What does that matter? Russia staging nukes there in the past and making them a target for Russia's enemies at the time has no bearing on any of this. Why even bring that up?
I know Righties have conveniently short memories, but that's ridiculous. You brought up the whole nuclear arms issue.
Are you seriously asking this? It doesn't matter that they wouldn't ultimately win, it matters that the cost of invasion for Russia would simply be too high. It's a deterrent. Russia isn't nuking Ukraine because they don't have to. If Ukraine was armed with nukes and their sovereignty and very existence were at stake, Russia would expect them to use it before conceding defeat. That cost factors in to their decision to invade. This is basic, basic, stuff. MAD is not the only nuclear deterrent and it's laughable that anyone would ignore it. It's the same reason we invaded Iraq instead of Iran/NK after naming all three in the "Axis of Evil." We knew that two of the three would soon have the capability and incentive to strike back with a nuclear weapon and that the other was bluffing to intimidate its neighbor while planting plenty of "evidence" to justify an invasion. We chose to attack the one without a real nuclear program since we did not fear the consequences of their non-nuclear retaliation.
I think it matters to Ukraine who ultimately wins. Following your logic, we should reduce the place to rubble, just to show them Russkies we mean business!
We choose not to invade N Korea because neither the Russians nor the Chinese would stand for it. Reference Douglas MacArthur. We choose not to invade Iran because we'd have a real war on our hands in one of the economic choke points of the world. The conseuqences of that are incalculable, more than even Bush Admin Neocons were willing to risk.
Go back and read what I said. I said that we already needed to be doing A LOT MORE than arming them. I was implying DIRECT interventions. Airstrikes and US troops on the ground, for a start. I am comforted that we are doing more than it seems with the whole behind-the-scenes oil price manipulation designed to cripple the Russian economy, but we need a show of force that will embolden the other nations we might have treaties with in the future and satisfy those we already have treaties with. I never said "we should arm them with non-nuclear arms," so I am certainly NOT "talking in circles." I said we need to show up with our nuclear-armed might as they and others were led to expect.
They weren't led to expect that at all. Anybody who does is delusional, like you.
Why do you act like the trust issues with Ukraine are in a vacuum? The trust issues this creates are trust issues for every other nation we ever seek an agreement or treaty with while simultaneously weakening trust with those we already have agreements with. How can you possibly ignore that?
Why trust us when we're willing to make promises we can't keep? We gambled big time with our Ukrainian friends, & lost. The American public will not support shedding American blood in this particular adventure. That was understood by anybody with a lick of sense right from the start.
So, all an enemy has to do is take advantage of lax border and immigration policy to move people with their interest into a desired region in another sovereign country to dissolve the sovereignty with a sham election and YOU will stupidly see it as a government not acting in the interest of all in the country. If you expect zero ramifications, then you are setting up a blueprint for simple invasion and annexation of any country where mass illegal immigration is possible. It sounds like you bought Russia's strategy hook, line, and sinker, because that's exactly what they did. Parallel: Israeli settlements in Palestine helped annexation of large portions.
And you think sitting back and letting the Soviet empire form again by force will be bloodless?
Are you actually claiming that mass illegal immigration into Ukraine is occurring or has ever occurred? Particularly now, in the eastern war zones? That's delusional, an argument looking for some sort of realiity to attach itself to.
Re-form the Soviet Empire? More delusion. Do you really think that Russia will attack NATO & start WW3 trying to do it? Really?
Russia has drawn the line against NATO encroachment at Georgia & Ukraine. In that, they will prevail, simply because they have strategic advantage. Just take a look at the map. Take a look at History, while you're at it.
What Ukraine will end up with remains to be seen. The sooner they come to reason, the better it will be. With our help & encouragement, they've pulled some really stupid shit, miscalculated horribly, nearly destroyed civil society within their borders. They fucked themselves. Putin? They practically begged for him to fuck 'em too, and he's obliged.
So, uhh, whaddaya say? Should we double down on that? To serve what end, other than to protect our pride & try to save face?
In case you hadn't noticed, we fucked up too. But we have a patsy in Ukraine, so let's see how much the fools are willing to bleed on our behalf, huh?
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