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Is an Antec VP-450 enough to power a 7950?

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Consumers often unnecessarily buy large PSUs. Very few people need huge PSUs, and the efficiency curve kills you once you slide below 10% of rated wattage, so your PC idling at 40 watts is getting inefficient electricity, AND you pay $$$ for the privilege of having a 1200W rating that you will likely not use.

Keep in mind a few things:

1) How many amps on the 12v rail is the only thing that matters in a modern PSU. Forget about total wattage. I was using a 450W PSU with up to 37 amps (444W) on the 12v rail to power a system that included such power-hungry components as a stock 1055T (six core Phenom II @ 2.8, higher with Turbo) + moderately oc'd 7970 + four HDDs + DVD-RW drive, 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM @ 1.5v, and a bunch of fans. You couldn't do that with a crappy 450W PSU because a crappy PSU would have a lot less than 444W available on the 12v rail. By the way, I bought the 450W PSU before Anandtech reviewed it, but I wasn't surprised when I later saw that it won Anandtech's Editor's Choice award: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5698/rosewill-capstone-450w-and-650w-80plus-gold/6

2) The CPU + GPU consume most of the 12v rail wattage but RAM, mobos, CPU and case fans, HDD/SSD/optical drives, sound cards, and a few other things draw from the 12v rail as well. If you sum all of those components' peak wattage, it can actually get surprisingly high (over 50W, which is higher than some CPU's TDPs), especially with high-end mobos and overclocked and overvolted RAM.

3) Summing up all the TDPs of a system overstates actual peak consumption, because it's unlikely that everything peaks at the same time. (However, oc'ing that raises power consumption, so account for that.)

4) Efficiency is usually highest at the midpoint of a PSU's rating. E.g., a 500W PSU is most efficient at 250W. But note that most people's PCs are idling more than anything else, so it's usually better to buy the bare minimum necessary to power your system, in order to extract maximum efficiency.

5) Capacitors do age slowly, dragging down the actual continuous max wattage of a unit, but...

6) ...with each die shrink we see higher and higher perf/watt, the net effect being that peak system wattage is on the decline (stock vs. stock). On the CPU side we get slightly better performance each year and significantly lower wattage. On the GPU side it depends on the generation but recently we have seen a much higher gain in performance each year (compared to CPU gains), at the same wattage as previous-generation GPUs. Low-voltage RAM has driven power consumption down, but we also have more RAM so that kind of evens out. Motherboards are dropping in wattage as many of their previous components are absorbed by the CPU--the northbridge and southbridge are shadows of their former selves, and you don't even need as much VRM and power circuitry for the CPU anymore, since CPU wattage keeps dropping. Fans aren't getting any more efficient, but most only use a fraction of a watt anyway. I don't know about optical drives, but hard drive power usage keeps dropping as well, if we even use HDDs anymore because some of them are being replaced by even-lower-wattage SSDs which draw less than a watt at idle.

Bottom line: buy the smallest wattage PSU you can find that still meets your needs on the 12v rail and isn't too loud, enjoy the higher efficiency and savings in your wallet, and let time take care of the rest. Die shrinks will more than counter the effects of aging capacitors.
 
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THE PLOT THICKENS

Very interesting. Maybe I will try it.


My other question would be how to hook it up if I did decide to get the 7950.

The VP-450 only supplies a single 6-pin pcie connector, I would have to use a 2molex>8-pin pcie adaptor in order to get the GPU to run, and I would have to make sure that I am using molex adaptors connected to a different 12v rail than the one the 6-pin is hooked up too, that way I have both 12v rails powering the card.

Am I correct in what I have written above?

Thanks so much guys!
 
"Bottom line: buy the smallest wattage PSU you can find that still meets your needs on the 12v rail and isn't too loud, enjoy the higher efficiency, and let time take care of the rest. Die shrinks will more than counter the effects of aging capacitors."

sorry but that is just stupid. most comps are going to idle around 60-80 watts anyway any worrying about the minuscule efficiency difference from a high wattage pc to a low wattage one is insane. same goes for being under load as unless you are sitting there with precise monitoring tools you will never see any real world difference.

it makes WAY more sense to get a psu that has plenty of wiggle room in case of upgrades. a psu with plenty of wiggle room will run quieter, run cooler, and last longer. thats more logical than worrying about a couple of percentage points of efficiency.
 
