Here's the basic deal with Intel overclocking. Most all of the current Intels of whatever speed, as long as the are fcpga chips, will do at least 850. The cC0 latest steppings will do 933 often. Some of course will do a ghz. But not more than about half, according to ed over at overclockers.com
It doesn't make much difference what speed intel you buy as to how fast it will theoretically overclock to. It's the luck fo the draw. Except of course you have a guarantee that it will run at whatever its marked at. What makes much more difference is that you have the lastest stepping, which is cC0. Stepping is basically a manufacturing run. (They tweak to improve their yields/performance between steppings, as they accumate manufacturing experience.)
The only way of overclocking Intels is by increading the speed at which the memory runs, the fsb -- because all Intel CPU's have locked multipliers (unlike TBirds). The easiest and most stable way to do this, which works on virtually all fcpga motherboards, is to buy a chip sold as a 100mhz chip, and run it at 133, if you are talking about PIII's ,or buy a Celeron fcpga rated at 66, and run it at 100 fsb.
The classic move then is to buy SLOWER marked intels, because they are not only cheaper, they are also more of a sure thing to work without problems when you do the one big jump overclock from 100 to 133, or 66 to 100.
The classic PIII's to get for this are the 600E (NOT EB), the 650, or the 700. The classic celerons are the 533 fcpga, 566 or the 600. THe lower speeds are safer, since it is virtually certain they will run when increased in speed by 1.333x by running them at 133 fsb. The higher speeds have a higher potential top overclock, since you won't have to push the fsb as much over 133 for PIII's, or 100 for Celerons, to get the same ultimate overclock chip speed.
Note in the PIII's you DON't want the chips which are sold as 133mhz chips, e.g the 600EB, the the 667 or the 733 (or anything higher). All of the lower speed Celerons are sold as 66mhz chips, but there avoid the 500 and the 533 fpga -- cause they are build on an older manufacturing process and won't overclock worth squat, usually. Mastering these little bits of complexity is a large part of the basic overclocking art.
Once you have it running at the big jump in fsb, then you can try to increase the fsb to a little more than 100, if it is a Celeron, or a little more than 133, if it is a PIII -- so long as your motherboard supports small increment increases in the fsb. I.e., so long as it supports overclocking. Another trick is to increase the core voltage a bit going to your processor, if your mobo bios supports that. We're talking about 0.05v increments here, or less if possible. Read up on how much is too much for the particular processor. (I'm up on Athlons, not Intels at the moment.) You start to need bigger and better heatsinks/fans as you increase the voltage and your chip runs hotter. For basic cost effective overclocking don't push it too far. As soon as anything becomes at all unstable, back down a bit. There is also a tendency sometimes for a chip to run a little faster once it has been "burned in" at a close but a bit lower speed. If you aren't in it for the sport, you won't want to push it too far. You'll care more about stability.
That is overclocking of Intels in a nutshell.
Good luck.
It doesn't make much difference what speed intel you buy as to how fast it will theoretically overclock to. It's the luck fo the draw. Except of course you have a guarantee that it will run at whatever its marked at. What makes much more difference is that you have the lastest stepping, which is cC0. Stepping is basically a manufacturing run. (They tweak to improve their yields/performance between steppings, as they accumate manufacturing experience.)
The only way of overclocking Intels is by increading the speed at which the memory runs, the fsb -- because all Intel CPU's have locked multipliers (unlike TBirds). The easiest and most stable way to do this, which works on virtually all fcpga motherboards, is to buy a chip sold as a 100mhz chip, and run it at 133, if you are talking about PIII's ,or buy a Celeron fcpga rated at 66, and run it at 100 fsb.
The classic move then is to buy SLOWER marked intels, because they are not only cheaper, they are also more of a sure thing to work without problems when you do the one big jump overclock from 100 to 133, or 66 to 100.
The classic PIII's to get for this are the 600E (NOT EB), the 650, or the 700. The classic celerons are the 533 fcpga, 566 or the 600. THe lower speeds are safer, since it is virtually certain they will run when increased in speed by 1.333x by running them at 133 fsb. The higher speeds have a higher potential top overclock, since you won't have to push the fsb as much over 133 for PIII's, or 100 for Celerons, to get the same ultimate overclock chip speed.
