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Is access to potable water a right?

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Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Please, by all means go drink some water from the ocean. After you nearly die, maybe you'll feel safer drinking from a river or lake. If that doesn't kill you, maybe you'll understand that people with engineering degrees do a lot of shit that keeps your sorry ass alive.

Fuck you very much. It's not like you can't purify sea water to be drinkable.


http://www.wikihow.com/Turn-Salt-Water-Into-Drinking-Water

Oh wow, you mean I don't need an engineer to make water drinkable? I am astounded. I guess I can keep my sorry ass alive without some pretentious douchebag, such as yourself.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Fuck you very much. It's not like you can't purify sea water to be drinkable.


http://www.wikihow.com/Turn-Salt-Water-Into-Drinking-Water

Oh wow, you mean I don't need an engineer to make water drinkable? I am astounded. I guess I can keep my sorry ass alive without some pretentious douchebag, such as yourself.
Really, you don't see that an engineer has already:
1. ascertained the metallurgical methods required to produce a decent pan
2. drilled, contained, and pipelined natural gas directly to your house (or done the equivalent for an electric stove by extracting fuel, designing the power plant, and designing the electrical system)
3. design a controlled burner for natural gas
4. developed the hardware and software necessary for you to view the internet
5. developed an online guide by which even an idiot such as yourself could distill water

You're right - I'm sure you'll do just fine without us douchebag engineers. We're evil folk working for a profit at your expense, bringing you such evils as running water, indoor heating, transportation, and other rubbish. Or, you could simply man up and admit that you can't distill water nearly as cheaply as it's currently delivered to your home. That would require a modicum of humility and rational thought regarding cost analysis, so I won't wait up.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Really, you don't see that an engineer has already:
1. ascertained the metallurgical methods required to produce a decent pan
2. drilled, contained, and pipelined natural gas directly to your house (or done the equivalent for an electric stove by extracting fuel, designing the power plant, and designing the electrical system)
3. design a controlled burner for natural gas
4. developed the hardware and software necessary for you to view the internet
5. developed an online guide by which even an idiot such as yourself could distill water

You're right - I'm sure you'll do just fine without us douchebag engineers. We're evil folk working for a profit at your expense, bringing you such evils as running water, indoor heating, transportation, and other rubbish. Or, you could simply man up and admit that you can't distill water nearly as cheaply as it's currently delivered to your home. That would require a modicum of humility and rational thought regarding cost analysis, so I won't wait up.

But I am sure we could distill and deliver water for a fraction of what one of those F-35's costs, but that will never happen because every person that has a hand in this shit thinks they are Albert fucking Einstein and should be paid like Warren fucking Buffet. But hey, let's keep fighting wars and spending trillions and not making people pay taxes....seems to be working so far.

But hey, keep being your usual fuckwad self. That is what ignore is for. I feel for your wife.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
But I am sure we could distill and deliver water for a fraction of what one of those F-35's costs, but that will never happen because every person that has a hand in this shit thinks they are Albert fucking Einstein and should be paid like Warren fucking Buffet. But hey, let's keep fighting wars and spending trillions and not making people pay taxes....seems to be working so far.

But hey, keep being your usual fuckwad self. That is what ignore is for. I feel for your wife.

You mad bro?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
6,762
126
As the faithful provide free water in exchange for the blessings of God, so too will the faithful provide free health care. So for those who know the value of God's blessings providing health care will be the biggest bargain they ever got.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
Fuck you very much. It's not like you can't purify sea water to be drinkable.


http://www.wikihow.com/Turn-Salt-Water-Into-Drinking-Water

Oh wow, you mean I don't need an engineer to make water drinkable? I am astounded. I guess I can keep my sorry ass alive without some pretentious douchebag, such as yourself.

Have you actually tried this before? I have not, but I am guessing the water would taste like shit. What they are doing is basically distillating the water. Desalination plants use reverse osmosis to remove the salt, but just doing that is not enough as the water will still taste bad. They still have to do chemical treatments (which I can't recall at the moment) to get the water to a level one would find acceptable for human consumption.

If you have access to saltwater, I would be very interested to see what you think of a cup of water using the desalination method you posted.

And of course you would run into scaling issues. You would need a huge setup to provide even just yourself with enough water to get through the day.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
You're missing the key word ...potable. All the water in the oceans doesn't matter.

