IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
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there is still a requirement by law for certain standards of record keeping to be met

what law? what are those requirements? what records? are you talking about email retention policies? im sorry but i am not aware of any "law" that says you have to keep x number of months/years of email. i have spoken to other exchange admins about their email retention policy and most of them are 90 days and thats it. After 90 days email is deleted.
 
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xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
what law? what are those requirements? what records? are you talking about email retention policies? im sorry but i am not aware of any "law" that says you have to keep x number of months/years of email. i have spoken to other exchange admins about thier retention policy and most of them are 90 days and thats it. after 90 days email is deleted.

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part1/irm_01-010-003.html

All federal employees and federal contractors are required by law to preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the agency. Records must be properly stored and preserved, available for retrieval and subject to appropriate approved disposition schedules.

Please note that maintaining a copy of an email or its attachments within the IRS email MS Outlook application does not meet the requirements of maintaining an official record. Therefore, print and file email and its attachments if they are either permanent records or if they relate to a specific case.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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From what I found is that for stock brokers the SEC requires 3 years of e-mail records retention available on request. So the IRS might have to follow similar rules. This subject is very complicated because many different government agencies have different rules and regulations. The general rule for tax returns is 10 years of receipts. E-mail may be a little different. At a community college we keep class records or transcript info forever other records we keep for 6 years due to government reporting procedures.

I archive all my business related e-mail.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
This keeps getting more and more curious. The fact that several people are willing to admit to being a party to several violations of federal laws regarding record keeping is telling. There is likely something to hide within some of these "lost" emails. And please don't tell me someone can't be thrown in jail for accidents or equipment failures. Even if the computer did die, there is still a requirement by law for certain standards of record keeping to be met (i.e. printouts and backups). Having only one copy of a record is well below that standard.
They know they are currently untouchable and that even if the next President is a Republican, historically new Presidents and Congresses have ignored the things on which they campaigned. It's a big "fuck you" to the GOP - and the nation - stating that they are beyond the law with barely enough credibility for even the most mindless foamy leftist to pretend to buy.

what law? what are those requirements? what records? are you talking about email retention policies? im sorry but i am not aware of any "law" that says you have to keep x number of months/years of email. i have spoken to other exchange admins about their email retention policy and most of them are 90 days and thats it. After 90 days email is deleted.
Knowing posted this. http://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/bulletins/2011/2011-03.html

In addition, Cleta Mitchell served the attorneys both private and government representing the key IRS figures. Her letter spells out some of the laws broken. Her letter is reprinted here in its entirety. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/06/cleta-mitchell-to-the-irs-answer-this.php

There is absolutely no doubt that this is willful and intentional spoilation. Assuming this stands - and I believe it will - then we're no longer a nation of laws, period. We've entered a post-Constitutional period marked not by the rule of law, but by the rule of man.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Assuming this stands - and I believe it will - then we're no longer a nation of laws, period. We've entered a post-Constitutional period marked not by the rule of law, but by the rule of man.

Yep, he who has the power, makes the rules as they see fit at any given moment.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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There is absolutely no doubt that this is willful and intentional spoilation. Assuming this stands - and I believe it will - then we're no longer a nation of laws, period. We've entered a post-Constitutional period marked not by the rule of law, but by the rule of man.

We should ALL be upset with what is going on, but the left has done a great job at painting it as some made up right-wing scandal. It is shameful.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
We should ALL be upset with what is going on, but the left has done a great job at painting it as some made up right-wing scandal. It is shameful.

Heh. Repubs make mountains out of molehills for propaganda purposes. Once they have a mountain, they avoid all information that might reveal it as a molehill.

Forcing Lerner's testimony under a grant of immunity is the prime example. Otherwise, they're just claiming lack of evidence to be evidence in their usual conspiracy theory fashion.

Regardless of the truth or fiction of the lost emails, that line of inquiry is closed. Honest investigators would open another rather than just cast suspicion & innuendo about the one they lost. Where do they go from here, or is the opportunity to rave all they ever wanted?

