IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

[Bowfinger]

ACA was all it took for many Republicans to realize they had a major problem...it effectively set the precendent on how the political process was going to work moving forward with this administration.

Obama himself admitted that ACA wasn't a “smart political thing” and that it directly resulted in him being bogged down by a “toxic political environment". ACA was an incredibly divisive issue and it surprises me that Democrats aren't more honest and forthcoming in their role in creating this environment.

I don't want to get into this too much because it's way off-topic for this thread. So, two quick points. I don't think it's accurate to say the ACA set a precedent on how the process worked. It was merely a continuation of the "we'll do it our way" mindset of Congressional Republicans from the Bush 43 era. It was more of the same, though certainly not the new spirit of working together promised before the elections. Second, I agree the ACA was a train wreck, in large part because there were way too many corrupt Democrats who joined obstinate Republicans in ensuring we couldn't get a good bill to reform healthcare. I still believe that bad as the ACA is, it was a necessary first step to break the ice, to get past the "do nothing" stance and move instead to figuring out how to make it better. YMMV.

 

[PokerGuy]

Again, you live in a fantasyland.

Yes, there were articles, but notice none of them were on the front page, and they were pretty much buried. The Sterling story (as an example) was a major deal on the front pages for weeks. A story of this magnitude should be a major deal, and if it had been someone with an (R) in office I'm quite sure the media would make sure it would be a huge deal.

This is about the 100th time on here where conservatives show their cultural dedication to victimhood, declaring a media conspiracy against them.

Of course, each time someone points out how the media is biased, it's just discounted as "oh wah, mentality of victimhood". Needless to say that's complete rubbish.

When you're shown to be wrong yet again you'll just forget this ever happened and continue to cling to the idea that you're a victim.

Yes, because obviously, those evil right wing groups were the bad guys, and the innocent IRS that targeted them and stonewalled their applications were the real victims. Right? How dare those bad guys want an actual investigation and accountability, how dare they be upset when all the evidence is conveniently 'lost', how dare they want equal treatment, that's only reserved for groups the left likes.

 

[Bowfinger]

Yes, there were articles, but notice none of them were on the front page, and they were pretty much buried.

That sounds like a claim based on emotional beliefs, not fact. Can you back it up with any objective data, e.g., a study on coverage? I'm not much on dead tree news these days, so "front page" is hard for me to assess. I will say that over the life of this story, I've seen plenty of coverage on both broadcast news programs and on a multitude of legitimate news sites. I'll grant you they mostly have not given it the same breathless coverage as Fox, et al, but I see that as a sign of Fox's bias. Just as I commented a few posts up, Fox and its kin do a truly horrible job of separating fact from supposition and innuendo.

Edit: Case in point, NBC Nightly News covered the story again tonight, showing footage of the head of the IRS appearing before Congress about the missing emails.

The Sterling story (as an example) was a major deal on the front pages for weeks.

I completely agree that the mainstream media shamelessly blow "celebrity" stories like this way out of proportion. That's an apples to oranges comparison, however. The media have become lazy and greedy. Nonsense like the Sterling story requires little effort and attracts lots of eyeballs. It has nothing to do with partisan bias.

A story of this magnitude should be a major deal, and if it had been someone with an (R) in office I'm quite sure the media would make sure it would be a huge deal. ...

That's another statement of emotional speculation, not fact.

Also, a story of what magnitude? You might not know this if you rely on Fox and co., but this story so far has been a big fizzle. Based on all of the facts released so far, this was truly just a case of overworked government employees looking for a shortcut to weed through a sudden influx of potentially non-qualified non-profit applications. There are five separate investigations, and all have found zero evidence of partisan motivation for this targeting. Therefore, what you're really demanding of the media is that they join Fox in reporting innuendo. That is NOT responsible journalism.

That said, there are still many unanswered questions, and the investigations are continuing. I support this. I want to be sure we get to the whole truth. Until those investigations turn up anything new and significant, however, there's really not that much to report.

Yes, Lerner's hard drive failure sounds suspicious, and it should be investigated. But sometimes stupid stuff like that does happen, and the crash did happen well before any of these investigations started. Therefore, I don't see that it's rational to jump to the conclusion there was wrongdoing here. I'll let the investigators do their job. If there is solid evidence of partisan intent within the IRS, THEN we have a major story and heads should start rolling.

Yes, because obviously, those evil right wing groups were the bad guys, and the innocent IRS that targeted them and stonewalled their applications were the real victims. Right? How dare those bad guys want an actual investigation and accountability, how dare they be upset when all the evidence is conveniently 'lost', how dare they want equal treatment, that's only reserved for groups the left likes.