"Bottom line: buy the smallest wattage PSU you can find that still meets your needs on the 12v rail and isn't too loud, enjoy the higher efficiency, and let time take care of the rest. Die shrinks will more than counter the effects of aging capacitors."

sorry but that is just stupid. most comps are going to idle around 60-80 watts anyway any worrying about the minuscule efficiency difference from a high wattage pc to a low wattage one is insane. same goes for being under load as unless you are sitting there with precise monitoring tools you will never see any real world difference.

it makes WAY more sense to get a psu that has plenty of wiggle room in case of upgrades. a psu with plenty of wiggle room will run quieter, run cooler, and last longer. thats more logical than worrying about a couple of percentage points of efficiency.


That's the thing.

According the RSensations charts, the VP-450 does provide the necessary wiggle room for my system. My system would be drawing probably 300 or less watts at full load. The VP-450 puts out well over 500?
 
...


it makes WAY more sense to get a psu that has plenty of wiggle room in case of upgrades. a psu with plenty of wiggle room will run quieter, run cooler, and last longer. thats more logical than worrying about a couple of percentage points of efficiency.

You're right to point this out, but it doesn't apply in a case like the OP's where he already has a PSU.

The truth is there's almost no way a 7950 WON'T work on the 450w PSU, as long as you don't overclock. With your CPU and a stock 7950, you probably wouldn't be above 300w.

As to the OP's question on which molex leads to connect the PCIe adapter, well, that's a great question that I really don't know the answer to. I have a PCIe adapter connected to my Corsair 400w PSU, but I didn't have much choice on which molex connectors to use - I think there's only one cable with the leads.

Therefore, the question might be a somewhat academic one, but you can feel free to ask in the PSU forum, where more experts might weigh in.
 
"Bottom line: buy the smallest wattage PSU you can find that still meets your needs on the 12v rail and isn't too loud, enjoy the higher efficiency, and let time take care of the rest. Die shrinks will more than counter the effects of aging capacitors."

sorry but that is just stupid. most comps are going to idle around 60-80 watts anyway any worrying about the minuscule efficiency difference from a high wattage pc to a low wattage one is insane. same goes for being under load as unless you are sitting there with precise monitoring tools you will never see any real world difference.

it makes WAY more sense to get a psu that has plenty of wiggle room in case of upgrades. a psu with plenty of wiggle room will run quieter, run cooler, and last longer. thats more logical than worrying about a couple of percentage points of efficiency.

+1
 
My other question would be how to hook it up if I did decide to get the 7950.

The VP-450 only supplies a single 6-pin pcie connector, I would have to use a 2molex>8-pin pcie adaptor in order to get the GPU to run, and I would have to make sure that I am using molex adaptors connected to a different 12v rail than the one the 6-pin is hooked up too, that way I have both 12v rails powering the card.

Am I correct in what I have written above?

Thanks so much guys!
 
That's the thing.

According the RSensations charts, the VP-450 does provide the necessary wiggle room for my system. My system would be drawing probably 300 or less watts at full load. The VP-450 puts out well over 500?
I was not referring to you at all.
 
My other question would be how to hook it up if I did decide to get the 7950.

The VP-450 only supplies a single 6-pin pcie connector, I would have to use a 2molex>8-pin pcie adaptor in order to get the GPU to run, and I would have to make sure that I am using molex adaptors connected to a different 12v rail than the one the 6-pin is hooked up too, that way I have both 12v rails powering the card.

Am I correct in what I have written above?

Thanks so much guys!

See my response above.

The Antec has "4x" peripheral leads, which is how molex are referred to on the spec sheet: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371045

My guess is that's it's two lines of two connectors each. In that's the case, I don't know how you determine which rail it's on. If it's one line of four connectors, you won't have any choice on which 12v rail you're using.
 
I used to enjoy taking PSU's to the max untill one fried.

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Motherboard gone
HD gone
Video Card gone.

I'll spend 100$ anyday to offset the chance of burning up MONEY and TIME.

Total cost of pushing the limits: $400.