The answer is obvious.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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Forcing Lerner's testimony under a grant of immunity is the prime example. Otherwise, they're just claiming lack of evidence to be evidence in their usual conspiracy theory fashion.

Yeah, just like those missing emails are just the usual conspiracy theory fashion right? ;) What exactly makes you think they can compel Lerner to testify to if they can't get the IRS to cooperate and provide information? If they grant her immunity, what exactly would stop her from not disclosing anything, the evidence to be used against her just magically gets lost.

Honest investigators would open another rather than just cast suspicion & innuendo about the one they lost.

Oh sure, when critical information just magically and conveniently gets "lost" , I'm sure investigators will just "open another avenue". Are they supposed to just make up evidence? They can't do anything when the IRS simply refuses to cooperate, and obummer's DOJ refuses to do anything.

Like I said, you're just one of the throngs cheering for this to just blow over because they were supporting your team, not realizing what this does to everyone (not just the other team).
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,579
12,677
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what law? what are those requirements? what records? are you talking about email retention policies? im sorry but i am not aware of any "law" that says you have to keep x number of months/years of email. i have spoken to other exchange admins about their email retention policy and most of them are 90 days and thats it. After 90 days email is deleted.

Actually, all I know is that per government contracts we are required to keep certain records for so many years at different points in the execution of the contract but I don't think it has to be email per se.

Also, as a government contractor, if some of the contractors had pulled some of the same stuff I've seen the government do, specifically regarding shifting of resorces from one project to another, the contractor would be in jail.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Yeah, just like those missing emails are just the usual conspiracy theory fashion right? ;) What exactly makes you think they can compel Lerner to testify to if they can't get the IRS to cooperate and provide information? If they grant her immunity, what exactly would stop her from not disclosing anything, the evidence to be used against her just magically gets lost.



Oh sure, when critical information just magically and conveniently gets "lost" , I'm sure investigators will just "open another avenue". Are they supposed to just make up evidence? They can't do anything when the IRS simply refuses to cooperate, and obummer's DOJ refuses to do anything.

Like I said, you're just one of the throngs cheering for this to just blow over because they were supporting your team, not realizing what this does to everyone (not just the other team).

All conspiracy theory, all the time, 24/7/365. Along with as much obfuscation as possible.

Lerner's testimony is the only potential avenue of investigation left, so Repubs probably should get it, huh?

There's only one way to get it, so I'd suggest that they have at it. Unless, of course, an open sore serves their purposes better than a healed wound, which I'm convinced it does.

Lerner is a retired mid level bureaucrat, small potatoes in the greater Washington milieu. This imbroglio is the only cloud hanging over her head. Telling the truth under a grant of immunity makes it go away, forever, so it's highly unlikely she'd do anything else regardless of her role.

Make up evidence? That's the essence of making a mountain out of a molehill, Issa's specialty, the essence of all contrived right wing scandals.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why would she take immunity? They have no indictable leverage on her to compel immunity. You don't take immunity when they got nothing. Doh.

I assure you they got those emails conveniently lost she would have. Now with "lost" emails case gets buried.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
thanks. i was asking from more of the backend admin role of archiving and email retention.
From Cleta Mitchell's served letter:

Late Friday, the IRS apparently advised the Ways & Means Committee that the IRS has “lost” Lois Lerner’s hard drive which includes thousands of Defendant Lerner’s e-mail records. However, several statutes and regulations require that the records be accessible by the Committees, and, in turn, must be preserved and made available to TTV in the event of discovery in the pending litigation. Those statutes include the Federal Records Act, Internal Revenue Manual section 1.15.6.6 (which refers to the IRS’s preservation of electronic mail messages), IRS Document 12829 (General Records Schedule 23, Records Common to Most Offices, Item 5 Schedule of Daily Activities), 36 C.F.R. 1230 (reporting accidental destruction,) and 36 CFR 1222.12. Under those records retention regulations, and the Federal Records Act generally, the IRS is required to preserve emails or otherwise contemporaneously transmit records for preservation.

Therefore, the failure for the IRS to preserve and provide these records to the Committees would evidence either violations of numerous records retention statutes and regulations or obstruction of Congress.

