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IRS investigating liberal Calif. church

BoomerD

No Lifer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060916/ap_on_re_us/anti_war_sermon_1

"LOS ANGELES - The Internal Revenue Service has ordered a prominent liberal church to turn over documents and e-mails it produced during the 2004 election year that contain references to political candidates.

The IRS is investigating whether All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena violated the federal tax code when its former rector, Rev. George F. Regas, delivered an anti-war sermon on the eve of the last presidential election.

Tax-exempt organizations are barred from intervening in political campaigns and elections, and the church could lose its tax-exempt status.

Rev. Ed Bacon received a summons Thursday ordering the church to present any politically charged sermons, newsletters and electronic communications by Sept 29.

Bacon was ordered to testify before IRS officials Oct. 11. He said he will inform his roughly 3,500 congregants about the investigation at Sunday's services, and will seek their advice on whether to comply.

"There is a lot at stake here," Bacon said. "If the IRS prevails, it will have a chilling effect on the practice of religion in America."

An IRS spokesperson declined comment on the investigation.

In a sermon two days before the 2004 election, Regas did not urge parishioners to support President Bush or challenger John Kerry but was critical of the Iraq war and Bush's tax cuts, Bacon said in an interview last November when the investigation was announced.

"He explicitly said, 'I am not telling you how to vote.' That is the golden boundary we did not cross," he said.

All Saints has a long history of social activism, dating back to World War II, when its rector spoke out against the internment of Japanese Americans. Regas, who headed the church for 28 years before retiring in 1995, was well-known for opposing the Vietnam War, championing female clergy and supporting gays and lesbians in the church.

The IRS has revoked a church's charitable designation at least once. A church in Binghamton, N.Y., lost its status after running advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy before the 1992 presidential election."



OK, while I think this is a good thing, as churches SHOULD stay out of politics, when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda? LOTS of churches do this, and there were a couple of stories of church members being kicked out of their churches for supporting Kerry in the last election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-07-church-politics_x.htm

Sounds to me, like they need to be a bit more equitable in this kind of enforcement...
 
Originally posted by: BoomerD
OK, while I think this is a good thing, as churches SHOULD stay out of politics, when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda? LOTS of churches do this, and there were a couple of stories of church members being kicked out of their churches for supporting Kerry in the last election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-07-church-politics_x.htm

Sounds to me, like they need to be a bit more equitable in this kind of enforcement...
You're right, churches should not be political activists groups. You're wrong about the enforcement thing. I don't think this situation warrants any investigation. Being in a church doesn't forbid you from having an opinion.

I think this is a very slippery slope. Where would it end? The church in question opposes war and tax cuts. You could just as easily extend that to any church that involves itself in other controversial issues. (Protesting at abortion clinics is the example that comes immediately to mind). Would running a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen eventually be enough to warrant an investigation by the IRS and loss of tax exempt status?

The standard for something like this needs to be set extremely high. I really think the example would have to be so egregious that any person, even a person of faith, would admit that the church is openly campaigning for a candidate. (An official endorsement in the church bulletin, campaign signs all over, a sermon specifically endorsing a candidate...)

All that said, my personal opinion is that a church is a place to worship. Social commentary and politics needs to be left at the door.
 
Originally posted by: jrenz
when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda?

When they start violating the law.

You mean like supporting a particular political candidate and/or political agenda? This is not exactly a rare thing on the righty side of religion, and there are a lot of stories of Republican churches going farther than this liberal one...some going so far as to kick out parishoners who voted for Kerry in 2004 (which in one case resulted in numerous Republicans also leaving in protest, proving that not all Republicans are big jackasses). How many of THEM is the IRS going after?
 
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: BoomerD
OK, while I think this is a good thing, as churches SHOULD stay out of politics, when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda? LOTS of churches do this, and there were a couple of stories of church members being kicked out of their churches for supporting Kerry in the last election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-07-church-politics_x.htm

Sounds to me, like they need to be a bit more equitable in this kind of enforcement...
You're right, churches should not be political activists groups. You're wrong about the enforcement thing. I don't think this situation warrants any investigation. Being in a church doesn't forbid you from having an opinion.

