Is compassion circumstantial?

[moonbogg]

I've heard people say things like, "All the world needs is love" and "We need to have compassion" to build a better world. I do agree in some ways, but I have some other thoughts.
What happens when your compassion is put to the test, such as when you must choose between having compassion and your own survival? If there isn't enough food to go around, that is a concrete problem that will result in people dying. Will you let yourself die for others?
What are the limits of love and compassion, and if there are limits, then is love and compassion only circumstantial and perhaps even illusory altogether?

 

[Caravaggio]

....What are the limits of love and compassion, and if there are limits, then is love and compassion only circumstantial and perhaps even illusory altogether?

I believe that research has shown compassion, even love, to be highly circumstantial.

People who have been in extreme environments have witnessed all compassion utterly disappear.
Primo Levi, a brilliant research chemist, was sent to Auschwitz. He survived, but at great personal cost. He describes longing for his bunk mate above him to die, so he could steal a dried crust he knew was hidden in his clothes.

In Orwell's '1984', Winston Smith asks his torturerers to torture his lover instead of him, because he cannot abide the rats placed on his face in room 101.

Oates left his tent saying "I might be gone for some time". His companions did not attempt to bring him back. They knew he had gone into the South Pole blizzard to die, because he was a burden.

International studies of the rates of return of (artificially) 'lost' property show that whether a lost wallet is returned to its owner depends on many variables, especially the economic need of the finder.
The best rate of return was in Finnland, BTW.

 

[OverVolt]

Yes...it is circumstantial essentially.

These are things that are likely hard wired into human nature, like the ability to shop/trade/haggle.

Its not really illusory... its just human nature. There are many different social constructs people are innately prepared to survive through at varying degrees of success. Like in war, there are certain people who are just wired to be a coward, pacifist, leader, etc. IMO. You won't really know until you throw them into the situation for the most part.

 

[Greenman]

Compassion comes from being in a better situation than others. Very few have the inner strength to carry that into life or death situations.

 

[Moonbeam]

Compassion is compassion. Thinking about compassion is thinking. You can't think a feeling. You feel a feeling. Thinking implies a thinker and an object of thought, a separation, duality, divided being. Thought is of the past. In thought there is no being. In being, there are no questions because questions are thinking. Feel compassion and you will feel fine.

 

[Caravaggio]

Compassion is compassion. Thinking about compassion is thinking. You can't think a feeling. You feel a feeling. Thinking implies a thinker and an object of thought, a separation, duality, divided being. Thought is of the past. In thought there is no being. In being, there are no questions because questions are thinking. Feel compassion and you will feel fine.

Apart from the statements which are entirely circular and obvious ("compassion is compassion") I think you are wrong in all particulars.

You say that "You cannot think a feeling".

You most certainly can. Allow me to develop an example:-

You are flying an aircraft on the final approach. You are perfectly lined-up but the PAPI is showing three reds, the stall-warner is blaring in your ear and your angle of attack is too high. These separate pieces of information will together induce an emotion (anxiety/fear) and I promise you that you will be thinking about that emotion and that emotion will propell you into rapid thinking. If the emotion does not provoke any thoughts you will crash. Thinking about the emotion will continue until creative thoughts lead to actions which reduce the emotion. Thus thinking and emotion are intimately linked and rapidly blended in a person's cognition.
It is even possible to think about an old emotion and thus reproduce it. Think about a long-lost family member or pet, say.

Not only can we 'think' about emotions we can manipulate them, study them, measure them, ( what is a lie detector doing but allowing us to think about our own or someone else's emotions). In that case the physiological responses which correlate with an emotion can be graphed as we think about them.

We can study compassion and altruism individually and collectively (by culture) by looking at rates of blood and organ donation. When this is done the results show stark and interesting national differences. Taking blood donation as a measure of 'altruism' or compassion, try Titmuss's book "The Gift Relationship".

 

[Moonbeam]

Apart from ...., I think you are wrong in all particulars. ".

That's fine by me. I don't worry. I know I'm right. I feel it instinctively.

The centipede was happy quite until the toad in fun

said pray which leg goes after which.

And the centipede lay distracted in a ditch considering how to run.