Federal courts have held, in the context of trial, that the bad faith destruction of evidence relevant to proof of an issue gives rise to an inference that production of the evidence would have been unfavorable to the party responsible for its destruction. See Aramburu v. The Boeing Co., 112 F.3d 1398, 1407 (10th Cir. 1997). The fact that the IRS is statutorily required to preserve these records yet nevertheless publicly claimed that they have been “lost” appears to evidence bad faith. 18 U.S.C. § 1505 makes it a federal crime to obstruct congressional proceedings and covers obstructive acts made during the course of a congressional investigation, even without official committee sanction. See, e.g., United States v. Mitchell, 877 F.2d 294, 300–01 (4th Cir. 1989); United States v. Tallant, 407 F. Supp. 878, 888 (D.N.D Ga. 1975).

Further, by letters dated September 17, 2013, TTV provided notice to counsel for the individual IRS Defendants in this litigation. The “Individual Defendants” are: Steven Grodnitzky, Lois Lerner, Steven Miller, Holly Paz, Michael Seto, Douglas Shulman, Cindy Thomas, William Wilkins, Susan Maloney, Ronald Bell, Janine L. Estes, and Faye Ng. TTV’s September 17, 2013 correspondence reminded you and your clients of the Individual Defendants’ obligation “not to destroy, conceal or alter any paper or electronic files, other data generated by and/or stored on your clients’ computer systems and storage media (e.g. hard disks, floppy disks, backup tapes) or any other electronic data, such as voicemail.” We identified the scope as encompassing both the personal and professional or business capacity of your clients and involving data “generated or created on or after July 15, 2010.” See Attached Letters to Ms. Benitez and Messrs. Lamken and Shur.

As the D.C. District Court has found, “[a] party has a duty ‘to preserve potentially relevant evidence . . . “once [that party] anticipates litigation.”’” Zhi Chen v. District of Columbia, 839 F. Supp. 2d 7, 12 (D.D.C. 2011) (internal citations omitted). In fact, “[t]hat obligation ‘runs first to counsel, who has a duty to advise his client of the type of information potentially relevant to the lawsuit and of the necessity of preventing its destruction[,]’” and “also extends to the managers of a corporate party, who ‘are responsible for conveying to their employees the requirements for preserving evidence.’” Id. (internal citations omitted).

By letter dated September 25, 2013, Ms. Benitez acknowledged receipt of our “litigation hold” letter, and vociferously objected to our having the temerity to send such a letter, “rejecting” our characterization of documents to be preserved. Indeed, Ms. Benitez, you indicated that you took great offense at having been put on notice to preserve and maintain documents related to the issues of this litigation. You further advised however, that you would continue to advise “your clients as appropriate and, as always, will abide by my legal and ethical obligations.” Attached Response of Ms. Benitez.

Note in particular that not only is the IRS required by law as Ms Mitchell points out to retain these messages, but these records were specifically detailed as pursuant to an ongoing legal action, which is a whole 'nother level of legal requirements to retain. Note also that it is not only Ms Lerner's emails, but those of several other people involved in this scandal. Not only has the IRS gone rogue as the BATFE before it, but it too has absolutely no perceived need to even slap a coat of lipstick on the pig. Given the recent behavior of the EPA and "Justice" and now even the U.S. Patent Office, the question is not so much how much of the federal government is putting itself above the law, but rather is any of the federal government still sound.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
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Note also that it is not only Ms Lerner's emails, but those of several other people involved in this scandal. Not only has the IRS gone rogue as the BATFE before it, but it too has absolutely no perceived need to even slap a coat of lipstick on the pig.

I predict they get away with it. Even if you get an evidentiary presumption that the emails would have shown wrongdoing by the IRS, so what? Are you going to fine the IRS? Fire a director that already retired?

It's possible these emails may have also identified members of Congress or white house staff that were somehow involved or knew about the IRS targeting, but I don't think voters will presume that to be true because the evidence disappeared. Heck, a lot of people won't even be willing to make the presumption that the IRS did something wrong and deliberately hid the evidence.

