Is chiropractic a scam?

[z0mb13]

pay attention to your seating posture at work..

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: iliopsoas

Originally posted by: midnightrat
Not sure if you realise that is all year round. No summer breaks for 3 years! And if you count the number of semesters that 5 academic years at 2 semesters a year.

Most med students go to school year round too. But they complete their UNDERGRADUATE medical education in 4 years...and they still don't know much.

On another note, ask your local chiropractor regarding spinal artery dissection associated with spinal manipulation and they'll probably tell you that it's just sheer bad luck and a random event. LOL

Your pejorative responses are part of the reason people seek chiropractic care; they don't want someone to condescend their legitimate problems. There's a large number of people who perceive doctors in a negative light, and it's largely due to their "silence the symptom", "We are omniscient and anything tangential to our ideals is quackery" nonsense that makes it so. So far I've seen a lot of people say they've benefited greatly from chiropractic care, and the only thing you offer is arrogance and rebukes.

Did you expect anything less? MD's think they are the great sages. They know absolutely everything there is to know about the human body. If they didn?t study it in school then it?s automatically a "New Age" hippie folk tale. It doesn?t even warrant even the slightest bit of consideration that maybe there is a better way to help people with certain issues. Here pop this pill, oh you feel stoned? but does your back hurt? It doesnt? excellent! here is a years supply of Vicoden.

Iliopsoas is a prime example of an elitist who would put his nose in the air because a different approach besides the one he just spent 8 years studying might be better.

 

[MidasKnight]

Originally posted by: dquan97
My wife and I have lower back pains occassionally from playing sports and working. We went in for X-rays last week and found that our back deviates from the "normal" curvature of the spine. Is it worth going 3days/week for a whole year, at the cost of $4K total for both? What are your experiences?

You don't need a 3 day a week regiment.

I go for adjustments when it pinches a nerve. Maybey 1 time a year. But I mostly am able to adjust my lower back and neck my self.

 

[cronos]

go to your family practicioner and ask to be referred to a physical therapist. your insurance might even cover it.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Thera
Scientific American Frontiers (w/ Alan Alda) did a show on alternative healing. They looked at severel methods, including chiropracty and concluded it was fake. I think even acupuncture rated higher in "success rate", at least it triggered the body's natural pain relief process.

I'd stay away... unless you're into that thing.

Well, if Hawkeye says so... :roll:


Sorry to single out your post, Thera... But this is just another example of someone with ZERO experience on the subject at hand, giving advice as if they were an expert.

No problem... Alan Alda is only the narrator, I just used his reference so people might recognize the show. The show is called "Scientific American Frontiers".

I was surprised by the inclusion of Chiropractic(y?) also. I always thought it was perfectly legit, but I never had any contact with the field so I never really knew. Seeing a bit of the history behind it and what medical doctors thought of the procedures made me think otherwise. It may still be perfectly viable.. I'll just approach it with a cautious eye, as anyone should with any health procedure.

 

[midnightrat]

Originally posted by: dquan97
Good discussion here so far. Here's a twist: since I'm leaving in a couple months for AF Basic, I can sign up my wife (who's in a worse condition than me) for 1yr, evaluate her progress while away, then see if the chiro works for her.

Haha, that's great, use her as the lab rat

One of the most common things my patients told me was they wish they had tried Chiropractic sooner. You'd be suprised what a good chiro can do in a couple of months, and if your in decent shape, sounds like you are since you and your wife are into sports, you'll respond even better.

If I were you, I wouldn't sign anything. It's your body, not a cell phone plan. If you're dead set on seeing this chiro, tell him straight up that you're not signing anything. What's he going to say? That he can't treat you then? Yeah that's a pretty big sign that you shouldn't be going to him. And if you still have an open mind and want to try chiropractic treatment dispite all the slams against chiropractors in this thread, ask your friends, or co-workers for one's they have been to and liked.

Actually there's a test program where some military bases have chiropractors on staff. You might want to go and ask about that.

Anyway good luck with your decision.

Just checked your profile and it says you're in Ca. Something you could also try is the Southern California University of Health's clinic. If it's anything like my school's you'll be treated by a student and it'll take like 2-3 hours but it's usually pretty cheap and they'll take really good care of you. Check it out if it's not too far, just keep in mind that it's a teaching clinic.

