IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

[Matt1970]

The fact that you still continue to peddle this BS despite showing you the timeline of events is what boggles the mind. Facts your kryptonite and you've proven to avoid them at all costs.

I love your cries of "guilty until proven innocent" though, it shows just how much you believe in America and it's values (hint: you don't).

Now unless you have some actual facts to add to the descussion, why don't you run off and cry to your mom some more about people calling you names!


Lol!

Just keep drinking your kool aid son.

 

[Bowfinger]

Wow, Werepossum has really lost it.

According to him we have an individual who knows that all the emails she has been writing on her work email account are part of a conspiracy with the White House to attack their political enemies but was so stupid as to do that on government computers anyway, but so savvy as to be able to engineer an irrecoverable hard drive crash to eliminate the evidence that appeared normal to the techs, only days after a letter was sent to someone else that primarily dealt with other issues, in anticipation of congressional subpoenas years later. Then, the rest of the IRS got in on the game and cancelled contracts, etc, all to hide these evil,conspiratorial emails.

Considering apparently she had the foresight to destroy things years in advance, why didn't she just use a private account or other means of communication that aren't so easily tracked or archived? By werepossum's conspiracy theory she has to be simultaneously a criminal mastermind and a moron.

It's funny that when confronted with contrary information he posts a huge list of links from right wing sites, not a single one of which has any actual evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever, and then declares that anyone who disagrees with his conclusion to be stupid or in on the conspiracy. Classic werepossum. He can't be wrong, everyone else is just evil.

Yep, and sadly it's not just Werepossum. They're putting a whole new level of crazy in wing-NUT. I especially enjoy this new "smoking gun" about suddenly cancelling the Sonasoft email archiving contract. Two days ago it was a routine IT change that nobody considered remarkable. Then one blogger tosses it into his catapult and within 24 hours it's all over the nutter bubble. Lerner loses a hard drive and this contract is suddenly cancelled!!! We got 'em!!! It's a conspiracy!!!

Never mind that it wasn't sudden. As one of Werepossum's own links points out, the contract wasn't renewed at the end of the federal fiscal year. That's completely unremarkable timing. Never mind that we don't know what the IRS switched to instead; the nutters have already decided Sonasoft was replaced with nothing, based on exactly nothing but their paranoia. I also love the theory that a Fortune 100 sized organization ($12B budget, more than 90K employees) would make a significant IT infrastructure change to cover up one disk crash, especially when just like Lerner, it was done months before anything really hit the fan. That is straight into Stewox territory, a level of delusion that denies any possibility of rational thought. This does not bode well for America.

 

[hal2kilo]

Yep, and sadly it's not just Werepossum. They're putting a whole new level of crazy in wing-NUT. I especially enjoy this new "smoking gun" about suddenly cancelling the Sonasoft email archiving contract. Two days ago it was a routine IT change that nobody considered remarkable. Then one blogger tosses it into his catapult and within 24 hours it's all over the nutter bubble. Lerner loses a hard drive and this contract is suddenly cancelled!!! We got 'em!!! It's a conspiracy!!!

Never mind that it wasn't sudden. As one of Werepossum's own links points out, the contract wasn't renewed at the end of the federal fiscal year. That's completely unremarkable timing. I also love the theory that a Fortune 100 sized organization ($12B budget, more than 90K employees) would make a significant IT infrastructure change to cover up one disk crash, especially when just like Lerner, it was done months before anything really hit the fan. That is straight into Stewox territory, a level of delusion that denies any possibility of rational thought. This does not bode well for America.

But, if we just stich all the innuendos together you get the unavoidable truthyness you to need to agree with the narative. They sure beat the horse to death over Mr. K not informing them that he had some spotty information about the number of emails found in a date range not being that emails were lost. So he's just supposed to throw out preliminary findings that the idiots can further speculate and weave into their conspiracy before real facts are determined. Yea, they are really interested in finding the truth.

 

[fskimospy]

But, if we just stich all the innuendos together you get the unavoidable truthyness you to need to agree with the narative. They sure beat the horse to death over Mr. K not informing them that he had some spotty information about the number of emails found in a date range not being that emails were lost. So he's just supposed to throw out preliminary findings that the idiots can further speculate and weave into their conspiracy before real facts are determined. Yea, they are really interested in finding the truth.