Twas brilig and time for bed. May your shadow never grow less. A merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

 

[Caravaggio]

I know I'm right. I feel it instinctively.

Jolly good for you.
Have you thought of a job with Glenn Beck?

 

[moonbogg]

I suppose if times were really rough, like a post apocalyptic scenario, I could feel compassion for you as I steal your food and take your weapons.

 

[Moonbeam]

Jolly good for you.
Have you thought of a job with Glenn Beck?

You don't seem to get it. I don't bother with thought. I thought myself long ago to the end of time and woke up in heaven. Suffering flew out the window as thought did. Thought is separation and feeling ones being is joy itself. You and Glen Beck have thought in common.

Do you know about the enlightenment, that rights are inalienable? Why, because the truth is inalienable too. And that truth is the truth of being. When you are you know you are and you know also everything there is to know. It's inseparable from your being. Go sit under a tree and realize that thought is ego and ego wants to rule. You are in a prison from which there is no escape. Your prison is the ego and the ego will not let go. How do you make the ego die when it is the ego that is the executioner and will only play tricks on you. How does thought end itself. It ends when the mind sees the trap and the mailman rings the bell. We have a special delivery for you. It's grace. Put yourself in the middle of the road where there's a chance she will run you down in her mail truck.

 

[Caravaggio]

You don't seem to get it. I don't bother with thought. I thought myself long ago to the end of time and woke up in heaven. Suffering flew out the window as thought did. Thought is separation and feeling ones being is joy itself. You and Glen Beck have thought in common.

Do you know about the enlightenment, that rights are inalienable? Why, because the truth is inalienable too. And that truth is the truth of being. When you are you know you are and you know also everything there is to know. It's inseparable from your being. Go sit under a tree and realize that thought is ego and ego wants to rule. You are in a prison from which there is no escape. Your prison is the ego and the ego will not let go. How do you make the ego die when it is the ego that is the executioner and will only play tricks on you. How does thought end itself. It ends when the mind sees the trap and the mailman rings the bell. We have a special delivery for you. It's grace. Put yourself in the middle of the road where there's a chance she will run you down in her mail truck.

Are you a Buddhist?

For someone who claims to have renounced all 'ego', your absent ego seems very keen to diminish mine!

But you do write well, I must say.

 

[Moonbeam]

Are you a Buddhist?

For someone who claims to have renounced all 'ego', your absent ego seems very keen to diminish mine!

But you do write well, I must say.

I cannot diminish your ego. Your ego is and exists as a protection, an armor against the diminishment of your inalienable and real self that happened to you long ago. We were all brutally put down as children. It is an attachment to a completely arbitrary standard of supposed high regard instilled by our parents, peers, and the society around us, the adherence to which we imagine confers that regard to us. It was by conforming to the norm, and there are billions of them changing from day to day, that we were given an ego to fall in love with. Thus we became two beings, the one we are conscious of and project into the world as our smiling selves, and the one we suppress and have become unconscious of, the self we were made to feel is worthless, the unconscious projection of which is often thought of as the devil, our notions of evil.

Any time these facts are presented to those who are armored and protected by ego, the ego senses the threat. Something is threatening to awaken us to our hidden and suppressed pain. And because you don't know this it feels like me doing it to you, that I want to diminish your ego.

We hate our real selves, the self in us that is perfect, our original self, whole and undivided. This fact can't really be taken in without us becoming defensive. There is nothing I can do about that but assure you uselessly, that if there was a way for me to diminish your ego, it would be to your benefit.

But the whole point is that we are hopelessly trapped. I can't diminish your ego and neither can you. The self that seeks spiritual realization, that wants happiness is the ego, the thing that does not realize it's own perfection. There is nowhere to go and nothing to become. The only thing wrong with any of us is our deep unconscious, hidden and massively denied feeling that there is, that we are evil itself. Thinking is the rat cage we run to keep from feeling that.

Am I a Buddhist? No, but Zen saved my life. At a time when I had reached the end of my rope I chanced on some Zen stories one of which caused me to let go and die. Only for a split second, mind you. There's only so much perfection a worthless fuck like me can take.