Yep, potable is the key word. To make water potable, labor and resources are required. To make that newly potable water arrive at your dwelling, further labor and resources are required.

For the most part, the amount of water on earth is relatively constant, with a few exceptions like plants making glucose during photosynthesis. Anyway, the population of humans certainly is NOT constant, as well as our standard of living. As more humans populate the planet, and as more humans have easy access to water via higher standards of living, we arrive at the notion of "water scarcity". Livestock takes a huge amount of water for every pound of meat produced, and as more humans consume more meat (higher standard of living==more meat) that will also put pressure on water availability.

Someone mentioned that only the tea party would try to sell them on the notion of water scarcity, that it is some corporate propaganda. It is not.

For no other reason than the simple fact that the population of humans are increasing, but the amount of water on earth is not (for the most part). Desalination, I imagine, will play a big part in the future as to potable water supply.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,512
24
76
Prodigy1: why so mad and defensive? Unless I am mistaken, you are usually a well mannered poster. But in this thread you seem to be taking things very personally and are quite defensive.

Just curious....
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
0
76
Prodigy1: why so mad and defensive? Unless I am mistaken, you are usually a well mannered poster. But in this thread you seem to be taking things very personally and are quite defensive.

Just curious....

I'm just getting sick of all the bullshit I keep reading in ATPN. I'm starting to think a majority of the posters here are trolls trying to illicit a response, meanwhile people like me are here trying to make a difference and it diminishes the contributions some of us make.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
I think one of the themes in this thread is that public sector services don't provide true incentives for people to conserve water (whereas privatized price-to-market may). However, NYC is a shining example of conservation effort success.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/drinking_water/droughthist.shtml

In 3 decades NYC has decreased consumption of water by ~33% (both per capita and total). [1979 - 1512.4 Million gal/day, 189 gal/day per capita, 2009 - 1007.2 million gal/day, 125.8 gal/day per capita]--- all the dates from 1979 to 2009 are there so it's clearly a trend and not an anomaly during those years.

In college I took economic courses and I'm fully aware of the mathematical projection of market inefficiencies. However, I think such math sometimes glosses over the tremendous difficulty in privatizing something like public works in NYC while simultaneously ignoring the successes of public works.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,744
46,512
136
Municipalities are coming around particularly on water and doing more conservation incentives/enforcement. New meters, higher rates to fund infrastructure replacement (reduce loss from century old supply systems), and requiring developers to use high efficiency fixtures in construction.

NYC literally had no choice since the waste water treatment plants were starting to operating above capacity and just dumping the untreated overflow into the rivers was soon to become illegal. The choices were to conserve or build new treatment plants, conservation ultimately was decided to be far cheaper.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Fuck you very much. It's not like you can't purify sea water to be drinkable.


http://www.wikihow.com/Turn-Salt-Water-Into-Drinking-Water

Oh wow, you mean I don't need an engineer to make water drinkable? I am astounded. I guess I can keep my sorry ass alive without some pretentious douchebag, such as yourself.

WHOA dude. WHOA. Put away that black magic!

Making any water drinkable is easy. Though purifying it to have most trace chemicals removes would take a distillation unit, but people can easily survive off water being boiled and run through a self made water filter (Which can be done by many easy to obtain objects)

Actually, I could make a water cleaner just using items found in nature. + a fire to boil it in. Pretty easy tbh.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I think one of the themes in this thread is that public sector services don't provide true incentives for people to conserve water (whereas privatized price-to-market may). However, NYC is a shining example of conservation effort success.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/drinking_water/droughthist.shtml

In 3 decades NYC has decreased consumption of water by ~33% (both per capita and total). [1979 - 1512.4 Million gal/day, 189 gal/day per capita, 2009 - 1007.2 million gal/day, 125.8 gal/day per capita]--- all the dates from 1979 to 2009 are there so it's clearly a trend and not an anomaly during those years.

In college I took economic courses and I'm fully aware of the mathematical projection of market inefficiencies. However, I think such math sometimes glosses over the tremendous difficulty in privatizing something like public works in NYC while simultaneously ignoring the successes of public works.
I think public water companies could actually achieve good conservation by using a progression pricing scheme in which the amount I pay increases marginally for each additional increment of water I use. This will ensure cheap water for the bare essentials while charging significantly more for large volume users.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
WHOA dude. WHOA. Put away that black magic!