Note in the PIII's you DON't want the chips which are sold as 133mhz chips, e.g the 600EB, the the 667 or the 733 (or anything higher). All of the lower speed Celerons are sold as 66mhz chips, but there avoid the 500 and the 533 fpga -- cause they are build on an older manufacturing process and won't overclock worth squat, usually. Mastering these little bits of complexity is a large part of the basic overclocking art.
Once you have it running at the big jump in fsb, then you can try to increase the fsb to a little more than 100, if it is a Celeron, or a little more than 133, if it is a PIII -- so long as your motherboard supports small increment increases in the fsb. I.e., so long as it supports overclocking. Another trick is to increase the core voltage a bit going to your processor, if your mobo bios supports that. We're talking about 0.05v increments here, or less if possible. Read up on how much is too much for the particular processor. (I'm up on Athlons, not Intels at the moment.) You start to need bigger and better heatsinks/fans as you increase the voltage and your chip runs hotter. For basic cost effective overclocking don't push it too far. As soon as anything becomes at all unstable, back down a bit. There is also a tendency sometimes for a chip to run a little faster once it has been "burned in" at a close but a bit lower speed. If you aren't in it for the sport, you won't want to push it too far. You'll care more about stability.
That is overclocking of Intels in a nutshell.
Good luck.
Sorry to hear you already ordered a PIII 667. I was about to suggest a Celeron 2 633 which would have probably overclocked nicely to 950. It would have run you about $75, then you could have sold your Voodoo 3 for about $50 and ordered an A-Open Geforce 2 MX from mwave.com for another $50 plus shipping and you would have had a rock solid 950 Mhz processor speed with a decent video card that will run any game at reasonable frame rate with high detail and 32 bit color at resolutions up to 1024x768. My Celeron 2 600 @ 900 outperforms my PIII 600E @ 744. and frankly my PIII 600E@744 will beat your new PIII 667 by a small bit. IMHO, the Celeron GF 2MX upgrade was the better way to go for low $.
Chuck
PS The only problem with the 133 MHZ fsb PIII chips is that they offer very little in the way of "headroom". In other words, they don't overclock at all, unless you have ram and a cpu that will be stable at fsb speeds in excess of 133. Your chances of that are very slim.
Chuck
PS The only problem with the 133 MHZ fsb PIII chips is that they offer very little in the way of "headroom". In other words, they don't overclock at all, unless you have ram and a cpu that will be stable at fsb speeds in excess of 133. Your chances of that are very slim.
If you've ordered an PIII 667 and it hasn't arrived yet, I would refuse shipment, and have it sent back.
Two reasons. First, it won't be overclockable worth squat, since it is a 133fsb part. Second, PIII prices are supposed to go down 20-40% on Monday from Intel. May take a few days after that to show up at the etailers, depending on their policies.
Instead buy a new PIII 650. That's a good choice for a beginning overclocker. If you really don't want to take any chances on overclocking working, get a 600E (NOT EB). That goes to 800 no sweat at all. The 650 will go to 867 with only a very small riks of not quite making it. If it doesn't you can back the fsb down a bit BELOW 133, and see if it will boot then. (If you mobo supports in between fsb's, that is.)
But even if your mobo doesn't support inbetween fsb's, the 650 will almost certainly work plug and play by just setting the jumpers on your mobo for a 133mhz PIII processor. It's a nice sweet easy no sweat overclock. It's free money. And it will be cheaper by the middle of next week. This is rock solid advice. Hope you take it.
Two reasons. First, it won't be overclockable worth squat, since it is a 133fsb part. Second, PIII prices are supposed to go down 20-40% on Monday from Intel. May take a few days after that to show up at the etailers, depending on their policies.
Instead buy a new PIII 650. That's a good choice for a beginning overclocker. If you really don't want to take any chances on overclocking working, get a 600E (NOT EB). That goes to 800 no sweat at all. The 650 will go to 867 with only a very small riks of not quite making it. If it doesn't you can back the fsb down a bit BELOW 133, and see if it will boot then. (If you mobo supports in between fsb's, that is.)
