Is AMD in trouble?

Spinne

Member
Sep 24, 2003
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So we've all seen Conroe (or Core 2 Duo) numbers from Anandtech as well as other websites. Is AMD in trouble in the short run? What about in the long run?

In the short run (< 0.5 - 1 year), I think there will be several determining factors that decide the tempreture of the water that AMD will be in on the 27th of July. First and foremost is the retail availibility of the Core2 Duo (C2D) processors. So far, most websites feel that Intel will be hard pressed to make C2D processors readily available in retail at launch due to OEMs buying up stock in advance. A few have reported otherwise. The (unconfirmed) postponement of the launch date to the 27th from the 22nd suggests that Intel won't be paper launching the C2D in retail. You don't postpone by 5 days if you can't make your product available easily - you postpone by a longer period of time. The 5 day postponement suggests delivary issues rather than product related issues. If I'm proven wrong, and the 27th turns out to be a paper launch, then AMD will no doubt be in less trouble than they would be otherwise.

The price cuts announced by AMD as well as the rumoured 256kb X2 processors will help sales as well. The K8 architecture is not that cache hungry, atleast when you compare the 512kb models to the 1mb models. So it is very likely that the 256kb part won't be a performance loser. The lower cost of producing 256kb parts should help in that case.

There's also the fact that the 939 platform is very mature with a plethora of boards available with different features. This means that the C2D platform would be competing against the AM2 platform (relatively immature) as well as the 939 platform.

Therefore it seems to me that in the short run, while it is likely that AMD will be swept off it's feet by C2D, there is a definate possibilty that X2 sales won't be hit that hard. In the single core market, there is no C2D processor, so AMD should continue to do well there.

In the long run (> 0.5 - 1 yr), the C2D doesn't sound as daunting to me as the performance numbers would suggest. The K8 architecture itself is sound. The fact that the C2D architecture resembles the K8 architecture (atleast to me from what I've read at Anandtech and X-Bit Labs) reinforces that belief. Improvements to the K8 architecture such as increasing the number of execution units (have 4-5 complex units or 3 complex + 2 simple), widening data paths etc.. should allow it to superscede the C2D architecture. This may take a year or so to implement at worst. Naive as I am (so please feel free to correct me), what needs to be done to the K8 seems akin to what ATI did to the R520 to turn it into the R580 i.e. push numbers up and increase the performance of each unit slightly. This, I feel, is because while the C2D architecture may be revolutionary for Intel, comming after Netburst, it is more evolutionary for AMD and it is the direction that I'd have expected them to take to counter Tejas, had that Netburst design made it to the NewEgg warehouse.

In conclusion, I feel that AMD has a little to be worried about in the short term, but it is sound in the long term. This is the time of the spring of Intel's architecture, wheras it's mid autumn for AMD, meaning that AMD will see a brand new spanking architecture before Intel will (sort of like when AMD's K8 dethroned Netburst after a year or so of mediocre K7 performance). I am not an AMD fanboy, in fact, I don't even think it's possible to favor either Intel over AMD or the other way around because of the length of the product cycle. Let me know what you guys think.
 

Furen

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2004
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Originally posted by: Spinne
In the long run (> 0.5 - 1 yr), the C2D doesn't sound as daunting to me as the performance numbers would suggest. The K8 architecture itself is sound. The fact that the C2D architecture resembles the K8 architecture (atleast to me from what I've read at Anandtech and X-Bit Labs) reinforces that belief. Improvements to the K8 architecture such as increasing the number of execution units (have 4-5 complex units or 3 complex + 2 simple), widening data paths etc.. should allow it to superscede the C2D architecture. This may take a year or so to implement at worst. Naive as I am (so please feel free to correct me), what needs to be done to the K8 seems akin to what ATI did to the R520 to turn it into the R580 i.e. push numbers up and increase the performance of each unit slightly. This, I feel, is because while the C2D architecture may be revolutionary for Intel, comming after Netburst, it is more evolutionary for AMD and it is the direction that I'd have expected them to take to counter Tejas, had that Netburst design made it to the NewEgg warehouse.