Making any water drinkable is easy. Though purifying it to have most trace chemicals removes would take a distillation unit, but people can easily survive off water being boiled and run through a self made water filter (Which can be done by many easy to obtain objects)

Actually, I could make a water cleaner just using items found in nature. + a fire to boil it in. Pretty easy tbh.
What are the energy costs of boiling enough water for an individual to drink for one day? It's far higher than getting it from the tap and will continue to be that way for a long time thanks to douchebag engineers.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
What are the energy costs of boiling enough water for an individual to drink for one day? It's far higher than getting it from the tap and will continue to be that way for a long time thanks to douchebag engineers.

Right because people cant create fire to boil water on an island/cave/stranded with no electricity.

Wood + sticks + Lighting unit (Match, lighter. etc.)

Also, it is called bulk processing. Big enough pot, some storage units and you can easily boil 1-2 weeks worth of water in just a little more energy than required for 1 days worth. On top of any minor water distilling set-up that isnt electronic. (Serious, give me some leaves and/or screen from a window/door, pebbles, rocks sand and gravel. Along with a 5-gal bucket. I will make you a water cleaner.)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Right because people cant create fire to boil water on an island/cave/stranded with no electricity.

Wood + sticks + Lighting unit (Match, lighter. etc.)

Also, it is called bulk processing. Big enough pot, some storage units and you can easily boil 1-2 weeks worth of water in just a little more energy than required for 1 days worth. On top of any minor water distilling set-up that isnt electronic. (Serious, give me some leaves and/or screen from a window/door, pebbles, rocks sand and gravel. Along with a 5-gal bucket. I will make you a water cleaner.)
Your estimate of energy scaling is thermodynamically incorrect. Enthalpy is a state function, so the amount of energy required is linear in the amount of water boiled. In reality, it will be worse than that as losses will increase with pot size. If you're talking about building an efficient process to distill water rather than simply putting a cauldron over a fire pit, you'll probably want to give me a call. In any case, wood isn't free either. You also have to catch the distillate in a clean container and so on. Or were you really planning to just boil sea water then drink it? If so, you'll be disappointed to know that the salt will still be there after you boil it.

As far as your ghetto water filter goes, such things work fine for removing particulate matter and for short-term filtering. Unfortunately, in the long term (i.e. over the course of hours), they become small-scale trickling filters in which bacteria grows on the filter material. That sounds great at first when you think the bacteria will clean up the water for you. Only later will you find out that the bacteria will slough and come out in your "potable" water. Good luck with that.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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bulk processing

Do you actually gain anything by "bulk processing" of distilling salt water? It's not economics. It's science. The energy required to distill 1 gallon is going to be 1/100 of the energy required to distill 100 gallons. And thanks to the unique nature of water, it takes a fair bit of energy to boil water.

Then you have all the externality of the exces.s pollution from producing useable energy for your giant distillation apparatus
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Your estimate of energy scaling is thermodynamically incorrect. Enthalpy is a state function, so the amount of energy required is linear in the amount of water boiled. In reality, it will be worse than that as losses will increase with pot size. If you're talking about building an efficient process to distill water rather than simply putting a cauldron over a fire pit, you'll probably want to give me a call. In any case, wood isn't free either. You also have to catch the distillate in a clean container and so on. Or were you really planning to just boil sea water then drink it? If so, you'll be disappointed to know that the salt will still be there after you boil it.

As far as your ghetto water filter goes, such things work fine for removing particulate matter and for short-term filtering. Unfortunately, in the long term (i.e. over the course of hours), they become small-scale trickling filters in which bacteria grows on the filter material. That sounds great at first when you think the bacteria will clean up the water for you. Only later will you find out that the bacteria will slough and come out in your "potable" water. Good luck with that.


The debate is over drinkable water. Not purified/perfect water.

And by energy, was totally going by cost aka electricity purchased to boil a pot. Enthalpy is not a function in which we purchase from companies. We purchase gas, or electricity to boil things. Most wood is easibly obtainable enough w/o cost. Just need to do work. WHich brings the original debate in, that everyone has a right to water, but if someone else has to do it for you, you will pay for convience. You can get free drinkable water with these "ghetto" survival tactics as I stated. (And by free I mean cost 0 money not energy or time, this isnt a heat transfer class)
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Do you actually gain anything by "bulk processing" of distilling salt water? It's not economics. It's science. The energy required to distill 1 gallon is going to be 1/100 of the energy required to distill 100 gallons. And thanks to the unique nature of water, it takes a fair bit of energy to boil water.

