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is declawing a cat cruel?

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Originally posted by: Conky
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: Conky
Cats are outdoor animals as far as I'm concerned.

I have a Rat Terrier who is far more proficient than a lazy cat when it comes to vermin.

I used to love cats when I was a kid but dogs are so much cooler and if you get a breed like the Rat Terrier you will never want another breed... they are wicked cool.
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Unfortunately the pro-dog owners you are weakly defending would argue you have a cat.

Didn't know vermin was a problem still in civilized places.
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Vermin is always an issue with estates near forests and water although I'm sure Orkin does a fine job at your housing project. 😉

And anyone who doubts my lion-hearted rat terrier's worth as a dog can take it up with her half-pitbull older sister although the little ratty just killed a bunny as big as herself who could've told you how fierce she can get. :shocked:
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Most here are considering house pets in suburbia. Being you are considering outdoor working animals would preclude even the pro-declaw folks like myself from recommending that.

I know well on all the terrier breeds, JRT's are very popular here and having one that's killed a rottweiler or shepard that got into it's yard is not a unique tale (sort of a pun).

These were bred to go after game in their burrows most often and they are terribly fierce fighters.

Still most dog owners don't really know much about dogs and will say a Rat Terrier is just a yappy little thing.

 
Originally posted by: Praetor
I was worried about my (then) new cat scratching up my (then) new furniture, so I asked the employee about getting him de-clawed.

She gave me a quick run down of what it involved and told me that she personally recommended that I not do it, but that the Humane Society would not prevent me from having it done. After hearing her description and thinking about it, I decided against de-clawing my cat. Scratching up the furniture has never been an issue, even before I spent serious money on him getting towers and scratching posts for him to play on.

On the other hand, as a kitten he would climb up my leg and shirt just so he could curl up around my neck. That hurt like hell. 😛 Cutting his claws was an adventure the first few times, but he's become fairly docile about it now.

Moral of the story? Don't de-claw the cat. 😀
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An employee at the Humane Society is more than likely a low paid person that just likes to work around animals. They are not authorities and most of the time those types are anti-anything having to do with altering the pet. She may have told you she wouldn't recommend spay/neutering; but I believe it's required they enforce that.


The sad fact that most here are missing is there are far too many cats out there (and dogs) for adoption. Most are destroyed. It's easy to say if someone wants to alter the animal in anyway they should not be adopting, but the fact is if these people didn't adopt and make the animal able to fit into their households properly....they'd be put down.


It's been proven that declawing and sexually altering a pet does nothing major to the personalities of MOST pets and more often than not makes them happier by not fighting instincts to have themselves breed. Unaltered females dogs and cats can be a mess to keep as well.
 
Originally posted by: OsoVerde
Declawed cats have posture problems from missing part of their feet and are more likely to get arthritis and screwed up joints, so that's more misery and loss of quality of life for the cat beyond recovery from the surgery. Imagine learning to walk without half of each of your toes.

Trim kitty's claws or get a scratching pad. My cats didn't like the traditional sort of upright scratching post but loved shredding the disposable corrugated cardboard catnippy ones.
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Where the F did you pick up this nonsense. You just pulled down the collective IQ of ATOT with that statement.

Cat's toes are nothing like ours, if you don't believe me here is a good write up (also just so you know cat's aren't bipedal; so function of bones/balance are way different than humans):

The cat?s bones in their feet are arranged differently to that of ours. The cat?s carpals and tarsals correspond to the bones in our toes and the cat?s metatarsals and metarcarpals correspond to the bones in our wrists and ankles. Our feet are in contact with the ground when we are walking and running, whereas the cat only makes contact with the ground using their toes when walking and running. The cat walks very differently when approaching prey; they are capable of flattening their body close to the ground by using their metacarpals and metatarsals as extensions to the paws. (It is interesting to note the single paw pad higher up the rear, of the front limbs, which must have its use when the crawling action needs to be adapted) Feline feet are regularly subjected to the stress of travelling at high speed and of also landing from great heights. To help them withstand this, the bones are strapped tightly together with ligamentous tissue, and the wrist and anklebones are arranged so that there is little possibility of lateral movement.

The pads of the domestic cat are made of modified skin covering a dense cushion of connective tissue, making them much harder than normal skin. The function of these hard pads is to act as shock absorbers, for binding the toes together and also for using as brakes.