 

[Hammer]

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: MAME

...it's just like a massage

:thumbsup:
but the massager dude thinks they are a doctor

*confirmed*

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Chiropractic affects more than bones and muscles, because of all the nerves it also affects much of the organs in your body and getting adjusted can even fix constipation or your ability to process toxins out of your body.

That's the problem. Chiropractors make these claims but have no scientific evidence to back it up. It's easy to say that because nerves are everywhere, that the nervous system is affected by chiropractic manipulation, which will in turn affect every other organ system. It's a nice theory. But where is the scientific proof? What's the mechanism?

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Whisper
I think what turns most people (including many doctors) away is the small amount of schooling that they have to go through to be chiropractors. Most people I've talked to seem to say that they can do much more harm than good. However, I've never been to one, so I don't know first-hand.

Then again, I don't think I'll ever actually try going to one, either.

What? My chiropractor had to go through 7 years of school to do what he does, and still continues his education at conferences.

3 years of undergrad and 4 years of chiropractic? or some similar combo?

a physician usually does 4 years undergrad, 4 years of med school, and AT LEAST 3 years of residency to become board certified.

 

[prvteye2003]

I started seeing one because I was having really bad pains in my legs and feet along with bad headaches. Guess what, no more pains or headaches. I say they work.

 

[skace]

This may be off base, but if you were faced with going to a chiropractor for an issue wouldn't you first try yoga / back exercises? I'd analyze my own life first and do all that I think I can before going to someone like a chiropractor. Isn't all the cracking and realigning something that would happen normally if you stretched out all your muscles on a regular basis? Not sure... asking.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Thera
Scientific American Frontiers (w/ Alan Alda) did a show on alternative healing. They looked at severel methods, including chiropracty and concluded it was fake. I think even acupuncture rated higher in "success rate", at least it triggered the body's natural pain relief process.

I'd stay away... unless you're into that thing.

Well, if Hawkeye says so... :roll:


Sorry to single out your post, Thera... But this is just another example of someone with ZERO experience on the subject at hand, giving advice as if they were an expert.

No problem... Alan Alda is only the narrator, I just used his reference so people might recognize the show. The show is called "Scientific American Frontiers".

I was surprised by the inclusion of Chiropractic(y?) also. I always thought it was perfectly legit, but I never had any contact with the field so I never really knew. Seeing a bit of the history behind it and what medical doctors thought of the procedures made me think otherwise. It may still be perfectly viable.. I'll just approach it with a cautious eye, as anyone should with any health procedure.

• Regarding Capt. Pierce: Yeah, I know... I was just being ornery.
• The fact that the "medical doctor" community isn't very fond of Chiropracty isn't surprising. (Not too much different than the vegan community "proving" that Atkins is evil.) The fact that they write off my significantly reduced back pain as "random" or "placebo effect" just shows the ego of said community. Before you trust the conclusion of a study, one of the key components to know is who is taking part and their agenda. If you are motivated enough, you can basically set up any study to prove/disprove anything you want.

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: iliopsoas

Originally posted by: midnightrat
Not sure if you realise that is all year round. No summer breaks for 3 years! And if you count the number of semesters that 5 academic years at 2 semesters a year.

Most med students go to school year round too. But they complete their UNDERGRADUATE medical education in 4 years...and they still don't know much.

On another note, ask your local chiropractor regarding spinal artery dissection associated with spinal manipulation and they'll probably tell you that it's just sheer bad luck and a random event. LOL

Your pejorative responses are part of the reason people seek chiropractic care; they don't want someone to condescend their legitimate problems. There's a large number of people who perceive doctors in a negative light, and it's largely due to their "silence the symptom", "We are omniscient and anything tangential to our ideals is quackery" nonsense that makes it so. So far I've seen a lot of people say they've benefited greatly from chiropractic care, and the only thing you offer is arrogance and rebukes.

I don't deny that patients have legitimate problems. If I did, I never would have gone into medicine. And I don't have a condescending attitudes with patients. When I worked with patients, I always try to explain to them the risks and benefits. They should have a fairly good understanding of what they are getting into.

However, I do have a condescending attitude towards chiropractic. (Isn't it obvious? LOL) And the reason is that chiropractic isn't based on scientific evidence. Show me some randomised control trials (or similar strong evidence) that chiropractic manipulations work and I will refer all my patients with musculoskeletal pain/injuries.

