Is an expensive PSU all that - or is it some crap everyone bought onto?

[Mucker]

FORD = Found On Road Dead
DODGE = Dead Or Dying Goverment Equipment

Ultra = Useless Loud Toasty Rails Awry
Powmax = Plenty Of Watts My A$$ Xeabass

All tongue in cheek of course.........

m

 

[thomrk]

The computers of yore consumed only 50-150W of power, compared to an average of 100W more now, and the generic power supplies of yore were built better than today's generics. Look inside old and new PSes, after unplugging the power cord and waiting an hour, of course, and you will find components with nearly identical capacities (power, amps), despite the newer PSes having much higher power ratings. How do you get higher power without using higher capacity components or using more of them? By sacrificing durability, of course. And the components in old PSes were made by U.S., Japanese, or, worst case, Korean or Taiwanese companies, but now many are Chinese, including capacitors (inherently some of the least reliable components anyway) and semiconductors (transistors, diodes), the latter often counterfeit.

DEredita, the PS in the picture was made by Deer, which produces several of the worst brands.

 

[Mellman]

Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie

Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong

Originally posted by: Operandi
A generic PSU is about 10x as likely to fail over the course of 1-2 years, never live up to their ratted power, and tend to loud. Buy generic if you want but you'll get burned eventually.

BTW, lobadobadingdong you analogy is flawed. My 98 SHO has 98,000 miles on it and still performs great .

not really, I've had several fords that still run well after 200,000+ miles, but that's besides the point, the lexas's that I've been in with over 200,000 miles still run smoother and quieter, and generally the interiors hold up better (even under messy drivers). they both work, it's all about what you care more about. the lexas (or other high end automaker) has higher quality components and testing than ford (or anyother "generic" automaker)

i thought a lexus was a ford?

lexus is a division of toyota....and since when did lexus become a high quality car manufacturer?


oh and to stay on topic...don't skimp onthe PSU, out of all the components you have it is most likely one that will last throughout the life of many upgrades, unless you change formfactors in which case you'd be SOL.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Back to the OPs question.

Although the motherboard might report decent readings the M/B isn't all knowing.

Many of the generic PSU have a lot of fluctation in the rails, ie lots of ripple. They cannot keep a constant reading. The bios however cannot detect this because it only updates every 2-3 secs. You would need to use a volt meter or a multimeter or better yet and oscilliscope to detect this.

Also the power isn't everything. Generic PSU generally have poor efficiency. A GOOD PSU should not drop below ~73% efficiency. Additionally Generic PSU also have small heatsinks, capacitors and poor fans. All of which contribute to poort quality.

To go farther Generic PSU generally have a lot of EMI or Electromagnetic Interference. Most of the high quality PSUs have copper shielding to reduce this, which in turn immproves stability.

As others have said Generics commonly cannot make it to their rated power output and have weak rails. Generally speaking ~18A is bare minimum for a 12V these days.

-Kevin

 

[doublejbass]

Actually, FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily

Personally, my '02 SVT Focus is one hell of a car, but that doesn't make the Taurus not a horrible POS, generalization gets you nowhere.

 

[Spike]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Back to the OPs question.

Although the motherboard might report decent readings the M/B isn't all knowing.

Many of the generic PSU have a lot of fluctation in the rails, ie lots of ripple. They cannot keep a constant reading. The bios however cannot detect this because it only updates every 2-3 secs. You would need to use a volt meter or a multimeter or better yet and oscilliscope to detect this.

Also the power isn't everything. Generic PSU generally have poor efficiency. A GOOD PSU should not drop below ~73% efficiency. Additionally Generic PSU also have small heatsinks, capacitors and poor fans. All of which contribute to poort quality.

To go farther Generic PSU generally have a lot of EMI or Electromagnetic Interference. Most of the high quality PSUs have copper shielding to reduce this, which in turn immproves stability.

As others have said Generics commonly cannot make it to their rated power output and have weak rails. Generally speaking ~18A is bare minimum for a 12V these days.

-Kevin

I actually took apart my Thermaltake 480 and was quite suprised, the layout is very clean with no real clutter and large heatsinks. This tells me that while it may not be regarded as a top-end PSU, it is definitly decent. Plus my computer is overclocked (both the CPU and GPU) and I run it 24/7 with stable rails and no crashing problems.

Maybe I should have spent $30 more and gotten a realy nice PSU, but for $50 I can't complain especially when it is working so well.

-spike

 

[Mucker]

Thermaltake PSU's are great bang for buck. I don't know too many unhappy owners of them.......

m

 

[NewBlackDak]

I bought a thermaltake 480 watt, because it was an emergency and the only PSU the local B&M had over 400W. I had it about 3 months, and it went up in smoke shooting a blue flame out the back. It actually schorched the paint. Will never buy a cheap PSU again!!