But even if your mobo doesn't support inbetween fsb's, the 650 will almost certainly work plug and play by just setting the jumpers on your mobo for a 133mhz PIII processor. It's a nice sweet easy no sweat overclock. It's free money. And it will be cheaper by the middle of next week. This is rock solid advice. Hope you take it.
Now I've got a question for you all gamers.
I recently got a celeron 500 system mega cheap with a good upgradeable case for some quasi step kids I'm friendly with (the kids of my girl friend who recently died at a horribly young age -- they live with their grandmother). It's a Via Apollo Pro (not A) chipset. I also got a Geforce2 MX with video out for the computer.
The DFI mobo does support 100 and 133 fsb's, with appropriate voltages, by a jumper. I think, but am not sure, that there are also 1mhz increment changes to the fsb in the bios for in between. (Manual alludes to that, but makes a real small deal of it, basically saying experts only. Perhaps voltage adjustment too.) Video card comes in Monday, late, which is why I don't know.
Now the trouble is I learned that I can't overclock the 500mhz pgca celeron worth squat.
My question is, for 3D games on a 15" monitor (though it'll do 1024x768), will there be a BIG difference if I upgrade the cpu? Will a PIII 650@867 be a huge difference up from a Celeron2 566@850? (It's $125 vs 61 before monday reveals the etailer impact of the Intel price cuts.) Will either make that much difference in games using a GF2 MX, mostly at 800x600, or is the 500 celery fine for now with that video card?
I know that the PIII is about 10-15% faster than the Celery2 clock for clock. What I'm really asking is with a GF2 MX, will the net effect in games probably played mostly at 800x600x32 make a whole lot of difference?
Hard core gamer input needed!!!
I recently got a celeron 500 system mega cheap with a good upgradeable case for some quasi step kids I'm friendly with (the kids of my girl friend who recently died at a horribly young age -- they live with their grandmother). It's a Via Apollo Pro (not A) chipset. I also got a Geforce2 MX with video out for the computer.
The DFI mobo does support 100 and 133 fsb's, with appropriate voltages, by a jumper. I think, but am not sure, that there are also 1mhz increment changes to the fsb in the bios for in between. (Manual alludes to that, but makes a real small deal of it, basically saying experts only. Perhaps voltage adjustment too.) Video card comes in Monday, late, which is why I don't know.
Now the trouble is I learned that I can't overclock the 500mhz pgca celeron worth squat.
My question is, for 3D games on a 15" monitor (though it'll do 1024x768), will there be a BIG difference if I upgrade the cpu? Will a PIII 650@867 be a huge difference up from a Celeron2 566@850? (It's $125 vs 61 before monday reveals the etailer impact of the Intel price cuts.) Will either make that much difference in games using a GF2 MX, mostly at 800x600, or is the 500 celery fine for now with that video card?
I know that the PIII is about 10-15% faster than the Celery2 clock for clock. What I'm really asking is with a GF2 MX, will the net effect in games probably played mostly at 800x600x32 make a whole lot of difference?
Hard core gamer input needed!!!
The guy probably does not want to o/c. The p3 667 he bought will be perfectly fine for games. My old p3 450 katmai is still doing good.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,165
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dougjnn, Even with my Celeron at 800, I find at 800x600x16 the frame rate a little on the slow side with my Voodoo 3. However, as I increase the speed, the frame rates continue to increase, although at 960 it's only slightly better than 920. I think the sweet spot for the Voodoo 3 (overclocked to 180) is with my CPU at 920 MHz, with UT and QIII at medium quality settings. Performance absolutely sucks at 533 MHz though.
At super high quality settings at 800x600, the extra CPU speed of 920 over 800 doesn't help me as much though since the card becomes the bottleneck.
I'd imagine at that resolution with some of the lower texture settings, a Geforce 2 MX can easily make use of the faster CPU speed (although I haven't tested it myself), since a Geforce 2 MX is MUCH faster than a Voodoo 3.
However, that is all with 16 bit. 32-bit is much more stressful on the card. Check the reviews though - even at 800x600x32 I think the faster CPU would still be a significant improvement though over a Celly 500, especially with the Celly running on a 66 MHz bus.