Yawn. Yet another example of people reacting emotionally based on misinformation and innuendo. One, it has been shown the IRS targeted both left- and right-wing groups. Two, I'm not aware of anyone who opposes legitimate investigation ... and we already have four of them, plus Issa's clown show. This is why the story isn't nearly as big as many of you insist, because you know so many things that just aren't true. It clouds your objectivity.

 

[spidey07]

Or the more simple explanation. They knew what they were doing was illegal so they removed the evidence before they got caught. This fake hard drive crash of key people involved makes that the only logical explanation.

 

[Bowfinger]

Or the more simple explanation. They knew what they were doing was illegal so they removed the evidence before they got caught. This fake hard drive crash of key people involved makes that the only logical explanation.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you even care? What "key" people? Be specific. Who are they and what are their roles in the IRS? How are they involved in processing 501(c)(4) applications? Show us that you have even the most basic factual knowledge of whatever you're shooting off your mouth about today.

Who am I kidding?

Face it, you've already made your agenda crystal clear. The one and only thing you care about is attacking the left. That makes you wholly irrelevant to any intelligent discussion, a useless blowhard who could be replaced with a link to RNC.org. Go play.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I don't want to get into this too much because it's way off-topic for this thread. So, two quick points. I don't think it's accurate to say the ACA set a precedent on how the process worked. It was merely a continuation of the "we'll do it our way" mindset of Congressional Republicans from the Bush 43 era. It was more of the same, though certainly not the new spirit of working together promised before the elections. Second, I agree the ACA was a train wreck, in large part because there were way too many corrupt Democrats who joined obstinate Republicans in ensuring we couldn't get a good bill to reform healthcare. I still believe that bad as the ACA is, it was a necessary first step to break the ice, to get past the "do nothing" stance and move instead to figuring out how to make it better. YMMV.

When I used the word "precedent" I meant it in the context of how Democrats chose to "legislate" after gaining control of the Senate and Presidency in 2008. They made a choice. But since you seem to want to blame prior Republican behavior for subsequent Democrat behavior...please refresh my memory as to the extremely controversial legislation Republicans pushed through that was even remotely comparable to what Democrats did with ACA.

 

[Bowfinger]

When I used the word "precedent" I meant it in the context of how Democrats chose to "legislate" after gaining control of the Senate and Presidency in 2008. They made a choice. But since you seem to want to blame prior Republican behavior for subsequent Democrat behavior...please refresh my memory as to the extremely controversial legislation Republicans pushed through that was even remotely comparable to what Democrats did with ACA.

No.

If you want to argue straw men, take it to an appropriate thread and I may humor you. Or, I may remember how boring it became continually trying to have intelligent discussions with people who clearly have no interest or ability to do so.

 

[spidey07]

Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Do you even care? What "key" people? Be specific. Who are they and what are their roles in the IRS? How are they involved in processing 501(c)(4) applications? Show us that you have even the most basic factual knowledge of whatever you're shooting off your mouth about today.

Who am I kidding?

Face it, you've already made your agenda crystal clear. The one and only thing you care about is attacking the left. That makes you wholly irrelevant to any intelligent discussion, a useless blowhard who could be replaced with a link to RNC.org. Go play.

I shouldn't have to point out names and their connections to you, you should know the scandal you're saying is not a big deal. The others were key players directly in the chain of command. You prove you don't even have the most basic factual knowledge of the scandal.

 

[Attic]

Take this issue at present, immediately reverse the parties involved, imagine all the folks falling down due to the dizziness induced.

Might as well enjoy this and at least some of the hacks in office make a few on the board look like amateurs. Though we do have some impressive spin doctors, guessing well more than 4 year hats.

/removed

 

[Bowfinger]

I shouldn't have to point out names and their connections to you, you should know the scandal you're saying is not a big deal. The others were key players directly in the chain of command. You prove you don't even have the most basic factual knowledge of the scandal.

Lulz!!! You're such a phony POS, you don't fool anyone. You have no clue. You are indeed a useless blowhard. Buh bye.

 

[werepossum]

The IRS's targeting of political opponents for the administration's party and the DESTRUCTION of evidence pertaining DIRECTLY to this illegal activity, makes the IRS a criminal organization.

The non-partisan step forward to is simplify the tax code, and put the agency out of work.

I agree completely. But we'll never get even Congressional Republicans to give up their most feared weapon and most useful tool, the ability to punish or reward using the tax code. And as for Congressional Democrats, for whom the federal government is effectively their religion, the IRS is the priest caste; all shortcomings shall be described as underfunding, and all calls to abolish it as heresy, without exception.