The cat's claws grow from the last bone of the toe and are attached by tendons. They are modified skin: an outer cuticle of hard protein, Keratin, protects the dermis, or quick. Cat's claws are kept sheathed for protection on the move. A cat exposes its claws by contracting digital flexor muscles in its legs, pulling taut the flexor tendons.
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Just out of interest, did you just get your kitty declawed, and now you're desperately trying to justify your cruelty to ease your conscience?

Or are you just the usual garden variety ATOT asshat who loves to pimp crap without any personal knowledge or connection to the issue?

I'm tending towards the latter, with due cynicism this place breeds 😉
 
i dunno, are you trying to ease your conscience over genitally mutilating cats for human convenience and amusement?
 
Originally posted by: dug777
Just out of interest, did you just get your kitty declawed, and now you're desperately trying to justify your cruelty to ease your conscience?

Or are you just the usual garden variety ATOT asshat who loves to pimp crap without any personal knowledge or connection to the issue?

I'm tending towards the latter, with due cynicism this place breeds 😉
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It would be helpful if you quoted or mentioned who you are talking about.

I have stated my knowledge base. My education was zoology for 7 years. I worked with a vet for 2 of those years. I am active in animal charities and organizations.

Although it doesn't give one expertise or even any scientific knowledge, I also currently own 3 cats. Grew up with 3 others and have been a contact for many of my friends and families when animal problems happen after vet hours. I had 4 others about 10 years ago, but my ex during our divorce took them to animal control even though I was paying her 'support' money each month.

All of my cats have been known to have 'dog like' personalities. They come and want to play with people, are not skittish, let me at least hold their paws as long as I want (mostly, but far long enough to clip their rear toenails), and are very healthy. I have many friends that wonder why their cats just run and hide even when they come home...most cannot mention any time that they seriously played with the pet...most will defend themselves stating they bought every cat toy in the world.

Almost any veternarian will defend declawing for indoor cats, as well as sexually altering dogs and cats. It's always best if you did not have to as anesthesia is a big risk to any small animal and nothing to take lightly even in humans/larger animals.

It doesn't maim them or destroy their personalities. It opens up more homes to the multitude more that would be put to sleep otherwise. As I have stated before, it's unfortunate; but there are far more animals out there than homes. The best thing for the animals is to find them homes...just ending a highly intelligent animal's life is a waste.

There are a few in this thread that seem to know what they are talking about and many that are making analogues to human anatomy thinking that's what a cat must experience as well as not even acknowledging the methods of 'declawing' that do not remove the claw.

Alternatives just as soft paws require nail clipping. Nail clipping is tedious for many people to do and causes a lot of trauma every few weeks for the pet when it's not done right. Cat and dog nails can be crushed with the right tools even when care and maintenance of them are not considered. Many people are busy enough as it is to dedicate this extra care to the pet and lash out at it when it naturally tries to shed it's own claws. Also it's extremely easy to miss just one clipping only to come home to ruined property.

Some people consider a $10 sheer, or $50 speaker grill as 'So what...', but some people have $1000's that can be ruined with one claw swipe. They can usually provide a great home for the animal otherwise and unlike many here have no problem forking out a couple grand when their pets get sick. So many here have a 'if it's more than $100 put the animal down attitude' and a probably defending non-declawing because it's not free and quite a few places require it for adoption along with spay/neutering which also is not free.
 
Originally posted by: alkemyst
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Almost any veternarian will defend declawing for indoor cats, as well as sexually altering dogs and cats.

[/quote]

While i am well aware of the latter, i have never met a vet here who advocated declawing (and i have met quite a few in my time, vet students, through working at the Ag Department, friend's parents, and the various vets we have used around Aus over the years) 😉

EDIT: As i suspected 😉

Looks like a significant proportion of the developed world has a problem with it, and AVMA policy doesn't exactly give declawing a ringing endorsement 😉


http://www.avma.org/issues/pol..._welfare/declawing.asp

The AVA:

6.10 - Claw removal in dogs, cats and ferrets

Policy

The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) does not support claw removal from dogs, cats and ferrets unless it is necessary for the welfare of the animal.
 
right, and in most european countries its very very hard to buy a hand gun😛 surely they must be right😛
australias a place where they recently ruled its just dandy for a gay themed hotel to ban all hetro customers. and where you can't even donate sperm anonymously, the kids have the right to hunt you down.
meaningless.
and a stretch that you had to go to australia to find anything for your side😛