No, I do not think less of alternative medicine. Accupuncture works. There is growing evidence of that. And I've suggested accupuncture to patients as well. There is actually a study that shows that Tiger Balm works to sooth aches and pain. Herbal medicine works but we always urge caution because of other unknown ingredients, dosage or possible interactions with prescription drugs. Massage therapy is wonderful. As for physical therapy, I consider that an integral part of medicine.

 

[43st]

The Atkins link is good. It's another thing that for sure works and it's something that health professionals hate. I personally think we need to see someone on Atkins for a good 30+ years to draw any conclusions. If a person could even live that long on that diet.

 

[OutHouse]

Iliopsoas: Well atleast you like Massage Therapy. Ill be a graduating from 1000 hour program in Dec.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Thera
The Atkins link is good. It's another thing that for sure works and it's something that health professionals hate. I personally think we need to see someone on Atkins for a good 30+ years to draw any conclusions. If a person could even live that long on that diet.

If you understood the diet, you would realize that the majority of those 30 years would consist of eating regular healthy meals, since at some point in the diet you must build back up to your optimal ammount of carbs. Whole nother thread though...

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: Citrix
Iliopsoas: Well atleast you like Massage Therapy. Ill be a graduating from 1000 hour program in Dec.

I like it so much, I wish I can take a few classes just to learn for my own personal use.

 

[Koing]

I have no experience with Chiro's but I have had experience with a Physiotherapist. I had treatment twice a week for 3 weeks then that dropped to 1x a week for 4 weeks. I got exercises and stuff to do at home. Fixed my traped nerve.

Worked and i am fine. The Dr recommended me to the Physiotherapist. I get the imppression that the Physiotherapist in England is similar to a Physical Therapist in the states right?

Koing

(btw I live in England)

 

[MAME]

Originally posted by: iliopsoas

Originally posted by: Citrix
The Parker College study reported that on average, chiropractic college involves 372 more classroom hours than medical school. Chiropractic students also have more hours of training in anatomy, physiology, diagnosis, and orthopedics (the musculoskeletal system). It should be apparent from looking at the data below that in general, the chiropractic student has a more extensive classroom education and practical training in these areas, particularly in diagnosis, than the medical student.

Minimum Required Hours
Chiropractic College/Medical College

456.........Anatomy/Embryology............215

243................Physiology.....................174

296................Pathology.......................507

161................Chemistry.......................100

145................Microbiology...................145

408................Diagnosis.......................113

149................Neurology.......................171

271.................X-Ray.............................13

56.............Psychology/Psychiatry.........323

66.............Obstetrics & Gynecology......284

168.................Orthopedics.......................2

2,419......Total Hours for Degree.......2,047

I'll go down the list and discuss by line item.

During medical school, most of the classroom teaching occurs during the Basic Science portion, which is the first 2 years of medical school.

Anatomy/embryology. We spend countless hours in the gross anatomy lab during the day, at night and on weekends. Do your statistics account for these hours?

Physiology. Lots of classroom hours during the first 2 years. Lots more during clinical rotations during the 3rd and 4th years. I doubt that chiropractic students continue to study physiology during their rotations. I'd be willing take an MD's understanding of physiology over a chiropractor any day.

Pathology. I'm not surprised there.

Chemistry. While true that there isn't a strong emphasis on chemistry in medical school with the exception of biochemistry, most pre-meds have taken quite a few chemistry classes already. These usually include the MINIMUM of general chemistry (1 yr), organic chemistry (1 yr) in addition to General biochemistry and Biochemistry of Disease.

Microbiology. LOL NO way in hell chiropractors study as much microbiology as MDs. Med students study microbiology during the first 2 years of med school and then refine it even more during the 3rd and 4th years.

Diagnosis. Dunno what sort of diagnosis you're talking about. Even as a diagnostic radiology resident, I am confident my physical diagnostic skills are still better than a chiropractors.

Neurology. Aside from the usual basic science, most medical schools require 2 additional months of clinical training during the core 3rd year clerkship.

X-ray. You're right. Med students get very little exposure to radiology unless they sign up for it as an elective. However, diagnostic radiology residency requires an ADDITIONAL 5 years of training MINIMUM. Most physicians recognize their limited knowledge of radiology and defer interpretation of radiographic studies to diagnostic radiologists. Can't say the same for chiropractors as some of them are trying to interpret xrays with their limited training.