 

[Caravaggio]

Moonbeam, post 12.

Another great piece of writing but there is a problem here, I think.

You have had a moment of blinding personal insight and I am glad that it came in time for you to find inner peace. But you are moving from the personal to the generally prescriptive.

Are you saying that your insight will be valid for us all?
You use language which implies that you have high regard for the psychodynamic tradition of Freud and Jung. Modern cognitive neuro-psychology is uncomfortable with those terms as they imply structures and functions that don't relate to the findings from FMRI brain imaging.

I realise your insights are valid for you but not all people who confront the "end of the rope moment"' have your biophilous creativity and capacity for self reflection.
Andreas Lubwitz had his crisis and solved it with a narcissistic inner rage leading to mass murder.
We are not all moving down the same road at the same pace.

John Keats dealt with his crisis by writing 'Ode to a Nightingale', when he started coughing up blood shortly before his death. He wanted to 'cease on this midnight with no pain' and gave us a timeless treasure.

Same existential crisis, different route out....

 

[Moonbeam]

Caravaggio: Another great piece of writing but there is a problem here, I think.

M: Thank you. I am generally insulted about my writing. There is indeed a problem but I think it's the fact that truth is ineffable. In Zen this is expressed as the finger pointing at the moon isn't the moon. Words are the language of pointers. Words are memories of ideas, thinking, but truth isn't an idea it's a state of being, a conscious state of awareness of everything uncommented upon. The mind that awakens into the silence of being, without comment or movement away from what is seem, is a reflection of the universe that can't be distinguished from it. It is a state of oneness with everything. This state of awareness can't be transferred or given away. But it is our original being, the state in which we came into the world. It is our separation from it that the sensitive experience as longing.

C: You have had a moment of blinding personal insight and I am glad that it came in time for you to find inner peace.

Thank you again. Blinding isn't the word I would use. I was in a deep and prolonged state of contemplation, trying to understand why I suffered, ticking off and disregarding idea after idea, when a big gust of wind shook the house. Instantly I switch from this deep state of introspection to the body experience of that sound. I woke up in the present and the juxtaposition of those two states of consciousness and the suddenness of the transition filled me with understanding. I had my answer because all my questions had disappeared. I felt only calm and went to sleep. My suffering had vanished.

What I had suffered from is unconscious assumptions. I grew up believing in God and the existence of God means that no suffering will go unrequited for those who are good. I set out then to prove there is a good. I was a fairly good thinker, back then, so good, in fact, that I failed. I read all I could and found only fools, folk who had tricked themselves into thinking there is a good. I punched holes in everything to the point where I had destroyed everything sacred I had ever been taught to believe. It is the cold benign indifference of the universe' and the utter meaningless of existence that cause my deep depression. I had lost everything and knew I would never be happy again.

Zen taught me that there are people in the East that are happy and see the same emptiness that I did. I could not understand this. I didn't know that I carried an unconscious bias that life has to have meaning to be happy. What I didn't realize was that all the love I hoped to find from the knowledge that the universe is good, doesn't work that way. That love already and has always existed. That love is the true self. One does not bask in the love of God. One tears open ones chest and all that love floods out. There is only love. That was my personal experience

C: But you are moving from the personal to the generally prescriptive.

M: Here is another personal experience which I think points to generalities:

"I was Rama, I was Krishna, I was this One, I was that One, and now I am Meher Baba. In this form of flesh and blood, I am that same Ancient One who is eternally worshipped and ignored, ever remembered and forgotten. I am that Ancient One whose past is worshipped and remembered, whose present is ignored and forgotten, and whose future (Advent) is anticipated with great fervour and longing.

I am the Ancient One. Not a leaf has the power to quiver without My wish. I am the One who knows everything about everyone.

I am God. I am in you all. I never come and I never go. I am present everywhere.

The glory of the suns is the seventh shadow of My real state of Reality. Even a glimpse of the glory is enough for one to lose all consciousness.

I am the Universal Thief; I steal hearts."

C: Are you saying that your insight will be valid for us all?

M: These are some world purportedly spoken by a Yaqui Indian shaman:

"There are a million paths in life and they all lead nowhere. Choose a path that has a heart."