It also depends on the game and how hardcore those kids are for gaming. I'm a speed phreak - quality is definitely secondary. Remember a Celly 500 Geforce 2 MX is faster than 95% of the computers in existence, so maybe they'll be perfectly happy with the performance. My nephew would kill for that kind of speed.
At super high quality settings at 800x600, the extra CPU speed of 920 over 800 doesn't help me as much though since the card becomes the bottleneck.
I'd imagine at that resolution with some of the lower texture settings, a Geforce 2 MX can easily make use of the faster CPU speed (although I haven't tested it myself), since a Geforce 2 MX is MUCH faster than a Voodoo 3.
However, that is all with 16 bit. 32-bit is much more stressful on the card. Check the reviews though - even at 800x600x32 I think the faster CPU would still be a significant improvement though over a Celly 500, especially with the Celly running on a 66 MHz bus.
It also depends on the game and how hardcore those kids are for gaming. I'm a speed phreak - quality is definitely secondary. Remember a Celly 500 Geforce 2 MX is faster than 95% of the computers in existence, so maybe they'll be perfectly happy with the performance. My nephew would kill for that kind of speed.
What what? I dont understand, how did this guy read all these replys and then go out a buy a P!!! ? this guy dont know how to take some advice bah!!
Thanks Eug.
I think maybe what I'll do is let it ride for now. Then in a bit, maybe waiting for the March 4 intel scheduled price drop, I'll get a PIII 650 and run it at 866 @133fsb.
That sort of maximizes the impact, I think. They'll love what they they're getting now, I think. They can't play games at all on their old POS PC now. THey use Playstation mostly.
Then in a couple of months when they are getting thirsty for a boost, and the PIII's come down again, I'll pick up a 650 for what a Celly2 566 would cost now, almost. Maybe.
(I'm not that worried about the $20 or less price diff between mid week and mid march. I just suspect it will be a bigger emotional boost for the kids to do it this way. As long as the Celly 500 w/ GF2 MX isn't going to totally suck and be unplayable with games like q3d, half life, etc, in lower resolutions.)
I think maybe what I'll do is let it ride for now. Then in a bit, maybe waiting for the March 4 intel scheduled price drop, I'll get a PIII 650 and run it at 866 @133fsb.
That sort of maximizes the impact, I think. They'll love what they they're getting now, I think. They can't play games at all on their old POS PC now. THey use Playstation mostly.
Then in a couple of months when they are getting thirsty for a boost, and the PIII's come down again, I'll pick up a 650 for what a Celly2 566 would cost now, almost. Maybe.
(I'm not that worried about the $20 or less price diff between mid week and mid march. I just suspect it will be a bigger emotional boost for the kids to do it this way. As long as the Celly 500 w/ GF2 MX isn't going to totally suck and be unplayable with games like q3d, half life, etc, in lower resolutions.)
Dark --
Yeah, but popping a PIII 650 into a Via Appollo Pro mobo designed to be able to run 133fsb coppermines, by just moving a jumper and nothing else, is not exactly your high stress, high risk overclocking.
In my opinion anyone would have to be an absolute idiot to not at least try it, after they have gotten the benefit of the learning on this board.
I hope he'll refuse delivery of that 667 and order a cheaper 650 mid week instead. This move is so obvious that it isn't even a judgement call. One way is smart and the other is dumb as dirt.
Seems to me.
Yeah, but popping a PIII 650 into a Via Appollo Pro mobo designed to be able to run 133fsb coppermines, by just moving a jumper and nothing else, is not exactly your high stress, high risk overclocking.
In my opinion anyone would have to be an absolute idiot to not at least try it, after they have gotten the benefit of the learning on this board.
I hope he'll refuse delivery of that 667 and order a cheaper 650 mid week instead. This move is so obvious that it isn't even a judgement call. One way is smart and the other is dumb as dirt.