 
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
right, and in most european countries its very very hard to buy a hand gun😛 surely they must be right😛
australias a place where they recently ruled its just dandy for a gay themed hotel to ban all hetro customers. and where you can't even donate sperm anonymously, the kids have the right to hunt you down.
meaningless.
and a stretch that you had to go to australia to find anything for your side😛
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That was quite a bit of xenophobic, moronic ranting you did right there 😉

Strange that the AMVA doesn't seem very keen on declawing either :Q


 
Originally posted by: dug777

Strange that the AMVA doesn't seem very keen on declawing either :Q
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You are confusing their stand on exotic cats for domestic ones. Please learn to use Google.

edit: wasn't done posting...

Also a lot of the adversion of declawing stems from the fact that owner's still put declawed cats out at night.

The main caveat both these organizations have is 'for the welfare of the animal'. The AMVA of course would rather not have declawing...but they will defend it. Advocating is not the same as defending.

Just declawing to declaw is what they are against. They want owners to be involved in training and socializing their pets not making them lawn ornaments.

However; comparing Austrailan laws/mores to that of the US and Europe is problematic.
 
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: dug777

Strange that the AMVA doesn't seem very keen on declawing either :Q
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You are confusing their stand on exotic cats for domestic ones. Please learn to use Google.

edit: wasn't done posting...

Also a lot of the adversion of declawing stems from the fact that owner's still put declawed cats out at night.

The main caveat both these organizations have is 'for the welfare of the animal'. The AMVA of course would rather not have declawing...but they will defend it. Advocating is not the same as defending.

Just declawing to declaw is what they are against. They want owners to be involved in training and socializing their pets not making them lawn ornaments.

However; comparing Austrailan laws/mores to that of the US and Europe is problematic.
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Your initial comment confused me, since i linked to an AMVA document on domestic cats...not sure the edit cleared my confusion 😱

It was interesting to learn that declawing is such a North American thing, certainly it's never been practiced where i have lived (Aus/UK/Solomon Islands/Kenya)...

Here (WA) i think it's actually illegal under the Animal Welfare Act, unless the vet can prove it was necessary for their welfare...
 
Originally posted by: alkemyst
Originally posted by: sourceninja
The best part is, with as little as I apparently know about cats, I have had well over a dozen. And not a single one has EVER clawed my furniture. I'm just freaking lucky. Or it could be that I spend time with them and freaking TRAIN them.
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what furniture did you have?

Also why do you speak of a dozen in past tense?

My cats are trained, however go troll!
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I currently have 3 cats. I have had 12 cats (not at the same time). Right now I have a leather couch, chair, and foot rest. My computer chair is microswede, I have lots of wood tables. Not a single cat scratch on any of it.
 
This topic has always somewhat interested me. Because when I think about it logically, I feel, if we are all ok with neutering our pets, what would be the big problem with removing the claws? But then a quick run to wikipedia brings up the following information:

"The incidence of declawing varies widely from country to country, as do the laws governing its practice. Many European countries prohibit or significantly restrict the practice, as do Australia, Brazil, Israel, New Zealand, Japan and Turkey.

Australia

In Australia, legislation concerning animal welfare is enacted at the state level and is highly inconsistent. There are ongoing efforts to develop a National Animal Welfare Act; in its current state, the bill would prohibit the declawing of cats except for medical reasons. However, some pro-wildlife campaigners advocate declawing (and possibly defanging) to protect native wildlife from pet cats.

Europe

In many European countries the practice is forbidden under the terms of the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals, unless there is a medical indication for the procedure, or a veterinarian considers it beneficial to the animal. Some European countries go further, such as Germany and Switzerland, where declawing cats is always illegal under their laws against cruelty to animals."

So you've got a practice that really isn't well liked outside of the US. But then you go to AVMA and read this:

"There is no scientific evidence that declawing leads to behavioral abnormalities when the behavior of declawed cats is compared with that of cats in control groups."

The argument that alkemyst has been arguing is also on AVMA's website:

"Scientific data do indicate that cats that have destructive clawing behavior are more likely to be euthanatized, or more readily relinquished, released, or abandoned, thereby contributing to the homeless cat population. Where scratching behavior is an issue as to whether or not a particular cat can remain as an acceptable household pet in a particular home, surgical onychectomy may be considered."