Cost in Aggravation, Cursing and stress: PRICELESS
 
I used to enjoy taking PSU's to the max untill one fried.

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Motherboard gone
HD gone
Video Card gone.

I'll spend 100$ anyday to offset the chance of burning up MONEY and TIME.

Total cost of pushing the limits: $400.

Cost in Aggravation, Cursing and stress: PRICELESS


I fried a 550watt Psu with kombustor and a Gtx 275... Sparks were flying out the back and smokeing like a house fire... But by some act of god.. the cpu mb ram and gpu were all fine...
 
Would the Rosewill Capstone 450 be a good upgrade over the VP-450?

Would I then be able to run any single GPU without worrying about power?
 
The VP-450 only supplies a single 6-pin pcie connector, I would have to use a 2molex>8-pin pcie adaptor in order to get the GPU to run, and I would have to make sure that I am using molex adaptors connected to a different 12v rail than the one the 6-pin is hooked up too, that way I have both 12v rails powering the card.

7950 cards that use 6+8 pin configuration will have a 4-pin to 6/8 pin PCI Express adapter. Worst case scenario, you can always buy a 6-pin to 8-pin PCIe adapter for $5 with shipping. I wouldn't upgrade your PSU, its testing shows that it's actually very good. Can pull 186W of power from each 12V rail at stock, and more with overloaded testing. A 7950 draws less than 160W. If you want to OC the CPU and GPU, then maybe. It just seems your PSU is way underrated. It's called a 450W PSU but based on the testing, it's way more powerful. If you are worried about power, there is no point of upgrading to yet another 450W PSU. Yours is a good 450W power unit. If you are going to upgrade for the future, get a 550-600W then.
 
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Good to know. Thanks RSensation, you are the man!

Do you know if it would matter which molex connectors I connect to the pci-e adaptor in order to ensure that the card is recieving juice from both 12v rails?

Or would that not make a difference?
 
"Bottom line: buy the smallest wattage PSU you can find that still meets your needs on the 12v rail and isn't too loud, enjoy the higher efficiency, and let time take care of the rest. Die shrinks will more than counter the effects of aging capacitors."

sorry but that is just stupid. most comps are going to idle around 60-80 watts anyway any worrying about the minuscule efficiency difference from a high wattage pc to a low wattage one is insane. same goes for being under load as unless you are sitting there with precise monitoring tools you will never see any real world difference.

it makes WAY more sense to get a psu that has plenty of wiggle room in case of upgrades. a psu with plenty of wiggle room will run quieter, run cooler, and last longer. thats more logical than worrying about a couple of percentage points of efficiency.

What part of "still meets your needs" did you not read? That includes any "wiggle room" you project you may need, and nobody is saying there shouldn't be any cushion at all. I had about a 100 watt cushion when running my old system for instance, not including the not-all-peak-simultaneously cushion, either. But there is no need for massive "wiggle room" if you buy a quality PSU in the first place--one that is meant to run up to and including its continuous power draw rating, not some el cheapo PSU that came for free with your el cheapo case.

The best Gold and Platinum PSUs are so efficient that they don't even generate that much heat and can go fanless for most wattages and spin up the fan only when necessary. What you don't seem to understand is that a top-end PSU is highly efficient and translates most of the wattage coming from the wall into DC current for your components, losing less than 10% of that current as power. Case in point:

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/03/01/kingwin_lzp550_550w_power_supply_review/4 (which itself doesn't spin up the fan until wattage is well into the hundreds of watts): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121083)

Even at 559W load, the temperature of the exhaust for this 550W PSU was 52C. Yes, 559W, which is over 100% of its rated load. In fact this PSU can go all the way up to 650W and retain 80+ Gold efficiency.

Yes there are highly efficient 1200W PSUs too, which also get ~52C temperatures at 600W load, but they cost $250-300: http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/12/15/thermaltake_toughpower_grand_1200w_psu_review/5 (52C exhaust at 608W load)

Is it worth paying $150+ more for? It's the same temperature exhaust, and keep in mind that exhaust goes straight out the back of your PC and not into your components, for most enthusiast-grade bottom-mounted cases; also consider the fact that most good PSU's components are rated for well over 100C.

