching a position of leadership, and that we are able to choose our leadership and usurp our leadership when we don't like what they're doing.

I do think capitalism is highly over-rated. Capitalism will probably fall at some point anyway.

 

[MJinZ]

You forget that when one person has this much power that person becomes corrupt. Humans are like that. Humans cannot handle power alone. That is why democracy is needed. Abuse of power will always happen. Such is human nature. Even small groups of people in power will display this feature because they are limited in their awareness of the surroundings. As such they make decisions based on what they see and know even if what they see and know is incomplete. How often is a policymaker presented with a document that is prepared by others. The person in power is not omniscient.
And must rely on summaries created by others. Here many flaws can be made. By accident or on purpose...

Democracy is the best way only to occasionally be exchanged by short reigns of controlled dictatorships to make the necessary changes that are needed.
Then the controlled dictatorship can be replaced by democracy once again.
To keep freedom alive, you sometimes have to take drastic measures.

Yay, more thoughtless rhetoric.

Perhaps your human nature is exactly like that, but to assume humans do not and can not become more noble through social and biological evolution is retarded.

 

[MJinZ]

Democracy is mob rule. I wouldn't trust a mob to make the correct long term decisions in life just as I wouldn't trust a single individual to do the same thing. There was a very good reason why our founding fathers shunned the French and their "Democracy". Our nation is a representative Republic for a very good reason.

We are a democratic republic.

 

[MJinZ]

Democracy fails miserably in most ways we don't want it to. It's a system where a bunch of fat and happy people on one side of the world are propagandized to let their military industry serve other industries by killing non-citizens on the other side of the world. People vote for the name they hear the most, and are uninformed and worse. Interests can buy the government and offices.

And yet, in the ongoing battle in the human race to try not to always have the few oppress the many, democracy has perhaps best done this, with leaders, however wrong they are, often trying to serve the public, with there being some boundaries on their actions to not upset the public too much, with the public interests a priority - even if not sometimes the highest - in policy discussions.

The vote makes the powers that be more accountable than they are in other systems to the public.

The powers might fool the public a lot and get them to elect liars who serve the powerful, but it's a lot better than not having the vote.

So, Democracy is highly overrated compared to the textbook of a rational people making good votes, but it's not overrated as having a lot of benefits for the public.

As the founding fathers said, we just need to protect it from things like the atrocious ruling in the last year that corporations can give unlimited funds in elections.

I would argue that you are being misled, actually, by Capitalism.

All your concerns about powerful people controlling/manipulating the system stems from being able to to achieve power almost exclusively through money, that is where capitalism fuels the fire.

 

[MJinZ]

No, the powers were very specific but the federal government wanted more power so it claimed that the enumerated powers were ambiguous and needed "interpretation".

Lets take interstate commerce as an example. Everyone knows the commerce clause was designed to prohibit things like certain states from taxing other states at one rate while taxing other states at another rate. Then the federal government decided it wanted to use it to say the federal government can use it to say that you cannot move goods between states (power grab 1) and now the federal government uses it to say that intrastate commerce is someone interstate commerces and can also be regulated (power grab 2).

The constitution is VERY clear that all powers not enumerated in the constitution is left to the states but this idea has been flipped on its head. Instead of states controlling most of the power (as originally intended) with the federal government having limited yet strong power we now have a federal government with unlimited power and states that are impotent.

The Constitution is only worth so much as it is relevant at the time. Example: the Constitution didn't do much less than endorse slavery.

As the times change, globalization necessitates stronger solidarity amongst states - namely military power.

 

[HumblePie]

Wouldn't know if there was anything wrong with a Democracy. There has never been a nation ruled by Democracy.

Ohh... you are one of the confused people aren't you? You failed to take US History classes and have no idea how our government was formed or how it works do you? Instead you just assume how you think it should it work from anecdotes taken from random sources in your life and decide that is how it should be but when reality intrudes upon your little idealized world of how the US government works, it causes faux outrage from you.


Here's a clue for you. We are a NOT a Democracy. We are a Democratic Constitutional Republic.

What do those three big words mean for you? It means were are a Republic first since that is the NOUN. The other two words describe our type of Republic. What exactly is a Republic? It means we have people who rule over us that are not monarchs. They are not permanently meant to rule but are given power to rule by a selection process. What is that selection process? Well, that is where the democratic part comes in. They are voted in by others.

This does not mean everyone votes. That's the other adjective describing out government. It's Constitutional. This means we have a document in place that spells out exactly how voting is done and provides limits and guidelines for how those in power should rule.

A true democracy is basically mob rule. It can never work and never will. However, the idea of having many ideas "ie votes" to help decide issues within certain parameters, ie designated by the Constitution, is something that works. We have a framework with the Constitution and have elected people meant to serve and rule the people.

 

[Infohawk]

Winston Churchill said it best-twice:

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

But his conclusion:

"It is said that democracy is the worst form of government except all others that have been tried."

/end thread

This. It's really that simple.

 

[nageov3t]

fascism is wonderful if you don't care about civil liberties and an open society.

 

[Throckmorton]

Yes, people are stupid, but a Republic can override public opinion and abolish slavery, outlaw segregation, allow previously unrepresented groups the right to vote, etc.

That's what makes it the best political system we've developed so far-- the ability of elected representatives to ram good and just law down the throats of stupid and/or evil people.

 

[Patranus]

The Constitution is only worth so much as it is relevant at the time. Example: the Constitution didn't do much less than endorse slavery.

As the times change, globalization necessitates stronger solidarity amongst states - namely military power.

*

Yes. And it was amended to prohibit slavery.
Hence the reason there was an amendment process.

Look at prohibition. That required a constitutional amendment to enact and repeal.

Now government over steps it's authority and implements prohibition on things like weed.

The fact of the matter is that the federal government has over stepped its authority and it is time for the states to take back their power b

 

[IceBergSLiM]

United states is not a democracy so get over it.

 

[dainthomas]

The ideal system is actually benevolent dictatorship (under the rule of His Imperial Benevolent Majesty Dainthomas I).

 

[her209]

In other words, a true democracy doesn't have representatives.

 

[bfdd]

Democracy is fine, it's the Democrats and Republicans that are the problem.

Amen to that.