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Is America still the land of the free?

StinkyPinky

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Because as someone who does a lot of travelling I get the distinct and uneasy feeling that parts of Europe and Australia/Canada/New Zealand may have overtaken us in that regard. Over here, television is heavily censored, the age of consent is way too high in some states, the drinking age is a joke, it seems that tolerance of gays and alternate lifestyles isn't exactly very good in large parts of this country (look at the NJ governor just now), the zero tolerance drug policy, and people that don't fit into the all-american stereotype can be given a hard time. Not to mention that people that arent native born can never be President even if they moved here as a child.

I was in New Zealand for most of 2003 and they have a female Prime Minister and open gays and a trans-sexual in parliament. Can you imagine a trans-sexual over here?

I hear all the time that the good old US of A is the most free nation on Earth. What do you think? Ignorant propaganda or still the truth? Do we still have the most personal freedom in the world? Would a black trans-sexual get into congress over here?
 
You make some good points. I definitely have never felt more free in the US than in Canada, and there are some definite areas in which the US is not free, as you mentioned.
 
Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Because as someone who does a lot of travelling I get the distinct and uneasy feeling that parts of Europe and Australia/Canada/New Zealand may have overtaken us in that regard. Over here, television is heavily censored, the age of consent is way too high in some states, the drinking age is a joke, it seems that tolerance of gays and alternate lifestyles isn't exactly very good in large parts of this country (look at the NJ governor just now), the zero tolerance drug policy, and people that don't fit into the all-american stereotype can be given a hard time. Not to mention that people that arent native born can never be President even if they moved here as a child.

I was in New Zealand for most of 2003 and they have a female Prime Minister and open gays and a trans-sexual in parliament. Can you imagine a trans-sexual over here?

I hear all the time that the good old US of A is the most free nation on Earth. What do you think? Ignorant propaganda or still the truth? Do we still have the most personal freedom in the world? Would a black trans-sexual get into congress over here?
Click to expand...

First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms.

I agree the war on drugs is a travesty. But you must consider economic freedom when counting freedoms.

As for the born in the US thing, it's in our Constitution. It was a protection against underhanded foreign invasions.

BTW, the NJ governer is NOT resigning because he's gay. He's resigning because he's a crook. Read the whole story.
 
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms.
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Well, not in the case of gay marriages, drinking age, etc.
 
Well there are other restrictions on media and speech in these other areas that you have mentioned. Overall, I'd say that you're not likely to see much of a difference in 'freedom'.
 
I agree with you about the freedoom we lose due to 9/11, terrorist, war on drugs, ect.

Even with all the faults, the U.S. still have the largest number of people trying to get in.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
You make some good points. I definitely have never felt more free in the US than in Canada, and there are some definite areas in which the US is not free, as you mentioned.
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Edit: nevermind, read that as "definitely feel more free in the US than Canada"
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms.
Click to expand...
Well, not in the case of gay marriages, drinking age, etc.
Click to expand...

No, I didn;t mean those.

As for gay marriage, hell, all the other countries are just coming around to it now, too. Personally, I don't think the government should be in the marriage business at all.

And the drinking age was raised by nanny-staters. We are losing more and more of our freedoms to these people.

But the most important freedoms we have are economic. The US still leads the world in class crossing. It's the most likely country in which a lowerclass person can rise to wealth.

And let's not forget our Second Amendment rights.
 
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms
Click to expand...

But they are. Try drinking in a bar when you are 18 in the US and you will get kicked out because it's illegal. In Europe they welcome you with open arms. Isn't that a type of personal freedom? To drink in a bar with some friends?
 
Originally posted by: Svnla
I agree with you about the freedoom we lose due to 9/11, terrorist, war on drugs, ect.
Click to expand...

I cannot think of one freedom I lost due to 9/11. Can you?
 
Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms
Click to expand...