Seems to me.
well, obviously i'm unexperienced, thats why i asked the question in the first place. and the reason why i ordered a P3-667 is because after i read about 10 or so replies i couldnt make out what to get, since i deffinately didnt want the duron. i dont realy plan on overclockin the thing plus i really have no idea how anyway (my P3-550 before that was fine for me so 667 should be a lil better). thank u very much for all of your advices, but i'm pretty sure that p3-667 will be fine. why u guys dont like it???? just because its not overclockable or is there some other reasoning? is it possible to overclock it at all? eitherway, i wish i had a chance to read the last 10 replies before i ordered, but its a lil too late now cuz i dont feel like messing with refusing the order. i think i'll be fine.......right??
PCVas --
Please re-read my posts to you. I think they are pretty clear on how to overclock, and why a 650 is vastly better than a 667.
Also, you have to understand. There are basically two types of overclocking. One type involves high end heat sinks and fans, or maybe even exotic stuff like water cooling, and hours and hours of tweaking and trying and boasting about results, or commiserting about problems. That's overclocking as a sort of geekish sport. That I know you don't want to do.
The other sort of overclocking is simply getting a huge increase in perfomance for your dollar. It's more like smart discount shopping than it is computer fiddling. What you may not realize is that the PIII 650 chip and the PIII 866 chip (to pick one example) ARE PRECISELY THE SAME CHIP. The only thing different is how they are labeled, and a little setting in the chip which tells an automatically adjusting motherboard what speed to run the memory/fsb at.
If you simply change a jumper on your motherboard YOU ARE VIRTUALLY CERTAIN to be able to turn your 650 PIII into a 867 PIII for zero more dollars. Look up the difference in price those two chips sell at. That's $70 for free. I thought you were trying to save money.
Look, even if you don't want to overclock now, refuse delivery on the PIII 677 chip. Send it back. Don't open the box. Have them send you a PIII 650. Just live with it for a while until you realize you do want to try the jumper trick. THe difference between the 667 and the 650 is absolutely undetectible in any real world application -- until you overclock the 650 up to 866. THAT is noticeable, big time.
Trust me on this. OK?
(It's frustrating to give such long and good advice, and have it not be heard. )
BTW, I agree the guys telling you to get a duron were utterly WHACK. You already have a good working Celeron II /PIII motherboard, and you are tying to do the most cost effective upgrade. Like replacing the mobo to get a maybe 10-20% speed advantage out of a Duron per $ makes sense, when you need to spend $120 delivered, AT LEAST for a decent duron mobo. Dumb.
Please re-read my posts to you. I think they are pretty clear on how to overclock, and why a 650 is vastly better than a 667.
Also, you have to understand. There are basically two types of overclocking. One type involves high end heat sinks and fans, or maybe even exotic stuff like water cooling, and hours and hours of tweaking and trying and boasting about results, or commiserting about problems. That's overclocking as a sort of geekish sport. That I know you don't want to do.
The other sort of overclocking is simply getting a huge increase in perfomance for your dollar. It's more like smart discount shopping than it is computer fiddling. What you may not realize is that the PIII 650 chip and the PIII 866 chip (to pick one example) ARE PRECISELY THE SAME CHIP. The only thing different is how they are labeled, and a little setting in the chip which tells an automatically adjusting motherboard what speed to run the memory/fsb at.
If you simply change a jumper on your motherboard YOU ARE VIRTUALLY CERTAIN to be able to turn your 650 PIII into a 867 PIII for zero more dollars. Look up the difference in price those two chips sell at. That's $70 for free. I thought you were trying to save money.
Look, even if you don't want to overclock now, refuse delivery on the PIII 677 chip. Send it back. Don't open the box. Have them send you a PIII 650. Just live with it for a while until you realize you do want to try the jumper trick. THe difference between the 667 and the 650 is absolutely undetectible in any real world application -- until you overclock the 650 up to 866. THAT is noticeable, big time.
Trust me on this. OK?
(It's frustrating to give such long and good advice, and have it not be heard. )
BTW, I agree the guys telling you to get a duron were utterly WHACK. You already have a good working Celeron II /PIII motherboard, and you are tying to do the most cost effective upgrade. Like replacing the mobo to get a maybe 10-20% speed advantage out of a Duron per $ makes sense, when you need to spend $120 delivered, AT LEAST for a decent duron mobo. Dumb.
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