Then you have all the externality of the exces.s pollution from producing useable energy for your giant distillation apparatus

I would imagine the advantages of bulk processing would be from less energy loss to things other than boiling the water. As well as cheaper bulk energy costs.

Somehow I do not think boiling water on your stove is the most efficient method :D
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Do you actually gain anything by "bulk processing" of distilling salt water? It's not economics. It's science. The energy required to distill 1 gallon is going to be 1/100 of the energy required to distill 100 gallons. And thanks to the unique nature of water, it takes a fair bit of energy to boil water.

Then you have all the externality of the exces.s pollution from producing useable energy for your giant distillation apparatus


Salt water is much harder than "fresh" water from lakes and rivers because of the salts involved. (Since salt in water lattice will disrupt the water from boiling at normal temperature and cause it to require a few more degrees to actually boil)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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The debate is over drinkable water. Not purified/perfect water.
You grossly overestimate the difference between purified water and drinkable water. You can drink water that you put through a filter as you described, but you will quickly become very ill, possibly to the point of dying. I don't consider that "drinkable" water, but you are obviously free to disagree with me. If it were that easy, don't you think drinking water would be produced that way rather than going through the insane measures taken to purify it? Do you think engineers just sit around dreaming up ways to make processes more expensive?
And by energy, was totally going by cost aka electricity purchased to boil a pot. Enthalpy is not a function in which we purchase from companies. We purchase gas, or electricity to boil things. Most wood is easibly obtainable enough w/o cost. Just need to do work. WHich brings the original debate in, that everyone has a right to water, but if someone else has to do it for you, you will pay for convience. You can get free drinkable water with these "ghetto" survival tactics as I stated. (And by free I mean cost 0 money not energy or time, this isnt a heat transfer class)
You purchase enthalpy from companies in the form of electricity or natural gas. Your stove simply changes the inputs you buy into energy which is input into the water to boil it. And no, you can't get wood for free - at least not enough to live on indefinitely. Wood grows on land. Land is property. If someone comes into my yard and starts cutting trees down to light fires, we're going to have problems. Simply because this isn't a course on thermodynamics does not mean your ideas can defy the laws of thermodynamics: you'll find that those laws apply whether or not you think they apply to you.
 

Dannar26

Senior member
Mar 13, 2012
754
142
106
You don't deserve anything just because you exist.

Duely blundered from my thunderdolt.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I'm just getting sick of all the bullshit I keep reading in ATPN. I'm starting to think a majority of the posters here are trolls trying to illicit a response, meanwhile people like me are here trying to make a difference and it diminishes the contributions some of us make.
That could be because you're contributing horse shit. I'm simply confident enough to call you out on it because I've spent my entire adult life studying such things and can unequivocally say when you're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to point out when your opinion is at odds with reality. One day you'll wake up and realize that you don't know everything and that some people actually know things about certain topics. Some people (myself included) write theses on various water technologies. Some people spend their entire lives devising improved water production methods. I got out of the water business because onerous regulations reduced my research experience to filling out mountains of paperwork. Then you come in here with a full head of steam and little else thinking you have the answers to all of the world's problems. Sorry that calling your bluff ruined your self esteem, but I don't think that esteem was in any way warranted to begin with. You retorted with childish insults and swearing in lieu of any arguments - a great way to prove my point.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Salt water is much harder than "fresh" water from lakes and rivers because of the salts involved. (Since salt in water lattice will disrupt the water from boiling at normal temperature and cause it to require a few more degrees to actually boil)

You'd have to have a LOT of salt per gram of water to significantly (greater than 1C increase.

Using some math you learn in high school chemistry, you can actually calculate the change deltaT=iKm, where deltaT is the increase in temperature, K is the molal boiling point in degC*kg/mol (0.51 for water), and m is the molality in mol/kg, you'll find that 1 mole of sodium chloride (table salt, 58.44 g = 1 mol, which is a lot of salt) and 2 liters of water will have an increase of 0.5 degC.

And regardless, it's largely irrelevant. You gain nothing by 'bulk processing' seawater to make drinkable water through distillation. It takes a little more energy than boiling fresh water, but there is still a linear increase in energy requirement to go from 1 gal to 100 gal. That's to say nothing of energy expenditure of gathering fuel, pollution, effects of cutting down trees, energy loss to the environment when you're boiling....
 
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