 

[Jhhnn]

Sigh. You keep repeating that in the hope that it makes it any more true. That's nonsense. What exactly are they going to get her to testify to? The emails between her and anyone outside the FBI have been *cough* lost *cough*. What makes you think she'd need to testify to anything? She doesn't need to get immunity because she's already off the hook.



Use the tools you have... like?? I'd love to hear about all the "viable paths of inquiry" available to investigators when the IRS simply refuses to provide information, and the DOJ isn't going to lift a finger. What exactly do you think investigators can do?? Magic wand?

They have Lerner, and they have the ability to force testimony from others via immunity as well. Otherwise, they got nothin' but mud to sling.

That's what immunity does- it eliminates the possibility of self incrimination, forces testimony from recalcitrant witnesses. That's pro forma & the DoJ would be forced to prosecute for contempt should the witness refuse.

Some rather notable figures have testified under such circumstances, Ollie North among them. At that point, resistance is futile. Only if you answer the questions do you stay out of jail. Only if you just tell the truth as you know it will you be free of this mess. You cannot be prosecuted for any answers you give. For you, it's over, no matter what else happens & you'll be glad of it.

Until Repubs use that to their advantage, they're just posturing, churnin' up another layer of conspiracy.

 

[boomerang]

As for the IRS hard drive "crash". I admit i find it very hard to believe. also makes me wonder about who they have in charge of IT for the IRS.

Whomever is in charge was reminded who signs their paycheck.

 

[spidey07]

Lulz!!! You're such a phony POS, you don't fool anyone. You have no clue. You are indeed a useless blowhard. Buh bye.

So you don't know there are 6 others involved who also had crashed hard drives?

Might want to google so you don't look like such an ignorant fool.

 

[Jhhnn]

So you don't know there are 6 others involved who also had crashed hard drives?

Might want to google so you don't look like such an ignorant fool.

I don't know that. Link us up. It's your contention, so support it.

 

[First]

This Politico article clarifies that apparently the "Emails lost on six other crashed IRS HDDs" claim by Repubs leaked Monday was bullshit?

A sometimes feisty Koskinen accused Camp and the committee of jumping to false conclusions when it didn’t have all the facts.

For example, on Monday Republicans on the panel issued a press release after meeting with agency officials, asserting that the IRS had lost the emails of six other employees involved in the controversy who had computer crashes. They highlighted former IRS Commissioner chief of staff Nikole Flax, another key figure.

That’s wrong, Koskinen said. Flax had two IRS computers, including one for travel, so the IRS emails are intact as far as they know. Another one of the six listed had their computer crash just a couple months ago in 2014.

“Those press releases with regard to Nicole Flax were inaccurate and misleading and it demonstrates why we’ll provide this committee a full report … when it is completed,” he said. “We are not going to dribble out the information and have it played out in the press.”

So sad how political this has become. A serious issue becomes red meat for die-hard conservative pols.

 

[werepossum]

This Politico article clarifies that apparently the "Emails lost on six other crashed IRS HDDs" claim by Repubs leaked Monday was bullshit?

So sad how political this has become. A serious issue becomes red meat for die-hard conservative pols.

At this point, I don't think anyone really believes the IRS is doing anything other than cherry-picking which emails it wants to share with Congress and which it wants to be "lost".

 

[First]

At this point, I don't think anyone really believes the IRS is doing anything other than cherry-picking which emails it wants to share with Congress and which it wants to be "lost".

I'm sure there are people out there who will take Repubs at their word on the IRS (and Benghazi, for that matter), despite multiple conspiracy theories that haven't panned out.

 

[Jhhnn]

At this point, I don't think anyone really believes the IRS is doing anything other than cherry-picking which emails it wants to share with Congress and which it wants to be "lost".

Heh. And I don't think Congressional Repubs have any credibility when they leak the information they do get as lies & false attribution.

One of the allegedly suspicious hard drive crashes occurred in 2014 according to information they received. They knew the claim about it to be false when they made it.

It's Dick Fucking Cheney & Kenneth Starr all over again. None of it matters because the truth doesn't matter to the people tasked with finding it. They have what they want- muck for the gullible masses of True Believers.

 

[fskimospy]

At this point, I don't think anyone really believes the IRS is doing anything other than cherry-picking which emails it wants to share with Congress and which it wants to be "lost".

Your idea of what everyone thinks is very strange.

 

[Attic]

Your idea of what everyone thinks is very strange.

I'd disagree.