Imho, as long as you don't plan on needing more than ~500W load for current or future rigs, there is no real difference between running a LZP-550 and that huge Thermaltake, except that the LZP-550 costs $150-200 less and is more efficient and pays for itself over the years via lower power bills.

Here's another test, a 850W PSU that is priced similarly to the Kingwin. Same thing, about 52C. Nothing to worry about. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/12/27/nzxt_hale82_850w_power_supply_review/4

Here's a 650W watt PSU that SHUT DOWN when approaching its rated spec despite having slightly LOWER temperatures, showing that temperatures aren't everything, you want quality components in your PSU (besides you can always get temps down by spinning the fan faster and louder, but that's not an optimal solution): http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/12/20/ocz_zt_series_650w_power_supply_review/4

Compare that to the Kingwin LZP-550 which can actually go OVER its rated spec to 650W and retain 80+ Gold efficiency to boot. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story3&reid=219

In case you think the Kingwin is an anomaly, here are reviews and exhaust temps etc. for another well-built smaller PSU, the Seasonic 460W fanless; you can't go quieter than fanless and it has low temperatures if you're paranoid about that, and it goes on sale for $90 occasionally at newegg after mail in rebate, is Gold-rated efficient, and has plenty of amps on the 12v rail:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3962/seasonic-x460fl-460w-fanless/7

Needless to say I would rather have the Seasonic 460W than some worse-quality 600W PSU for the same price.

Reasonably minds can disagree, and if you are going to buy crappy PSUs like the OCZ that failed to reach 100% load (see above), then yes you should buy over-spec'd PSUs and HOPE they don't fail... or just buy the higher-quality PSU at the proper wattage rating (and 12v rail rating) in the first place. For the record, I would never advise anyone to buy anything other than good-quality PSUs in the first place. Your calling me "stupid" is not discourse. It's attempted bullying when you don't have the facts on your side, and I'm calling you out for it and other instances I've seen where you were just as rude to others. If you can't make your (wrong) point without insulting others, perhaps you shouldn't say anything at all.
 
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BTW according to hwcompare the 7950 draws 200 watts

http://www.hwcompare.com/12191/radeon-hd-7870-vs-radeon-hd-7950/

Does that change things?

That's TDP measure you used, has little to do with actual real world power consumption. Here is peak for an after-market 7950.
power_peak.gif


It's going to be ~200W after you overclock to 1150mhz+.

MSI TF3 880mhz is less than 160W, easily.

imageview.php


This is similar to 470/480 scenario. The 480 was the real power hog but both the 470 and 480 got the same label. 7950 is a lot better than 7970 for power consumption.
 
Would the Rosewill Capstone 450 be a good upgrade over the VP-450?

Would I then be able to run any single GPU without worrying about power?

At current prices it's not as good of a deal as when I bought it for $60, but yes, it can handle BOTH a 7950 and your CPU with ease as long as you don't go crazy with overvolting and overclocking. Actually overvolting is what spikes power up, if you are at stock voltage you can overclock a lot and still not raise your wattage up by too much. Assuming the rest of your system is typical (no weirdness like 12 hard disks or whatever), you will have plenty left over.

But you might not need to upgrade your PSU depending on your exact system draw, esp. on the 12v rail.

And the people talking about exploding PSUs or whatever should have bought better-quality PSUs to begin with AND installed a surge protector--a good one, not a $5 cheapie. A legitimately good PSU (Seasonic, or some of the better SuperFlower designs), plus a good surge protector, would likely not have exploded or whatever.
 
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<- runs ok OC both on CPU n GPU. 450W Silverstone.

Silverstone PSUs are legitimately good as well. :thumbsup:

Actually as rule of thumb, the majority of gold and platinum rated PSUs are made with quality parts. Some of them skimp a little, though like the Antec platinums, so you should always triple-check the guts of any PSU before you buy it, by looking at the better review sites like anandtech, hardocp, TechPowerUp, and of course jonnyguru.
 