In conclusion, I feel that AMD has a little to be worried about in the short term, but it is sound in the long term. This is the time of the spring of Intel's architecture, wheras it's mid autumn for AMD, meaning that AMD will see a brand new spanking architecture before Intel will (sort of like when AMD's K8 dethroned Netburst after a year or so of mediocre K7 performance). I am not an AMD fanboy, in fact, I don't even think it's possible to favor either Intel over AMD or the other way around because of the length of the product cycle. Let me know what you guys think.

There are no "simple" decoders in AMD's microarchitecture. There's the regular hardware decoders (which decode pretty much every instruction, what others call "complex" decoders) and there's the microcode decoder, which is pretty much a really slow table lookup. The changes you suggest would require much more than a year, since they're a sweeping redesign of the front end, not to mention that there would have to be some backend improvements as well. That said, it looks like K8L, which has been in development for a while, may actually introduce many of these changes (sans the widening of the execution path... maybe).

Cache DOES hurt AMD, especially so in gaming applications. Hell, it hursts Allendale a lot, a 10-16% performance hit is huge, considering that it is the same basic "Conroe" architecture. That said, I still think that the 3600+ is good choice, since most people are better served by raw clock speed than by larger caches.



 

Canterwood

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
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Its funny, AMD has spanked Intel for the past 3 years or so, but now Conroe is on the horizon everyone is asking if AMD can survive.

Of course they will.

Intel will take the crown in perfomance for a few months, but AMD will slash prices to compete.
Then I expect AMD to release something at least competitive (K8L) with Intel, then who knows.

Competition is good for the consumer, but if AMD does ever go under, then everyone can expect to be royally screwed for every $ by Intel.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,415
404
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A 256KB L2 will noticeably impact the K8's performance, but not in the majority of areas.
I've got data comparing a Sempy 3400+ (256KB), A64 3000+ (Venice - 512KB) and A64 3700+ (ClawHammer - 1MB) all clocked at the same speed.
Basically, 512KB is the sweet spot, 256KB is a very acceptable compromise, 128KB (lower-end Sempys) is downright horrible and 1MB is a little overkill (although you will still see improvements in L2 sensitive apps, esp. games).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,759
6,324
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Not really.

Not here nor in the Server/Workstation Market. AMD is making gains where they count most, the Desktop is not near as Profitable.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
I don't think AMD is in trouble even a little bit. They have a very loyal fan base who will continue to buy their products and purchase upgrades to fit in their still viable 939 and AM2 based motherboards rather than make the complete jump to an Intel platform. And they will no doubt have competive cpu products again.

The best part about this new Intel C2D part is that it will force AMD to become price competitive again which is something they didn't worry about either while they wore the speed crown. Competition is always great for the consumer. It keeps either of these corporations, and AMD is just as bad as Intel in this regard, from bleeding us dry.

 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
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Sep 16, 2005
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It's a setback for them, because they had just gotten to the point where major OEMs like Dell and HP had come to terms with the fact that if you wanted to build the fastest systems you had to go AMD.

But it's not a big deal longer term for a lot of reasons. There's no way they were surprised by this, and no way that their business plan assumed "we'll be on top forever." Also, the industry wants them around, or Intel owns the house.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
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how are they not in trouble? It took 3 years of performance dominance to even get noticed and start making gains in the market. I dont see how they wont lose market share when intel regains the performance crown.

Also, k8l is 1 year away and nobody knows for sure if it will match conroe as it stands now, and nobody knows what intel has in store 1 year from now. Granted i doubt intel will release an entirely new architecture in 1 year but you have to expect some incremental increases in performance.

Editorials all over the web warned of AMD's complacency for a while now. They should have pushed their advantage instead of settlign for being just a step above intel. Now they are gonna be several steps below intel and jeebus knows when they can hit back.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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Originally posted by: Canterwood
Its funny, AMD has spanked Intel for the past 3 years or so, but now Conroe is on the horizon everyone is asking if AMD can survive.