Psychology/Phsychiatry. Again, similar to Neurology above.

OB/Gyn. Again, similar to Neurology above.

Orthopedics. 2 hours? Your statistics are whacked. Although there is no emphasis on orthopedics, we definitely spend more than 2 hours in the classroom. Then we have the option of an elective in orthopedics as well.


So yes, medical students study these topics during their first 2 years of CLASSROOM work. But they study even more during the 3rd and 4th years in the hospital, which your statistics fail to account.

owned

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Thera
The Atkins link is good. It's another thing that for sure works and it's something that health professionals hate. I personally think we need to see someone on Atkins for a good 30+ years to draw any conclusions. If a person could even live that long on that diet.

If you understood the diet, you would realize that the majority of those 30 years would consist of eating regular healthy meals, since at some point in the diet you must build back up to your optimal ammount of carbs. Whole nother thread though...

Good point... so to continue the relationship. The majority of your medical professional visits should be to a physical therapist and not a chiropractor.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Eli
Any of you guys calling them a scam.. have you ever been to one?

Obviously not.

However, it is true that you should find a good one.

Yes, I have & they're a scam, but they're generally nice folks & have a holistic approach to health care.

Yep....have been to one and they are a scam. Said they could do nothing for the pain and then asked to setup appointments for 3 times a week. WTF??

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Eli
Any of you guys calling them a scam.. have you ever been to one?

Obviously not.

However, it is true that you should find a good one.

Yes, I have & they're a scam, but they're generally nice folks & have a holistic approach to health care.

Yep....have been to one and they are a scam. Said they could do nothing for the pain and then asked to setup appointments for 3 times a week. WTF??

wanting instant gratification? WTF????

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: iliopsoas

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Chiropractic affects more than bones and muscles, because of all the nerves it also affects much of the organs in your body and getting adjusted can even fix constipation or your ability to process toxins out of your body.

That's the problem. Chiropractors make these claims but have no scientific evidence to back it up. It's easy to say that because nerves are everywhere, that the nervous system is affected by chiropractic manipulation, which will in turn affect every other organ system. It's a nice theory. But where is the scientific proof? What's the mechanism?

There are few supporting scientific studies but they're starting to come up with them.

APPLIED KINESIOLOGY PROCEDURES DEMONSTRATED IN LABORATORY STUDY

 

[badmouse]

I fell off a trampline in jr high school and I've been thru a lot of stuff for back pain: operations, drugs, acupuncture, chiro, yoga, physical therapy, exercise, magnetism, you name it, I've been there.

The operations caused more problems than the initial back injuries. That's not my opinion, that's the opinions of more doctors who wanted to do (& did do) more operations to fix the earlier ones. Every new doctor I see, even now 30 years later, wants to operate again - and having been thru the experience enough, I know what to ask - and basically, they aren't going to fix anything, they're going to "try." The type of surgery being suggested has horrible statistics, and a surprisingly large percentage of people die or become paralyzed as result of that type of surgery. The bad side effects and potential complications outweigh the POSSIBLE benefits, so I won't do it until I'm convinced something will help.

By contrast, I've been to many chiropracters thru the years, and even the bad ones DIDN'T HURT ANYHTHING or make it worse. And, a couple of them have REALLY HELPED (unlike ANY of the allopathic physicians).

Physical therapy is painful and for me, has never resulted in any improvement.

Yoga was the best thing for me, until I discovered good chiropractic. The chiropractic treatment has enabled me to expand and improve my yoga.

Drugs dull the pain - vicodin, codeine, etc. Drugs have side effects. If drugs help the back by giving you a chance to rest, then I can rest perfectly well without drugs. Muscle relaxants are temporary and don't cure anything.

Acupuncture gave me an infection. The acupuncturist apologized and treated/cured the infection, gratis, besides being very concerned and keeping in touch to make sure I was okay. I've NEVER had an allopathic physician deal with their complications this responsibly. I'm sure there are doctors who do, but I've never had any.

Osteopathy, magnetism, upside down stretching, and other things I can't remember offhand didn't work.

Alcohol is relaxing and is long-term, the most effective drug I've found w/the fewest side effects.

 

[SoylentGreen]

Nothing like hearing your whole spine crack.

I think no to scam.