I think all those crappy power supplies skewed how a lot of people view PSUs. While the modern Seasonic, Antec, Corsair, PC Power & Cooling, Kingwin Platinum units, etc. are actually rated at their wattages, the older PSUs you had to assign an arbitrary 70-80% cushion since that's all they could provide. If a good quality Gold or Platinum PSU is rated at 500W, that means it'll actually do full 500W 24/7. Even older models, whether Bronze or Silver, as long as they are built by a reputable maker can do sustained wattage as the rating implies. It looks like this VP-450 model is actually a relative modern PSU. I don't think there is a need to assume it can only do 350W or anything like that.
 
well I can tell you that my experience with a Antec Neo Eco 520 watt psu was not great even though I was no where nears its max. going over 350 watts just at the wall and that psu fan would work like crazy and I could feel the heat just pouring out the back. going to the Corsair 620 watt was worth every penny. no more fan noise and that psu did not even get warm powering my system with oced gtx570. I will NEVER again buy a psu that does not have plenty of wiggle room.
 
well I can tell you that my experience with a Antec Neo Eco 520 watt psu was not great even though I was no where nears its max. going over 350 watts just at the wall and that psu fan would work like crazy and I could feel the heat just pouring out the back. going to the Corsair 620 watt was worth every penny. no more fan noise and that psu did not even get warm powering my system with oced gtx570. I will NEVER again buy a psu that does not have plenty of wiggle room.

What you said used to be true and is still true for lesser-quality PSUs which are unfortunately still on the market thanks to cheapskates who don't know any better and look at peak wattage numbers instead of continuous wattage and 12v rail amperage.

But times change. Thankfully Jonnyguru, Techpowerup, Anandtech, HardOCP, and a few other sites that test PSUs rigorously, have led to higher-quality stuff these days that are capable of continuous load at 100% of rating. The really good units can even go above their 100% load rating for a few hours, like the 550W-rated Platinum Kingwin unit I linked to that can go all the way to 650W if you're willing to drop down to Gold efficiency levels. I'm not advocating that; I think everyone should avoid running their PSUs at 100% load and should run at no more than 85% continuously if possible. But buying lower-quality PSUs rated at higher wattage makes little sense when you can save money up front and through lower electric bills by buying a high-quality PSU that is the appropriate size for your needs in the first place.

Basically, I think you are recommending higher wattage numbers for massive "wiggle room" just because you think all PSUs are suspect, but that's an inefficient way to go about things, plus it doesn't always work. For instance that 600W OCZ PSU I linked to couldn't even get to its rated wattage and shut itself down; as HardOCP put it, it couldn't even get past 75% of its rated load. So much for wiggle room.

As for your old Antec, I can't find reviews on it very easily. Could be a 12v rail issue if it's got split rails, or maybe it's just typical Antec, and by that I mean that Antec products typically skimp which is why I have never purchased any Antec product other than a case that I flipped for a profit a while back. For instance: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Antec/EA-650_Platinum/4.html (Antec caught red-handed using Chinese capacitors rated to 85C; compare this to the Japanese-caps Kingwin rated at higher temps and which reaches a true Platinum level of efficiency instead of half-assing it like the Antec--see http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Antec/EA-650_Platinum/5.html and how Antec's alleged Plat PSU couldn't actually meet official Plat specs... Antec does this kind of half-assery too often for my liking)

As for the Corsair, which is likely a rebranded Seasonic if they didn't change suppliers: I had a Seasonic version of that power supply and can vouch for it; in fact I can vouch for pretty much any Seasonic-built PSU. But it wasn't efficient enough for me, so I sold it and upgraded to the Kingwin Platinum AP-550 (made by SuperFlower, which also makes the Rosewill Capstone Gold 450W). I paid almost $30 more for the AP-550 than I would have had to pay for a slightly used Antec Platinum rated at higher wattage, but I have no doubt that I made the right choice because I take PSU quality very seriously and do not tolerate iffy Chinese capacitors. Between my gf and I we both run SuperFlower-built PSUs 24/7 at heavy load (~80%) and have had zero problems for months. Yes, that's MONTHS of continuous ~80% load, with hardly any downtime, and I feel a hell of a lot better about doing that with the SuperFlowers than I would with a lesser-quality PSU rated at higher wattage.

Also, always use a powerful surge protector, not a $5 garbage one as no matter how good your PSU is, it can't fend off particularly bad power surges as it's not built to do so.
 
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