To me the amazing part is the absolute certainty that conservatives are the victims of executive sanctioned persecution. Based on remarkably little actual evidence they have decided that not only is this the truth, but that there can be no other answer and anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the evil conspiracy against him.

Whenever werepossum tries to go off on another screed about how reasonable he is and about how dishonest "proggies" are, all you need to do is look back at his ravings in threads like this. The guy is a nutcase.

 

[hal2kilo]

To me the amazing part is the absolute certainty that conservatives are the victims of executive sanctioned persecution. Based on remarkably little actual evidence they have decided that not only is this the truth, but that there can be no other answer and anyone who thinks otherwise is part of the evil conspiracy against him.

Whenever werepossum tries to go off on another screed about how reasonable he is and about how dishonest "proggies" are, all you need to do is look back at his ravings in threads like this. The guy is a nutcase.

I guess that gives them the right to treat the witness like he was Saddam pulled out of the spider hole. I think it's sad to see a committee so poorly run. Hell, I watched most of the Watergate hearings and I never saw any of the witnesses treated in the fashion of the government witness last night.

 

[xBiffx]

One of the biggest bombshells out of last nights hearing:

In a stunning admission under questioning from Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, Koskinen divulged that the IRS made no effort to recover Lerner’s email archive from the six month backups after her initial computer problems in June of 2011.

So now we have testimony that the IRS has broken federal law. Also, its very suspicious the timing of the crash, the removal of the backup management company, and the fact that no effort was taken to recover lost emails. So much willful disregard for the law. Guess we can all take a break next April.

 

[Jhhnn]

One of the biggest bombshells out of last nights hearing:



So now we have testimony that the IRS has broken federal law. Also, its very suspicious the timing of the crash, the removal of the backup management company, and the fact that no effort was taken to recover lost emails. So much willful disregard for the law. Guess we can all take a break next April.

False premises, as usual. You claim that the IRS has broken what you, a layman, claim to be the correct interpretation of federal law.

Have you considered that the interpretation was constructed to support the ongoing conspiracy theory?

Obviously not.

The whole thing is a remarkable example of truthiness. It's true because you believe it, and, of course, you believe it because it's true. Well, at least your desire for it to be true overwhelms all other considerations.

 

[hal2kilo]

One of the biggest bombshells out of last nights hearing:



So now we have testimony that the IRS has broken federal law. Also, its very suspicious the timing of the crash, the removal of the backup management company, and the fact that no effort was taken to recover lost emails. So much willful disregard for the law. Guess we can all take a break next April.

The IRS had switched from Lotus Notes to Microsoft Exchange, thus their services were no longer required.

That clown from Florida tried to make something of that last night. Mr. K answered it straight up.

Keep on stitching.

 

[Jaskalas]

...and the fact that no effort was taken to recover lost emails.

The tapes are kept for 6 months. Then re-used, aka written over. There's nothing to search for or recover at that point.

 

[xBiffx]

False premises, as usual. You claim that the IRS has broken what you, a layman, claim to be the correct interpretation of federal law.

Have you considered that the interpretation was constructed to support the ongoing conspiracy theory?

Obviously not.

The whole thing is a remarkable example of truthiness. It's true because you believe it, and, of course, you believe it because it's true. Well, at least your desire for it to be true overwhelms all other considerations.

Not much to interpret the language in the law in question is plain. The Federal Records Act (started in 1950 and amended many times since) requires all federal employees to keep any records pertaining to their official duties. Furthermore is stipulates that each agency provide general and specific requirements regarding how records should be created and maintained at that agency. As such, the IRS has such a requirement/policy which I link before, but I'll link again for the truly useless in here.

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part1/irm_01-010-003.html

That document requires there to be a backup printout. This didn't happen and was a breach of the Federal Records Act requiring the IRS to maintain its records according to policy. Also, one might say that the server is the backup in most cases. Although that may be the case, and was likely the case here. The fact that no effort was taken to recover said backups when a problem occurred with original records is also a violation of the law seeing is how there was effectively no backup at that point, which again is required under their own policy which in turn is mandated by the Federal Records Act

 

[xBiffx]

The tapes are kept for 6 months. Then re-used, aka written over. There's nothing to search for or recover at that point.