How much of cohesive understanding do most of us have of this whole thing? We hear different talking points about who was targetted, how much groups were targetted, was it intentional, deserved, ect..


Decent timeline outlined here that if we remove partisan politics should present a very clear picture of what was taking place.

Here

Bit of a long read. It begins with,

In May 2013, it was learned that from April 2010 to April 2012, the Internal Revenue Service had placed on hold the processing of applications for tax-exempt status that it had received from hundreds of organizations with such presumably conservative indicators as “Tea Party,” “Patriots,” or “9/12” in their names. During that period, the IRS approved only four applications from conservative groups while green-lighting applications from several dozen organizations whose names included the likely left-leaning terms “Progressive,” “Progress,” “Liberal,” or “Equality.”

In February 2014, it was further learned that of the
already-existing nonprofits that were flagged for IRS surveillance (including monitoring of the groups’ activities, websites, and any other publicly available information), 83% were conservative. And, of the groups that the IRS selected for audit, 100% were conservative.

This section of Discover The Networks provides a timeline of this illegal, blatantly partisan practice by the IRS.

Touching on hard drive crash,

June 3, 2011: David Camp, Republican Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, sends a letter to then-IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman inquiring about a report that the IRS has been conducting an unusually large number of audits of conservative 501(c)(4) groups and taxpayers who have donated money to them. Lawmakers will subsequently send at least seven more letters asking the IRS to address complaints that conservative groups applying for tax-exempt status are being subjected to burdensome screening. (Source and Source)

Lerners drive "crashed" a few days later.

And was reported to the investigation roughly a week ago.


Equality of targetting between political affiliation,

April 7, 2014: A new report by by aides to Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, reveals that IRS agents have testified before Congress that -- contrary to recent claims by Democrats -- the agency’s political targeting did not apply to liberal/left organizations. A Daily Caller story explains:

IRS agents testified before Oversight that ACORN groups were scrutinized because the agency thought they were old organizations applying as new ones. Emerge America was scrutinized for potential “improper private benefit.” No evidence exists that the IRS requested additional information from any Occupy Wall Street group.

“Only seven applications in the IRS backlog contained the word ‘progressive,’ all of which were then approved by the IRS, while Tea Party groups received unprecedented review and experienced years-long delays. While some liberal-oriented groups were singled out for scrutiny, evidence shows it was due to non-political reasons,” according to the Oversight staff report....

“[T]he Administration and congressional Democrats have seized upon the notion that the IRS’s targeting was not just limited to conservative applicants,” the report states. “These Democratic claims are flat-out wrong and have no basis in any thorough examination of the facts. Yet, the Administration’s chief defenders continue to make these assertions in a concerted effort to deflect and distract from the truth about the IRS’s targeting of tax-exempt applicants.”

“[T]here is simply no evidence that any liberal or progressive group received enhanced scrutiny because its application reflected the organization’s political views,” the report stated.

Given the polarization of folks on the left right of the political divide, it's not surprising to see spin from both sides on this issue. Still disappointing to see such blatant harassment by a government agency against individuals/groups end up at it's current state. I'm not viewing this as a lefty vs righty battle, it's a government run amok and abusing its powers against individuals. It's perhaps a shame it wasn't done against leftist groups if only to have served a better chance of crushing government overreach and corruption which is clearly shown in this IRS scandal and remains a threat going forward.

 

[CitizenKain]

So if a drive dies in a computer at work, should I take that as proof that someone is hiding something? Or that mechanical devices occasionally die. Why is this something that rightwingers can't figure out, its not that complicated.

 

[Jhhnn]

Touching on hard drive crash,



Lerners drive "crashed" a few days later.

And was reported to the investigation roughly a week ago.

Correlation is not causation, remember? It's merely convenient fodder for the slime machine. I'm sure that the very important people whine to the IRS over something, anything on a regular basis. I'm equally sure that the IRS mostly blows it out their ass, too.

Actual "investigation" did not begin until many months later. Just because a letter was sent doesn't mean that the alleged conspirators instantly jumped through their assholes to cover their tracks. But it does make for another conspiracy theory experience, huh?

 

[thraashman]

At this point, I don't think anyone really believes the IRS is doing anything other than cherry-picking which emails it wants to share with Congress and which it wants to be "lost".

The only information that is being cherry-picked is which partial truths and which complete lies the GOP decides to release to the press. (hint, most of it is utter lies)

 

[TerryMathews]

So if a drive dies in a computer at work, should I take that as proof that someone is hiding something? Or that mechanical devices occasionally die. Why is this something that rightwingers can't figure out, its not that complicated.

should you find it suspect if that user has also violated the data retention and backup policies?