By claiming the emails are gone you get minimal news-attention from the mass media, then liberals can go back to whining about the witch-hunt based on zero evidence and quietly ignore the fact the lack of evidence is based on the fact that the liberals refuse to provide it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Why would she take immunity? They have no indictable leverage on her to compel immunity. You don't take immunity when they got nothing. Doh.

I assure you they got those emails conveniently lost she would have. Now with "lost" emails case gets buried.

Gawd. Immunity isn't something she can "accept" but rather something forced upon her to coerce testimony. She cannot invoke her fifth amendment rights under a grant of immunity. Refusal to testify would invoke an honest contempt of Congress charge rather than the bogus one currently in place.

That's one of the lamest attempts to excuse Repub refusal to actually investigate ever created.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
By claiming the emails are gone you get minimal news-attention from the mass media, then liberals can go back to whining about the witch-hunt based on zero evidence and quietly ignore the fact the lack of evidence is based on the fact that the liberals refuse to provide it.

Wrong. Repubs refuse to obtain evidence as shown by their disinterest in forcing Lerner's testimony. They don't want answers- they just want muck.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
Wrong. Repubs refuse to obtain evidence as shown by their disinterest in forcing Lerner's testimony. They don't want answers- they just want muck.

That is flat-out 100% a liberal's refusal to provide evidence.

Republicans want answers, they just don't want to have to give immunity to people who are at least partially responsible and refused to give answers after waiving the fifth amendment right.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Gawd. Immunity isn't something she can "accept" but rather something forced upon her to coerce testimony. She cannot invoke her fifth amendment rights under a grant of immunity. Refusal to testify would invoke an honest contempt of Congress charge rather than the bogus one currently in place.

That's one of the lamest attempts to excuse Repub refusal to actually investigate ever created.

I didnt realize you could force her to testify in that fashion. If true - now I see where you are coming from.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
That is flat-out 100% a liberal's refusal to provide evidence.

Republicans want answers, they just don't want to have to give immunity to people who are at least partially responsible and refused to give answers after waiving the fifth amendment right.

Lerner has not been shown to be responsible in any way, nor did she waive her fifth amendment rights. Those are both propaganda constructs useful to Issa & his minions.

What Repubs don't want is to finalize the investigation. Regardless of the outcome, they'd lose a rich source of muck mining. It's all conspiracy theory all the time, just the way they like it.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
From Cleta Mitchell's served letter:



Note in particular that not only is the IRS required by law as Ms Mitchell points out to retain these messages, but these records were specifically detailed as pursuant to an ongoing legal action, which is a whole 'nother level of legal requirements to retain. Note also that it is not only Ms Lerner's emails, but those of several other people involved in this scandal. Not only has the IRS gone rogue as the BATFE before it, but it too has absolutely no perceived need to even slap a coat of lipstick on the pig. Given the recent behavior of the EPA and "Justice" and now even the U.S. Patent Office, the question is not so much how much of the federal government is putting itself above the law, but rather is any of the federal government still sound.

Yep. If the average citizen didn't keep records as required by the IRS, we would be looking at jail time.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
nor did she waive her fifth amendment rights

Lerner didn't plead not-guilty, she provided testimony, under oath, claiming innocence. Specifically, in pertinent part, she testified:

I have not done anything wrong. I have not broken any laws. I have not violated any IRS rules and regulations, and I have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee.
She waived the 5th amendment with regard to the subject matter of those affirmative statements of fact and is now subject to cross-examination.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,746
17,401
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Lerner didn't plead not-guilty, she provided testimony claiming innocence. Specifically, in pertinent part, she testified:



She waived the 5th amendment with regard to the subject matter of those affirmative statements of fact and is now subject to cross-examination.

No sorry, at the very least this isn't as clear cut as you or anyone on any side thinks it is.

And as had already been mentioned, her attorney offered to share her answers to the committee’s questions via a proffer (no immunity was asked for at the time). So it is a fact that Issa does not want answers.

You should feel dirty for even believing that.