The timeframe in question is within the six months. They had the tapes and the email backups available, they just didn't do anything about it.

So, Chaffetz simply asked, “When Lois Lerner figured out on June 13th (2011) that her computer crashed, and there have been emails showing that she was going to great lengths to try to get that recovered, why didn’t they just go to that six month tape?”

“Because that six month tape is a disaster recovery tape that has all of the emails on it and is a very complicated tape to actually extract emails for, but I have not seen any emails to explain why they didn’t do it, so it would be difficult, but I don’t know why,” replied the IRS boss.

 

[xBiffx]

The IRS had switched from Lotus Notes to Microsoft Exchange, thus their services were no longer required.

That clown from Florida tried to make something of that last night. Mr. K answered it straight up.

Keep on stitching.

Then why aren't the emails in question moved to an exchange server? Doesn't really matter if they were or weren't. The backups were there, but nothing was ever done to retrieve them which is the point. And in either event, IRS policy dictates that there be a paper printout.

5. Please note that maintaining a copy of an email or its attachments within the IRS email MS Outlook application does not meet the requirements of maintaining an official record. Therefore, print and file email and its attachments if they are either permanent records or if they relate to a specific case.

 

[hal2kilo]

The tapes are kept for 6 months. Then re-used, aka written over. There's nothing to search for or recover at that point.

Welcome to IT on a shoe string budget.

 

[xBiffx]

Welcome to IT on a shoe string budget.

That's not an excuse for no print out. Lack of money is never an excuse when it comes to the IRS. But good luck trying that next April.

"I'm sorry I had no money left to fix my computer so all my tax records are gone." I would like to see people try this, and my guess is this next tax season, some will.

 

[hal2kilo]

That's not an excuse for no print out. Lack of money is never an excuse when it comes to the IRS. But good luck trying that next April.

"I'm sorry I had no money left to fix my computer so all my tax records are gone." I would like to see people try this, and my guess is this next tax season, some will.

Whine to congress about how the IRS is forced to break the supposed record retention law due to lack of funds.

It's pretty obvious if you watched the hearings that the IRS is sadly underfunded to provide what you wish.

 

[Jaskalas]

The timeframe in question is within the six months. They had the tapes and the email backups available, they just didn't do anything about it.

Good catch.

 

[xBiffx]

Whine to congress about how the IRS is forced to break the supposed record retention law due to lack of funds.

It's pretty obvious if you watched the hearings that the IRS is sadly underfunded to provide what you wish.

Typical liberal response. When you see a perceived problem, throw money at it. Especially corruption, that one especially is easily tackled with money.

Maybe if the IRS wasn't off breaking laws and illegally targeting particular groups, they would have more money left to do what they are actually commissioned to do? Seems like they had plenty of money when it came to law breaking.

 

[TerryMathews]

It's amazing the lengths you all will go to in order to white wash the actions of the IRS.

Logically, its insane for an agency to not maintain records for at least 7 years if in turn it may deal with cases that are that old.

How could they ever hope to disprove claimed communication between a tax examiner and a tax payer if they don't maintain their own records?

 

[hal2kilo]

It's amazing the lengths you all will go to in order to white wash the actions of the IRS.

Logically, its insane for an agency to not maintain records for at least 7 years if in turn it may deal with cases that are that old.

How could they ever hope to disprove claimed communication between a tax examiner and a tax payer if they don't maintain their own records?

So what other function should the IRS stop doing to have the proper IT infrastructure you demand?

 

[Attic]

Then why aren't the emails in question moved to an exchange server? Doesn't really matter if they were or weren't. The backups were there, but nothing was ever done to retrieve them which is the point. And in either event, IRS policy dictates that there be a paper printout.

We don't need to argue down to minuscule levels of what the IRS statue was or wasn't or if they broke laws. The deception from the IRS is simple, "We tried to recover the emails".