C: You use language which implies that you have high regard for the psychodynamic tradition of Freud and Jung.

M: At times I do. Psychotherapy is another of those God not needed potential paths to truth, in my opinion.

The Sufis claim that a person of knowledge, for lack of a better expression, teaches according to the time, the place, in other words, the conditioning of his disciples. In the countries where Sufism is visible, it is usually Islamic in nature. Fingers come in different languages, only the moon in the moon.

C: Modern cognitive neuro-psychology is uncomfortable with those terms as they imply structures and functions that don't relate to the findings from FMRI brain imaging.

M: In my opinion, most psychologists and psychiatrists don't understand the 'truth' that I understand to be truth. They do not know what they feel. many go into that profession, I was told by one who knew the truth of which I speak, again my opinion, as having done so to become better at being sick.

I would imagine that the neuroscientists are potentially worse. You know about the God spot, a place in the brain that when stimulated by machines creates a sense of Presence, a feeling that one is not alone? For a neuroscientist it's all about data and chemical reactions in the brain. No personal wisdom or self understanding required, no personal experience of conscious states either. Some see the God spot on a graph while others live in it. One can live in the linear world of equations or the holistic world of magic or one can live in the state appropriate for the conditions.

I mentioned, I think, the power of the ego, the tremendous fear it lives in that past memories of pain will awaken. You may not be aware of how powerfully we have a need to deny and to ignore truth that is right in front of out face. That we hate ourselves is the last thing we ever what to know.

C: I realise your insights are valid for you but not all people who confront the "end of the rope moment"' have your biophilous creativity and capacity for self reflection.
Andreas Lubwitz had his crisis and solved it with a narcissistic inner rage leading to mass murder.
We are not all moving down the same road at the same pace.

John Keats dealt with his crisis by writing 'Ode to a Nightingale', when he started coughing up blood shortly before his death. He wanted to 'cease on this midnight with no pain' and gave us a timeless treasure.

Same existential crisis, different route out....

M: I stood on the backs of giants. I would like only to throw my little rope to those who suffer. I am a nobody and I see nothing special about me. The only gift that I can think of that might be unusual somewhat is that my Mother told me to be honest. No better way I can think of to fuck up your kid.

 

[Caravaggio]

M: Thank you. I am generally insulted about my writing.
......
M: I stood on the backs of giants. I would like only to throw my little rope to those who suffer. I am a nobody and I see nothing special about me. The only gift that I can think of that might be unusual somewhat is that my Mother told me to be honest. No better way I can think of to fuck up your kid.

I'm surprised about negativity about your writing. You were probably speaking philosophically and your detractors were listening in gibberish.

You have obviously swum in deep pools the reflections of which I have only briefly glimpsed.

I did have something akin to your "Wind that shook the house" moment. I found an injured wild animal, nursed it back to what seemed like robust good health then it suddenly died in my hands. That moment derailed me for about a decade. However valuable the experience, and it was very useful for a while, it distracted me from getting on with my life where it enmeshed with others close to me.

Your childhood exposure to religion and faith resonates with me too. Parents tell us what to believe because they were told in turn. It takes ages to think independently and even then we are constrained by the limits of language. Iranian friends tell me that they hate speaking English because, while it illuminates tiny patches very brightly, it has none of the expansive perspective of Farsi. Farsi speakers obviously see the world differently. You talk of Meher Baba, you obviously know that.

The other constraint on my thinking is being English by culture. The English are a private, controlled and formal people, we make Germans seem like hippies. The benefits are immense but the costs are high, we distrust virtually any claim to expertise. Thus when you speak of "being God" and making the leaves quiver
the Englishman in me recoils at such certainty. I don't doubt your sincerity but that headspace is 'outside my radius of operations'. My loss, you will say?

Yet we agree on the need for goodness and honesty. If only as an aspiration. Good actions are an entirely different matter but always worth the extra effort.
I feel sure that compassion is a shared value too, to return to the theme of this thread.

 

[Moonbeam]

Caravaggio: I'm surprised about negativity about your writing. You were probably speaking philosophically and your detractors were listening in gibberish.