 

[QuantumSlip]

Originally posted by: NewBlackDak
I bought a thermaltake 480 watt, because it was an emergency and the only PSU the local B&M had over 400W. I had it about 3 months, and it went up in smoke shooting a blue flame out the back. It actually schorched the paint. Will never buy a cheap PSU again!!

i've actually had a thermaltake 480W for around 4-5 months now... nanry a problem, and alot quieter than my old Antec 430W... i guess its the luck of the draw for everyone...

 

[Pollock]

Sometimes my Thermaltake 420W scares me, because right now it's running 3.10 and 12.77 according to MBM...and I just noticed, WHY is my vcore running 1.36 when it should be 1.52?! And yet Core Center says 3.36, 11.9, and 1.39-1.41. Both read the 5V as 5.03, so I find this kind of odd. I really wanted to avoid buying a new PSU with my new system...

 

[QueBert]

I've been building my own PC's since pretty much it became an option. I've never fried a PC due to a sh!tty PSU. I've had plenty of generic ones die, but nothing major beyond that, I recently (past 12 months) started to get into "better" PSU's. I bought an Enermax, which is supposed to be a pretty good, decent priced brand. from there I went to an Allied, not their low end, but the 70 dollar model. It seemed to work well, but I botched it with my hax0ring of a PSU sleeving job and just replaced it with an Ultra X-Connect 500watt. I know the people on here love to poop on them. But I can honestly say it's been a sweet PSU so far. Quiet enough for me, love the removable cables, and wasn't priced too high, for what I got.

I'd never get the cheapest model, or the most expensive. And I would recommend the Ultra X to anyone. google and you'll find basically every review of it get a big thumbs up.

 

[Mudbone]

Originally posted by: DEredita
The only time I've seen this happen to anyone is they were running a 3200+, 1+ GB ram, multiple hard drives, 6800GT Ultra, as well as other things like one of those audidgy cards - and their generic 350 watt PSU fried.

I feel if it is enough to run the system i.e. 450watts, then it should be fine.

What is the big thing with PSU's?


- Mike

I haven't seen anyone throw out this exact set of points so here goes. You sort of answered your own question with the statement above. In the past, a 350W PSU was more than enough power. Just about any half way decent PSU would get the job done. I built a computer 5 years ago. An early P3. For the life of me I cannot remember the wattage or who made it. I am certain that at the time I made sure the PSU was adequate. I haven't thought about that PSU since I installed it in the case and that computer has been on 10 hrs or more a day for 5 years without a problem from the PSU. In the past five years, as computers have gotten better and faster and all the associated parts have gotten better and faster, the power requirements have greatly increased. I am sure that there has been increasing frequency of user built machines that have been underpowered. At the same time all those new components are running hotter. This has an additional impact. Some of the cheaper PSUs give their wattage rating at 25C, room temp. Better ones give their wattage ratings at a more realistic operating temp in the 40C to 60C range. So a so called 450watt PSU might only be half that at operating temp. The most recent change that has caused a number of us to revist our PSU choices is the re-introduction of SLI. That machine that I built 5 years ago actually had a dual Voodoo3 SLI setup in it at one point. However the power draw of today's GPU is hugh in comparison. A SLI rig fully outfitted will certainly need 450watts and maybe 500 or more and thats at a hot operation temp when you are running a hard gaming session.

The short answer is that power requirements of new computers have progressed to the point that we now have to pay attention to the PSU.

 

[Zucarita9000]

Originally posted by: DEredita
I been using generic PSU's for at least the last 11 or 12 years and I never once had a problem.
- Mike

12 years ago CPUs and video cards didn't have the power requirements they have nowdays.

 

[Spike]

Originally posted by: Zucarita9000

Originally posted by: DEredita
I been using generic PSU's for at least the last 11 or 12 years and I never once had a problem.
- Mike

12 years ago CPUs and video cards didn't have the power requirements they have nowdays.

This may be true but longevity means as much as power in my opinion. If he had generic PSU's last many years even with lower power requirements then that shows that not all generic are bad, regardless of power consumption. Back then generic PSU's were probably less than 150 watts, now you can get a 500 watt generic for $15, so they scale with time just like component power needs.

-spike

 

[Kalessian]

On this system I'm running a 360W Enlight(made by Fortron/Sparkle). It's rails are the tightest I've ever seen.

For my lower end systems, with say 200 watt power draw max, I used to use the generic 400 watters I've accumulated. Not anymore.

Had one running for a day straight, surge protected, clear weather, no overclocking, nothing using the CPU, and bam, it just blew up. Fried a harddrive which had some important things on it that I never backed up, the motherboard, the CPU, an LG CD-RW (but not the CD-ROM or floppy drive.... go figure), and a WinTV card. At least the RAM and the vid card were fine.

Had another one cause major system instability... so I won't ever use them now.

 

[Cerb]

Here's what's been going on: you're lucky. There's us, who've had our troubles, and so only stick with the right ones.
Then there's the guy who's had a dozen generics blow up.
Then on the other side of the curve from that guy, there's you.