Of course they will.

Intel will take the crown in perfomance for a few months, but AMD will slash prices to compete.
Then I expect AMD to release something at least competitive (K8L) with Intel, then who knows.

Competition is good for the consumer, but if AMD does ever go under, then everyone can expect to be royally screwed for every $ by Intel.

Intel does not want AMD to go under. They keep Intel out of monopolistic court hearings. I don't know much about that stuff, but seems logical in a way.

OP: All I can say is, watch how the stock does over the next year. AMD will be around for a long time, you can rest assured on that. How well they do against Intel over the next few rounds will depend on how passive or aggressive Intel will be. By the looks of it, and Intels statement of introducing a brand new architecture every 2 years (we'll see about this one) shows Intel has had enough.

 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,275
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The fact that the C2D architecture resembles the K8 architecture (atleast to me from what I've read at Anandtech and X-Bit Labs) reinforces that belief.

Where'd you read that? They are very different. Not as much as P4 though.

As for the op question, depends how K8L competes. If it cannot beat a late merom or penryn, amd is screwed for a long time.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
I get a real kick out stuff like this. For one the market share AMD has won will not be lost. Here's why. One the late arrival of Core2. For Intel to even see any impact at all it would need at least 2 quarters preferably 3. The problem with that is K8L will be here and there is no reason for me to believe that it won't outperform or equal Core2. Two even right now all is speculation with Conroe and the true place of importance, the server market, it looks like AMD will still win 4 server and up setups and I believe will compete very well with the AM2 deriative Optys, not to mention higher clockspeeds with 65mm will arrive in Q4 as well.

Intel waited too long and folks are still waiting. Core is damn good and would have put Intel clearly back in the driver seat if it had been around late 3rd quarter or so last year and at the very latest earlier this year. They just waited too long. I am going to buy a Conroe, but it ain't gonna change thing for Intel's fortunes unless K8L is a flop. I see no chance at all of that happening. Holding your load is only profitable in certain situations ;).
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
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106
Is AMD in trouble... again? Let's open our history books and read the following chapter:

Intel is succeding and AMD will have serious problems.

From the chapter:

The P4 Northwood will be out in a few weeks at frequencies up to at least 2.2 Ghz initially. Amd won't have anything to compete with that until maybe in mars, even with their .. rating system.
And they are about to lose the performance crown back to Intel BIG TIME and will not be able to take it back anytime soon, if ever.

History repeating...
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
Is AMD in trouble... again? Let's open our history books and read the following chapter:

Intel is succeding and AMD will have serious problems.

From the chapter:

The P4 Northwood will be out in a few weeks at frequencies up to at least 2.2 Ghz initially. Amd won't have anything to compete with that until maybe in mars, even with their .. rating system.
And they are about to lose the performance crown back to Intel BIG TIME and will not be able to take it back anytime soon, if ever.

History repeating...
Strange quote there, bub. :confused: Quoting a fanboy from years gone by...

Anyway, this new cpu by Intel does take the performance crown and as, you can tell,
no one is predictng AMD's demise. :roll:


 

coldpower27

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2004
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Originally posted by: classy
I get a real kick out stuff like this. For one the market share AMD has won will not be lost. Here's why. One the late arrival of Core2. For Intel to even see any impact at all it would need at least 2 quarters preferably 3. The problem with that is K8L will be here and there is no reason for me to believe that it won't outperform or equal Core2. Two even right now all is speculation with Conroe and the true place of importance, the server market, it looks like AMD will still win 4 server and up setups and I believe will compete very well with the AM2 deriative Optys, not to mention higher clockspeeds with 65mm will arrive in Q4 as well.