It's common sense. If the IRS wanted to recover the emails, as would be the case in a hard drive crash, then there obviously were ways to successfully recover the emails. The sleight of hand taking place is making the recovery of a hard drive into a monumental undertaking. It's not, it's quite easy unless the drive has been intentionally destroyed. In this case the tapes are 1 option, the obvious other option is that given bad sectors do not destroy the recoverability of a hard drive, but rather just cause it to crash; Option 2 is you just recover the hard drive contents using software built for that purpose as techs do millions of times every year.

We're left with the simple and damning common sense understanding that if the drive wanted to be recovered, it simply would have been.

Therefore the drive did not want to be recovered, because it wasn't.

I realize given it's common sense, that those opposing it are just playing games, but fortunately in this case it appears clear enough that most Americans get it. The only truly unfortunate thing i'm seeing is that folks are resigning to just how corrupt the government is with a "what can you do about it, governments gonna corrupt" which is worse than the IRS covering up information in this scandal.

If we added this lie from the IRS to the pile of lies the government has given out and demanded as truth since the 60's we'd be clearly of the understanding that this behavior is more of the same, the real shame is the folks demanding lies (while knowing it to be a lie) be esteemed as truth for whatever reasons they have.


Cliffs: The emails were intentionally lost, that is clear to anyone with a shred of common sense who has been paying attention to this scandal.

 

[TerryMathews]

So what other function should the IRS stop doing to have the proper IT infrastructure you demand?

Stop auditing every 501 with tea party in the name?

 

[TerryMathews]

We don't need to argue down to minuscule levels of what the IRS statue was or wasn't or if they broke laws. The deception from the IRS is simple, "We tried to recover the emails".

It's common sense. If the IRS wanted to recover the emails, as would be the case in a hard drive crash, then there obviously were ways to successfully recover the emails. The sleight of hand taking place is making the recovery of a hard drive into a monumental undertaking. It's not, it's quite easy unless the drive has been intentionally destroyed. In this case the tapes are 1 option, the obvious other option is that given bad sectors do not destroy the recoverability of a hard drive, but rather just cause it to crash; Option 2 is you just recover the hard drive contents using software built for that purpose as techs do millions of times every year.

We're left with the simple and damning common sense understanding that if the drive wanted to be recovered, it simply would have been.

Therefore the drive did not want to be recovered, because it wasn't.

I realize given it's common sense, that those opposing it are just playing games, but fortunately in this case it appears clear enough that most Americans get it. The only truly unfortunate thing i'm seeing is that folks are resigning to just how corrupt the government is with a "what can you do about it, governments gonna corrupt" which is worse than the IRS covering up information in this scandal.

If we added this lie from the IRS to the pile of lies the government has given out and demanded as truth since the 60's we'd be clearly of the understanding that this behavior is more of the same, the real shame is the folks demanding lies (while knowing it to be a lie) be esteemed as truth for whatever reasons they have.


Cliffs: The emails were intentionally lost, that is clear to anyone with a shred of common sense who has been paying attention to this scandal.

Exactly. Our government is effectively playing "the dog ate my homework".

Ridiculous.

 

[HomerJS]

BREAKING NEWS!

Missing emails during an investigation has been invented by the Obama administration.

 

[Jhhnn]

This just keeps on getting better:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/irs-head-face-flogging-lost-emails-24267625

I liked this snarky comment;

Well, yeh, of course, but it's important to understand that the usual suspects left the realm of reason long ago & function at the level of what they want to believe, what they desire.

Politically, they're wearing beer goggles all the time.

Their leadership understands them the way a pimp understands his whores or the way a dive bar owner understands his alky customers. It's psychopathic exploitation.

 

[fskimospy]

Or simply that getting emails off the backup tapes was considered too onerous to be worth it at the time and so people didn't push for it. Nobody cared about the emails until things came up later. Like it or not, that's fairly normal functioning for anyone who has ever worked in a large bureaucracy such as the IRS (or many private companies).

The idea that someone would take this information to mean that it is certain the emails were deliberately lost has literally not a shred of common sense or has never worked in such an environment. When you combine this with the fact that many of her lost emails were in fact recoverable from the recipient's end and the extreme difficulty that would be presented by conducting an agency-wide scrubbing of emails without arousing any suspicion should also alert people's common sense as for its likelihood.

It is certainly possible that people could have undertaken such efforts, but the idea that such a thing would be certain is forehead slapping.