L&C isn't good, but not terrible. With a very good 300w PSU being under $40 these days, getting generic just seems idiotic, when you'll have to spend $300+ on an upgrade.

I've seen PCs killed by PSU, and had a PC that a PSU replacement got working again. More than a few PSUs that wouldn't finish booting on newer systems, or that caused all kinds of problems...then replace the PSU and no problems since. It isn't worth the hassle when a FSP-300 can run a budget gamer system and is under $40 shipped.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Spike

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Back to the OPs question.

Although the motherboard might report decent readings the M/B isn't all knowing.

Many of the generic PSU have a lot of fluctation in the rails, ie lots of ripple. They cannot keep a constant reading. The bios however cannot detect this because it only updates every 2-3 secs. You would need to use a volt meter or a multimeter or better yet and oscilliscope to detect this.

Also the power isn't everything. Generic PSU generally have poor efficiency. A GOOD PSU should not drop below ~73% efficiency. Additionally Generic PSU also have small heatsinks, capacitors and poor fans. All of which contribute to poort quality.

To go farther Generic PSU generally have a lot of EMI or Electromagnetic Interference. Most of the high quality PSUs have copper shielding to reduce this, which in turn immproves stability.

As others have said Generics commonly cannot make it to their rated power output and have weak rails. Generally speaking ~18A is bare minimum for a 12V these days.

-Kevin

I actually took apart my Thermaltake 480 and was quite suprised, the layout is very clean with no real clutter and large heatsinks. This tells me that while it may not be regarded as a top-end PSU, it is definitly decent. Plus my computer is overclocked (both the CPU and GPU) and I run it 24/7 with stable rails and no crashing problems.

Maybe I should have spent $30 more and gotten a realy nice PSU, but for $50 I can't complain especially when it is working so well.

-spike

ThermalTake = Hipower, owned by Syrtec, and maker of Enlight PSUs, which you can sometimes find in servers that use Enlight cases (some Intel branded servers, among others). Maybe not the best, but nothing to scoff at there.

 

[Slaimus]

Originally posted by: Pollock
Sometimes my Thermaltake 420W scares me, because right now it's running 3.10 and 12.77 according to MBM...and I just noticed, WHY is my vcore running 1.36 when it should be 1.52?! And yet Core Center says 3.36, 11.9, and 1.39-1.41. Both read the 5V as 5.03, so I find this kind of odd. I really wanted to avoid buying a new PSU with my new system...

Core Center monitors the voltages with the Corecell chip, while MBM monitors them with the Winbond chip. They are located at different places on the motherboard, which may or may not show the effect of a drain. For example, if the chip is wired after the 12V went through the CPU, then you will notice huge changes in the 12V when u stress the CPU. That is purely showing the resistive effect of the load by the CPU, and not the fault of the power supply. It is best to test voltages with a multimeter on an unloaded lead from the PSU for an accurate reading.

 

[Anthony The Daddy]

I will only put Enermax, Antec, Fortron or PC Power and cooling in machines I build.

I will only put Enermax in my personal machines.

IT IS NOT A RUMOR OR NOT BS. ONLY BUY A QUALITY PSU. YES A PSU WILL MAKE YOUR MACHINE RUN FAST/SLOW. IF IT IS NOT SENDING CLEAN AND STABLE POWER YOUr MACHINE WILL NOT RUN AT OPTIMAL SPEED.

Do you not want to have a nice machine? why skimp on any parts? Do you want this hardware to last a very long time and use it with future upgrades?

If you do not want to spend a lot of money buy a Fortron for crying out loud

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: DEredita
I been using generic PSU's for at least the last 11 or 12 years and I never once had a problem. Now everyone is like "oh don't skimp on the PSU - that's bad..."

If you're happy with what you have, what difference does it make what other people say?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Back then you didn't have CPU's and Video cards suck 100+ Watts of power each. Also for the reasons i have said above.

Tt isn't crap but they are definitely entry level. The 420 is great bang for your buck but anything higher than that is a waste as there are plenty of much better PSU's out there for your money.

-Kevin

 

[HardWarrior]

And the vast minority of PC's contain high-power FRU's. In our rush to achieve validation for our hobby, it's easy for gamers to see the PC world in terms that don't aknowledge reality. The lion?s share of the market can get by just fine with clunker, cheap-lick PSU's, and won't even know, or care, about the difference.

 

[Koing]

I had one generic psu bail out on me.

I bought a new enermax for £60 at the time about 3yrs ago. It runs like a champ. No problems and I OC a bit.

Koing

 

[TheDude20165]

A "better PSU" should last longer. I've had cheap ones go in less than 6 months. But it's like everything else in the free market. You can buy a cadilac that's a lemond and have a ford escort last a life time.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

As mentioned above:

DONT BUY DEER!

I've had Aopen, Antec, and now Seasonic, and they've all been fine.

I had several Deer PSU's (in separate systems), all fail after a year or so. They are the only brand I'd never buy again.

-D'oh!