Basically, there are cats you will not be able to train out of their natural clawing behavior. AVMA realizes that declawing them is much better than just outright killing them.

Also, Wikipedia says this regarding cutting the tendons instead of declawing:

"Tendonectomy is surgical alternative to declawing sometimes practiced in North America. This surgery involves cutting the deep digital flexor tendon of each claw, resulting in the cat being unable to move its distal phalanges. Without the ability to expose its claws, the cat is unable to wear down or groom its claws. For this reason, the cat subsequently requires a lifetime of regular nail clippings to prevent its claws from growing into its paw pads. A 1998 study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association comparing cats undergoing onychectomy to cats undergoing tendonectomy found that, although the cats undergoing tendonectomy appeared to suffer less pain immediately post-operatively, there was no significant difference in postoperative lameness, bleeding, or inflection between the two groups.[12] The American Veterinary Medical Association and the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association explicitly do not recommend this surgery as an alternative to declawing[13] [14]."

Basically, it is a poor choice, if you are even considering declawing at all, go that route, don't bother with the tendon slicing procedure.

Personally, I think there is an obvious benefit to having an indoor cat that doesn't scratch.
 
It may be cruel but the other option is a dirtnap.

Anyways my cats are so terrible with their back claws we may be yanking those as well. We had leather furniture they turned to shreds. Luckily my father needed some furniture for a condo in FL. Now we have micro fiber and one of them apparently must have did the accelerate to 110% in one leap thing and cut clean through the fabric exposing the stuffing underneath. I am not going to have them destroy another set of couches. I love my cats, but these two are the worst of any cat I have ever had when it comes to using their claws. Most of my former cats understood not to use their claws.

 
Let me give you both of the answers on both extreme ends.

Reactionary sensationalistic animal-rights answer:
"No! How about I pull out all of your fingernails and toenails with a rusty pair of pliers and then see how YOU feel!?"

Dog lover:
"Cats are stupid, and I don't need them tearing up my furniture with their damn useless claws. I mean they're domesticated animals, WTF do they need claws for? Dogs are better."
 
Originally posted by: Skacer

"Tendonectomy is surgical alternative to declawing sometimes practiced in North America. This surgery involves cutting the deep digital flexor tendon of each claw, resulting in the cat being unable to move its distal phalanges. Without the ability to expose its claws, the cat is unable to wear down or groom its claws. For this reason, the cat subsequently requires a lifetime of regular nail clippings to prevent its claws from growing into its paw pads. A 1998 study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association comparing cats undergoing onychectomy to cats undergoing tendonectomy found that, although the cats undergoing tendonectomy appeared to suffer less pain immediately post-operatively, there was no significant difference in postoperative lameness, bleeding, or inflection between the two groups.[12] The American Veterinary Medical Association and the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association explicitly do not recommend this surgery as an alternative to declawing[13] [14]."

Basically, it is a poor choice, if you are even considering declawing at all, go that route, don't bother with the tendon slicing procedure.

Personally, I think there is an obvious benefit to having an indoor cat that doesn't scratch.
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You are right...cutting the tendons is a creation for those that think it's akin to removing the top finger joint / phalagne. The problem with it is the claw continues to grow and the cat can't shed it.

The typical owner doesn't usually want to clip toenails for their pets and usually thinks it's a non-issue since it's declawed.

I will advise any against using the internet as a source for declaw info. There are sites with 'Dr.' quotes posting a ton of misinformation that would apply to both clawed and declawed cats.

The common ones are:
Declawed cats ALWAYS:

Are more aggressive.

Urinate in the home.

Bite everyone.

End up with hip and skeletal-muscular problems.

Are not affectionate.

Are constantly sick.

etc.

To the non-cat experienced or those that have owned bad/declawed cats it makes sense. To the clawed cat owner, they may say their cats have the same problems.

Alot of cats for adoption came from pretty feral mothers.

A kitten born in the wild is a lot less domesticated than a dog born the same way.
 
Well which is less cruel?
1) Declawing the cat.
2) Killing the cat when he ruins all of my furniture.

Don't give me this BS about if you provide a place to scratch and show them the cat will use it. Like hell. He had 2 scratching posts and 2 carpeted cat perches all of which would have been fine to scratch. But he prefered my furniture instead even after I swatted him every time I caught him. So he would just scratch the furniture when I wasn't looking/there.
 
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