But they are. Try drinking in a bar when you are 18 in the US and you will get kicked out because it's illegal. In Europe they welcome you with open arms. Isn't that a type of personal freedom? To drink in a bar with some friends?
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You picked a law. You have many social stigmas in your post that are NOT laws here. Can you pick them out?
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms.
Click to expand...
Well, not in the case of gay marriages, drinking age, etc.
Click to expand...

drinking age 18 in canada :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Skoorb
First off, we can remove all the social stigmas. Those are not laws, but popular opinions. They are not legal restrictions on freedoms.
Click to expand...
Well, not in the case of gay marriages, drinking age, etc.
Click to expand...

No, I didn;t mean those.

As for gay marriage, hell, all the other countries are just coming around to it now, too. Personally, I don't think the government should be in the marriage business at all.

And the drinking age was raised by nanny-staters. We are losing more and more of our freedoms to these people.

But the most important freedoms we have are economic. The US still leads the world in class crossing. It's the most likely country in which a lowerclass person can rise to wealth.

And let's not forget our Second Amendment rights.
Click to expand...
I agree about the marriage thing totally. And the nanny-staters, and the economic freedom (which is one of the key reasons we're here and not still in Canada).
 
The most illuminating thing here is the age difference between us. You see freedom as only social freedom and ignore economic freedom (I used to do the same thing). Wait until you try to start and grow a business in any of those countries vs the US and then we will talk.

While I bitch about the incredible amount of economic freedoms we have lost in the US, it's still far more free than most other nations.
 
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Svnla
I agree with you about the freedoom we lose due to 9/11, terrorist, war on drugs, ect.
Click to expand...

I cannot think of one freedom I lost due to 9/11. Can you?
Click to expand...

You ever heard of the Patroit act? Takes away alot of personal freedoms and privacy. And the only reason it passed was 9/11.... oh and version 2 is worse.
 
Originally posted by: Glitchny
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Svnla
I agree with you about the freedoom we lose due to 9/11, terrorist, war on drugs, ect.
Click to expand...

I cannot think of one freedom I lost due to 9/11. Can you?
Click to expand...

You ever heard of the Patroit act? Takes away alot of personal freedoms and privacy. And the only reason it passed was 9/11.... oh and version 2 is worse.
Click to expand...

Well some of the countries mentioned in the title have their own version similar to the Patriot Act.
 
Originally posted by: Glitchny
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Svnla
I agree with you about the freedoom we lose due to 9/11, terrorist, war on drugs, ect.
Click to expand...

I cannot think of one freedom I lost due to 9/11. Can you?
Click to expand...

You ever heard of the Patroit act? Takes away alot of personal freedoms and privacy. And the only reason it passed was 9/11.... oh and version 2 is worse.
Click to expand...

Name a freedom you enjoyed before the Patriot Act that you cannot enjoy now.

The Patriot Act is bad because it has the POTENTIAL for abuse. But as of yet, I have seen no abuses.
 
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: Amused
While I bitch about the incredible amount of economic freedoms we have lost in the US, it's still far more free than most other nations.
Click to expand...

Do you have any examples?
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Examples of freedoms lost?

For one, we are now forced to contribute to socialist programs that are abject failures. The other is the ever increasing and inane regulations on business.
 
Originally posted by: Amused
The most illuminating thing here is the age difference between us. You see freedom as only social freedom and ignore economic freedom (I used to do the same thing). Wait until you try to start and grow a business in any of those countries vs the US and then we will talk.

While I bitch about the incredible amount of economic freedoms we have lost in the US, it's still far more free than most other nations.
Click to expand...


A fair point about business. Places like France are notorious for red tape. But social freedoms are a concern to me as well, and it bugs me that these nanny-staters (good word) continue to impose some ancient victorian laws and stigmas on us.
 
I still think it's a land of the free, but not THE land of the free since lots of countries belong in that category. I think you can come up with all sorts of examples for other countries.
 
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