M: Well, maybe sometimes and maybe not other times. I have formulated so many ideas so many times that I sort of have developed my own code which I don't think always makes sense to others. I told you that thinking wasn't such a good thing, but that is a long and complex thing to try to explain.

C: You have obviously swum in deep pools the reflections of which I have only briefly glimpsed.

M: I think I am a nobody. I don't say that out of humility or self deprecation, but rather as just a fact.

C: I did have something akin to your "Wind that shook the house" moment. I found an injured wild animal, nursed it back to what seemed like robust good health then it suddenly died in my hands. That moment derailed me for about a decade. However valuable the experience, and it was very useful for a while, it distracted me from getting on with my life where it enmeshed with others close to me.

M: When I was just a young boy, I had a friend named Steven and we went exploring. We found a swallow nest and he accidently broke it and the eggs smashed and he went crazy with grief. I love people who feel such things. I feel sad that they do, but I still love them for it. It was an accident but he felt such pain. We are helpless to change the past. Such big hearts some have and so much pain that can bring.

C: Your childhood exposure to religion and faith resonates with me too. Parents tell us what to believe because they were told in turn. It takes ages to think independently and even then we are constrained by the limits of language. Iranian friends tell me that they hate speaking English because, while it illuminates tiny patches very brightly, it has none of the expansive perspective of Farsi. Farsi speakers obviously see the world differently. You talk of Meher Baba, you obviously know that.

M: Hehe, I thought about reports that I have heard that the psychological and metaphysical ideas are much easier to express in Farci than in English. I've heard, for example, in Russian you there is one word for to speak and to say, which are different things in English when I was composing that post.

C: The other constraint on my thinking is being English by culture. The English are a private, controlled and formal people, we make Germans seem like hippies. The benefits are immense but the costs are high, we distrust virtually any claim to expertise. Thus when you speak of "being God" and making the leaves quiver
the Englishman in me recoils at such certainty. I don't doubt your sincerity but that headspace is 'outside my radius of operations'. My loss, you will say?

M: Actually I am quite the skeptic myself, but he who tastes knows, as the Sufis say. But that was Meyer Baba who moves the leaves, not me. For me that is an indication of his consciousness. I have heard it said that the Saint surrenders his will to the will of God and the master makes his will God's will, but the prophet can do both. I think he was referring to his state of consciousness being in the now and the feeling that confers, no separation between action and result.

C: Yet we agree on the need for goodness and honesty. If only as an aspiration. Good actions are an entirely different matter but always worth the extra effort.
I feel sure that compassion is a shared value too, to return to the theme of this thread.

M: I have very much enjoyed this conversation with you. You strike me as both intelligent and kind as well as someone who has done some interesting thinking. Thank you.

 

[Perknose]

Caravaggio: I'm surprised about negativity about your writing. You were probably speaking philosophically and your detractors were listening in gibberish.

M: Well, maybe sometimes and maybe not other times. I have formulated so many ideas so many times that I sort of have developed my own code which I don't think always makes sense to others. I told you that thinking wasn't such a good thing, but that is a long and complex thing to try to explain.

C: You have obviously swum in deep pools the reflections of which I have only briefly glimpsed.

M: I think I am a nobody. I don't say that out of humility or self deprecation, but rather as just a fact.

C: I did have something akin to your "Wind that shook the house" moment. I found an injured wild animal, nursed it back to what seemed like robust good health then it suddenly died in my hands. That moment derailed me for about a decade. However valuable the experience, and it was very useful for a while, it distracted me from getting on with my life where it enmeshed with others close to me.

M: When I was just a young boy, I had a friend named Steven and we went exploring. We found a swallow nest and he accidently broke it and the eggs smashed and he went crazy with grief. I love people who feel such things. I feel sad that they do, but I still love them for it. It was an accident but he felt such pain. We are helpless to change the past. Such big hearts some have and so much pain that can bring.

C: Your childhood exposure to religion and faith resonates with me too. Parents tell us what to believe because they were told in turn. It takes ages to think independently and even then we are constrained by the limits of language. Iranian friends tell me that they hate speaking English because, while it illuminates tiny patches very brightly, it has none of the expansive perspective of Farsi. Farsi speakers obviously see the world differently. You talk of Meher Baba, you obviously know that.