I think this is a very slippery slope. Where would it end? The church in question opposes war and tax cuts. You could just as easily extend that to any church that involves itself in other controversial issues. (Protesting at abortion clinics is the example that comes immediately to mind). Would running a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen eventually be enough to warrant an investigation by the IRS and loss of tax exempt status?

The standard for something like this needs to be set extremely high. I really think the example would have to be so egregious that any person, even a person of faith, would admit that the church is openly campaigning for a candidate. (An official endorsement in the church bulletin, campaign signs all over, a sermon specifically endorsing a candidate...)

All that said, my personal opinion is that a church is a place to worship. Social commentary and politics needs to be left at the door.

You sure about that? After all, a BIG party of religious faith is how you behave when you're just going about your daily life. I suppose it depends what you mean by social commentary, but a sermon about how "Jesus told us to help the poor, so why aren't you doing it?" delivered to a bunch of Republicans would not be out of line, IMHO. I do agree though that churches should NOT be in the business of endorsing particular candidates or political ideologies. Every single church that did so during the 2004 election should be fined an amount proportional to the taxes they should have paid that year...and my feeling is that a lot more righties will be complaining than lefties. Hell, even the church in the OP said you should vote for who you want...a viewpoint not shared with many of their religious peers on the right.
 
What about when a church tells its parishoners that they should not vote for candidate X because cadidate X is not pro-life?
 
Originally posted by: her209
What about when a church tells its parishoners that they should not vote for candidate X because cadidate X is not pro-life?

That's endorsing a candidate. Had the church's only goal been to endorse the idea of being pro-choice, thye would simply have endorsed the IDEA, how you vote based on that view should be obvious and/or left up to the parishoner.
 
They should tax all Churches,Temples. Mosques no matter which end of the political spectrum they are on. Let them use their charity work as write offs.
 
I dont care what side the Church opposed or supported. The simple fact of the matter is that they violated the law and took government funding while simultaneously participating in politics.

If any church did the same thing in support of the republicans, I'd want them prosecuted as well!

So, go forth and find a church doing so for the other side and only if THAT case is ignored will your grievance have any merit whatsoever. And if such an event should take place, I'll be there right next to you screaming to condemn the IRS for their hypocricy.
 
but you see, the logic being applied here stipulates that because our constitution is based on "fundamental christian values", if you're endorsing any political philosophy that promotes those values you are supporting the constitution and therefore cannot be violating the law. :roll:

however, if you violate the "rule of righteous indignation" as practiced by the ultra christian conservatives that have yank in the current administration, then woe unto you, you commie pinko false-god satan worshiper you. because if you're not up to their level of god worshipping in your everyday life, then you are clearly an agent of the devil and must be punished through the auspices of any governmnet agency at their disposal :disgust:

edit - spl
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I dont care what side the Church opposed or supported. The simple fact of the matter is that they violated the law and took government funding while simultaneously participating in politics.

If any church did the same thing in support of the republicans, I'd want them prosecuted as well!

So, go forth and find a church doing so for the other side and only if THAT case is ignored will your grievance have any merit whatsoever. And if such an event should take place, I'll be there right next to you screaming to condemn the IRS for their hypocricy.

You should be already - a very large number of churches stepped well over the line in previous election campaigns, and will do so again. In large part these were southern evangelical churches which tend to be more demanding of their congregations, and more in line with GOP social policy. However, there were ertainly churches plugging for the Democrats as well.

In any case, the church under investigation right now is one of countless others that should be; it's being investigated to make a point, and it is highly unlikely that the political affiliation is unrelated to the point being made.
 
In any case, the church under investigation right now is one of countless others that should be; it's being investigated to make a point, and it is highly unlikely that the political affiliation is unrelated to the point being made
i sincerely hope you're right. :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: BoomerD
OK, while I think this is a good thing, as churches SHOULD stay out of politics, when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda? LOTS of churches do this, and there were a couple of stories of church members being kicked out of their churches for supporting Kerry in the last election.

Here is an answer for you.
"In 1998, Americans United urged the IRS to review the Coalition?s partisan political activities over the decade its tax-exempt status was pending. The following year, the IRS revoked The Coalition?s provisional tax-exemption."

Not quite the same thing as going after one church, but it has been done before.
 
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
You should be already - a very large number of churches stepped well over the line in previous election campaigns, and will do so again. In large part these were southern evangelical churches which tend to be more demanding of their congregations, and more in line with GOP social policy. However, there were ertainly churches plugging for the Democrats as well.