Intel waited too long and folks are still waiting. Core is damn good and would have put Intel clearly back in the driver seat if it had been around late 3rd quarter or so last year and at the very latest earlier this year. They just waited too long. I am going to buy a Conroe, but it ain't gonna change thing for Intel's fortunes unless K8L is a flop. I see no chance at all of that happening. Holding your load is only profitable in certain situations ;).

K8L is not slated till H2 2007, and these are optimistic projections. And if your going to claim Core 2 is somehow now going to make NOT make a significant impact for 2 quarters, then how do you expect K8L to make an impact when it first launches? It will take AMD time as well to switch gears to K8L, as it would for Intel to switch to Core 2 Duo.

The 65nm Brisbane desktop processor is not looking to bring increased clockspeeds at the present time, and looks to be like a Newcastle to Winchester transistion. To cut cost but no clockspeed ramping from the start of the process. It's not likely AMD will ramp clockspeed right when the clockspeed is introduced.

The server market has importance, but you don't ignore the desktop and mobile market either. The server market especially the 4P and up system also represent the lowest volume. So AMD is looking to lose market share because they aren't going to be as competitive as Intel in the large marketshare areas.

Ha, Core 2 Duo will stop the bleeding and continually regenerate Intel overtime. K8L is not that close.
 

coldpower27

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2004
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Originally posted by: Spinne

In the long run (> 0.5 - 1 yr), the C2D doesn't sound as daunting to me as the performance numbers would suggest. The K8 architecture itself is sound. The fact that the C2D architecture resembles the K8 architecture (atleast to me from what I've read at Anandtech and X-Bit Labs) reinforces that belief. Improvements to the K8 architecture such as increasing the number of execution units (have 4-5 complex units or 3 complex + 2 simple), widening data paths etc.. should allow it to superscede the C2D architecture. This may take a year or so to implement at worst. Naive as I am (so please feel free to correct me), what needs to be done to the K8 seems akin to what ATI did to the R520 to turn it into the R580 i.e. push numbers up and increase the performance of each unit slightly. This, I feel, is because while the C2D architecture may be revolutionary for Intel, comming after Netburst, it is more evolutionary for AMD and it is the direction that I'd have expected them to take to counter Tejas, had that Netburst design made it to the NewEgg warehouse.

The improvements for K8 won't happen until the release of K8L which is basically a Mid 2007 product quite some time away from now. Not to mention by that timeframe I would expect Intel to have some performance improvements of it's own for Conroe derivatives.

Core 2 Duo is likely to maintain it performance lead till the arrival of K8L where it can most certainly be questioned.
 

Henny

Senior member
Nov 22, 2001
674
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AMD's going to get a real spanking in the marketplace with Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom.

That means they'll need to cut price. However AMD's achilles heel is their manufacturing. Intel will have over half their products on 65 nm before AMD will have their first 65 nm product out. (learning curve is everything in this business). Intel also has much more manufacturing prowess then AMD. One of Intel's major 300mm fabs produces more output then all of AMD combined.

For the last several years AMD has had superior designs that could make up for their manufacturing weakness. With inferior designs and and lagging manufacturing it could be a real challenge for them.

However AMD has survival embedded into their culture and they're agile and innovative. When Intel is on top they get arrogant, complacent, and underestimate AMD. By the time they get the wakeup call they're in panic mode. I doubt that part of Intel culture will ever change.

Now the other factor is the PC OEM's. They will never let Intel get too big or AMD get too small. There will always be forces at work to keep the market competitive.

Ruiz is a much better CEO then Sanders ever was. I also think that Otellini is a much better CEO then Barrett ever was.

Bottom line is that Intel and AMD will play leap frog back and forth for the forseeable future IMHO.

However right now my portfolio is going long on Intel and short on AMD.

 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
AMD will survive just fine. Yes, the C2D chips will outperform the K8 chips for a few months, but AMD will slash prices to move their inventory.

By the time you see C2D chips in mass quantities, the K8L will be on the market.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,956
2,670
126
Not yet, but will they be? Yes.

They better get on the ball. Perhaps a merger with another company might help.