M: Hehe, I thought about reports that I have heard that the psychological and metaphysical ideas are much easier to express in Farci than in English. I've heard, for example, in Russian you there is one word for to speak and to say, which are different things in English when I was composing that post.

C: The other constraint on my thinking is being English by culture. The English are a private, controlled and formal people, we make Germans seem like hippies. The benefits are immense but the costs are high, we distrust virtually any claim to expertise. Thus when you speak of "being God" and making the leaves quiver
the Englishman in me recoils at such certainty. I don't doubt your sincerity but that headspace is 'outside my radius of operations'. My loss, you will say?

M: Actually I am quite the skeptic myself, but he who tastes knows, as the Sufis say. But that was Meyer Baba who moves the leaves, not me. For me that is an indication of his consciousness. I have heard it said that the Saint surrenders his will to the will of God and the master makes his will God's will, but the prophet can do both. I think he was referring to his state of consciousness being in the now and the feeling that confers, no separation between action and result.

C: Yet we agree on the need for goodness and honesty. If only as an aspiration. Good actions are an entirely different matter but always worth the extra effort.
I feel sure that compassion is a shared value too, to return to the theme of this thread.

M: I have very much enjoyed this conversation with you. You strike me as both intelligent and kind as well as someone who has done some interesting thinking. Thank you.

Conversations like this are what I hoped for when we established this forum.

By the numbers, participation here may pale vis a vis P&N or OT, but there are no crowds on Mt. Olympus because the path is steep and little traveled by those more concerned with their next twinkie.

 

[Caravaggio]

M: I think I am a nobody. I don't say that out of humility or self deprecation, but rather as just a fact.
...
M: I have very much enjoyed this conversation with you. You strike me as both intelligent and kind as well as someone who has done some interesting thinking. Thank you.

Firstly, many thanks for your kind words. I have enjoyed our discussion too.

I don't think of you as a "nobody" but it would be churlish of me to try to dissuade you. Perhaps you think we all are? In that sense, maybe....

It seems appropriate that we should be reflective at this time of year, a time when faith was once 'compulsory' has been replaced in much of the world by the worship of aluminium-wrapped chocolate eggs and rabbits. We have replaced too much guilt with too much vulgarity. Not much of a deal. There must be a better way...

If you are still in touch with your childhood friend Steven, please send him my best wishes. I truly know what he felt that day.

Oh, and 'Perknose', thanks to you, too.

 

[dank69]

Conversations like this are what I hoped for when we established this forum.

By the numbers, participation here may pale vis a vis P&N or OT, but there are no crowds on Mt. Olympus because the path is steep and little traveled by those more concerned with their next twinkie.

The unfortunate thing is that Moonbeam has been posting these treasures for ages but in P&N it is just viewed by most as trolling. Such a shame. It's okay though, those of us that are interested can still see the value.

 

[sm625]

In the food scenario, it really depends on your potential food sources.

If our group's only means of acquiring food is hunting, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards those with the most hunting skills.

If our group's only means of acquiring food is scavenging, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards those who can run fastest.

If our group's only means of acquiring food was prostitution, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards the best looking woman.

In some cases I would starve moreso than some others around me. In other cases I would have to watch others starve more than myself.

 

[moonbogg]

In the food scenario, it really depends on your potential food sources.

If our group's only means of acquiring food is hunting, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards those with the most hunting skills.

If our group's only means of acquiring food is scavenging, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards those who can run fastest.

If our group's only means of acquiring food was prostitution, then I would agree with prioritizing the remaining calories towards the best looking woman.

In some cases I would starve moreso than some others around me. In other cases I would have to watch others starve more than myself.