In any case, the church under investigation right now is one of countless others that should be; it's being investigated to make a point, and it is highly unlikely that the political affiliation is unrelated to the point being made.

Let us not forget the tendency of black churches to drum up support for Democrats. Both sides do it, and there is nothing wrong with it.
As long as people go to church politicians will follow them looking for votes, nothing wrong with that, as long as churches don't abuse the whole tax exempt thing.
 
Here is a question: Do you really believe in the Concept of separation of church and state?

If the Church has to stay out of the Political arena or running of the State, then does not also the State have to stay out of the business of running a Church?

Maybe the IRS is violating Separation of Church and State by interfering in the running of a Church.




I tend to agree that is wrong for any church to endorse a party or a candidate for public office.

However, it is totally permissible for a church to have an opinion on the aspects of political topics or some issue coming up for a vote. Freedom of speech is not curtailed by the separation of church and state. For instance a policy statement on the Gay agenda, abortion or some other topic like the death penalty is perfectly permissible. Also if a chuch chooses to publish how public officals voted on certain topics that is a matter of public record.

Lets look at an example. We just had a vote on legislation for a difinitive definition of marriage, sometimes referred to as the Gay Marriage Ban. If a church wanted to provide its patrons with a list of who voted for or against it, that would be acceptable. Nothing wrong with publishing how your elected officials voted on any legislation came up for a vote. This is just a matter of public record.

A religious organization typically teaches about things like what is considered morally acceptable. So if they want to condemn certain activities of politicians then I would consider that acceptable. The Catholic church often comes out on certain issues or refursed to offer communion or do any sacraments or allow burials on their property or allow any types of blessings. In St Louis the leadership in the Catholic Church have in the recent past refused to offer certaind Politicans the Eucharest in Mass.

When politicians become so radical that Americans with traditional beliefs and standards can no longer accept them, then perhaps it is time for them to realize that they no longer represent a large percentage of the population.
 
Read my original post...WHY is it acceptable for the IRS to investigate a "liberal church" for this, yet they ignore much worse political activity from "conservative churches"?
IF they are going to do this, it should be applied to ALL churches...OR none at all...
 
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: BoomerD
OK, while I think this is a good thing, as churches SHOULD stay out of politics, when does the IRS start going after churches for supporting the Repuglican agenda? LOTS of churches do this, and there were a couple of stories of church members being kicked out of their churches for supporting Kerry in the last election.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-05-07-church-politics_x.htm

Sounds to me, like they need to be a bit more equitable in this kind of enforcement...
You're right, churches should not be political activists groups. You're wrong about the enforcement thing. I don't think this situation warrants any investigation. Being in a church doesn't forbid you from having an opinion.

I think this is a very slippery slope. Where would it end? The church in question opposes war and tax cuts. You could just as easily extend that to any church that involves itself in other controversial issues. (Protesting at abortion clinics is the example that comes immediately to mind). Would running a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen eventually be enough to warrant an investigation by the IRS and loss of tax exempt status?

The standard for something like this needs to be set extremely high. I really think the example would have to be so egregious that any person, even a person of faith, would admit that the church is openly campaigning for a candidate. (An official endorsement in the church bulletin, campaign signs all over, a sermon specifically endorsing a candidate...)

All that said, my personal opinion is that a church is a place to worship. Social commentary and politics needs to be left at the door.

You do realize churches influence in such issues as abolishists and civil rights?
 
Originally posted by: bctbct
I will be all for taking politics out of religion the day they take religion out of politics.

It sounds like you're saying something you think is very clever.

Religion and politics are only an issue because at it's root, organized religion is at least 90% about politics and power and has little if anything to do with spirituality.
 
I've been inside a right wing church when they violated this same law. They handed out flyers during the '96 election about Clinton. I didn't think much of it at the time, but I have a feeling if they broaden their search, they'll find craploads of violations on both sides.

Hell I'll tell ya what church: San Jacinto Church of Christ at Line, and Mississippi in Amarillo, TX
 
I didn't know about these Tax consequences.

Back in Oct 2004 when I attended Catholic church down in New Orleans they preached that it would be a sin if anyone voted for Kerry.
 
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