Survival of the fittest. It makes sense. I get the feeling that most of us are liars. We don't do it on purpose though, and I said most, not all. Its just that we aren't aware of the contingencies upon which our love and compassion hinges.
Imagine telling your family members, "I love you, but only so long as you do this or that". That doesn't sound like love, but then again, nothing sounds like love to me anyways. Love is more of an action because its all too easy to simply say the words and for them to be empty.
In today's world, we hold open the door for people as we enter the supermarket, but in a world of crisis we might trample those same people to get the last food on the shelves before they can. Maybe you would be so loving as to starve for them and let them eat instead of yourself, but what if you have kids at home? Its conceivable to me that I could starve so that others might live, but could I let my own children starve so that others might live? The impulse to act may very well be out of my control, despite my best intentions.
Lets not forget that reciprocation plays a part here. What I mean to say is, would I sacrifice myself or my children for a group of people that would have no issue watching me and my family starve to save their own skin? During the supermarket scenario, if I saw people shoving me out of the way in a panic, seeing they have no concern at all for my children, would I still be tempted to starve for their sake? Could I have love and compassion even when others have none for me, or even worse, if they have the opposite toward me?
I think if a person is truly loving and compassionate, they are so unconditionally. They are so for the sake of being so, and that is reason enough. Even if treated poorly or faced with people who hate them, they will still be compassionate and loving toward them, not because those people deserve it, but because this person is loving and compassionate. To be otherwise would be expecting them to be something that they aren't.

 

[Caravaggio]

Survival of the fittest. It makes sense. I get the feeling that most of us are liars. We don't do it on purpose though, and I said most, not all. Its just that we aren't aware of the contingencies upon which our love and compassion hinges.
Imagine telling your family members, "I love you, but only so long as you do this or that". That doesn't sound like love, but then again, nothing sounds like love to me anyways. Love is more of an action because its all too easy to simply say the words and for them to be empty.

You make some good points there.
Let's look at 'love' first.
The strongest variety is said to be maternal love for offspring. It is touching to see a mare care for her new born foal. A bitch licking her pups, a tired Mum exhausted but proud, feeding her baby.
But I have seen this love wither and die in the case of some ( not all) mothers of profoundly autistic children. It is not always absolute, more conditional, as you say. The nature of autism sadly breaks the feedback loop of mothering. In extreme cases the child avoids eye-contact, protests when touched or soothed. This pattern will sometimes reduce the mother to desperate instrumental behaviour in return. Love cannot thrive here, other than as a most abstruse rarefied concept. Love has to have some reciprocity in the real world.

Let's take another, even more horrible example. Cannibalism.
I'm guessing that the well adjusted and kind users of these boards could never imagine being reduced to eating another human. But this has happened widely in the cases of complete famine. There is a pattern, a grim continuum, of descent into the unimaginable. (Data here comes from, Cormac O'Garda, Joe Lee, John Post, Sorokin, Gareth Jones, wiki and other sources)
The hungry first try to move to new sources of food.
If they are prevented from moving and the famine continues, they start to kill and eat their livestock.
They then eat their seed grains for the next planting (making further famine inevitable)
Next, their pets are killed and eaten.
Then the bodies of those who have died from hunger (Trupoedstvo, in Russian)
This soon morphs into murdering strangers for food (Lyodoedstvo, in Russian)
If hunger persists we see elderly relatives killed for food.
The bottom of this pit is the killing of one's own children for food. This is always furtive (obviously) but has been recorded several times. Russian famines of 1921, 1930-1933, the Moldovan famine of 1946/7 (see Burtianski, Askold Krushelnicky)
Famine, if it persists leads to a predictable pattern of "psychic decomposition" (Lee).
But not all succumb to this collapse of integrity. Even at this extreme, many simply prefer to die rather than descend so far.

Compassion can be suppressed to the point where it becomes vestigial.

 

[shortylickens]

For me it is.
I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt themselves or ruin their lives.
This includes drug users and folks who repeatedly make horrible life decisions.
I normally dont go out of my way to help them, unless they are family.

 

[Vdubchaos]

If there is no food in this world, kill me first. I would rather die than see what people will be doing to each other.

Everything has it's limits. When shit hits the fan and things go south is when it's time to walk. During those times is when you find out the TRUE compassion of people around you.

 

[Vdubchaos]

For me it is.
I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt themselves or ruin their lives.
This includes drug users and folks who repeatedly make horrible life decisions.
I normally dont go out of my way to help them, unless they are family.

Even if they are family.....I don't help them. You can't help people that can't help themselves.