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Ireland's senator rips apart Israel in parliament

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eskimospy said:
Don't forget that in this case the Irish have been illegally occupying the UK for half a century, cleansing areas of British people and settling their own in violation of the Geneva Conventions, committing numerous war crimes, engaging in collective punishment, etc, etc.

Quite the change for the Irish, huh!?

I will never understand why people can't grasp that both sides are horrible people and that one of the two sides wields the martial power here. One of the big reasons israel can act as badly as it does is that it knows it has useful idiots back in the US that will back it no matter what it does.
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The Palestinian end-game (no more Israel) does not serve US needs. The Israeli end-game (no more Palestinians) does. Is it really so baffling that the "useful idiots" don't want to support a population of poor, ethnic, Muslims with ties to terror organizations all over the world?
 
Nebor said:
The Palestinian end-game (no more Israel) does not serve US needs. The Israeli end-game (no more Palestinians) does. Is it really so baffling that the "useful idiots" don't want to support a population of poor, ethnic, Muslims with ties to terror organizations all over the world?
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That's silliness. The Palestinian end game of no more Israel would never happen. The Israeli end game of no more Palestinians can't happen in a way that isn't extremely damaging to US foreign policy in the region. That's why the US doesn't actually support the Israeli goal of no more Palestinians. So yes, the useful idiots in the US that blindly support Israel are damaging US interests.

This isn't rocket science.
 
eskimospy said:
That's silliness. The Palestinian end game of no more Israel would never happen. The Israeli end game of no more Palestinians can't happen in a way that isn't extremely damaging to US foreign policy in the region. That's why the US doesn't actually support the Israeli goal of no more Palestinians. So yes, the useful idiots in the US that blindly support Israel are damaging US interests.

This isn't rocket science.
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At least we both agree that it's a simple situation.
 
Brovane said:
Maybe Britain needs to start randomly firing rockets into Ireland so the Senator can appreciate more what the Israeli's have to deal with.
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If you had any inkling of historical British/Ireland relations you would know the Irish know exactly how the Palestine people feel.
 
I know I'm going to get flamed to hell for saying so, but at some point Israel really does need to take heavy international criticism seriously or else it really will start to have serious material consequences.

Maybe the right solution is for the UN and in particular the nations strongly condemning Israel to somehow take care of Hamas themselves. Let Israel do nothing now and sit back and see how they take care of it.

Not that that would actually happen.
 
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X-post from the other thread:

Another weird thing i've noticed, ATPN has become a COMPLETE shithole (even more so than after all the cheering for Palestinian genocide from the neo-con crew), but on other forums and reddit, i don't see this anywhere. Hell, i've even come to agreement with Libertarians that what Israel is doing is disgusting and we shouldn't be funding their murder machine. Even the israeli subreddit doesn't have that kind of vitriol against the Palestinians, hell some even have shown sypmathy to the Palestinian civilians. How the flying fuck did ATPN attract the lowest scum of rightwing dipshit humanity? Literally every other forum has more level headed people, even the ones that support the current Israeli occupation.
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Anyone have an answer to this? This is fucking baffling.
 
Phokus said:
X-post from the other thread:



Anyone have an answer to this? This is fucking baffling.
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The equation is simple for the Palestinian people. They elected a group who has sworn to destroy Israeli. This same group has no problem using Palestinian people as human shields. They should not be surprised when Israeli responds. They control there own destiny. If Hamas would swear off rocket attacks and swear off calling for the destruction of Israeli they wouldn't get bombed. Also if they swore of violence they wouldn't have such a restrictive blockade on them.
 
If this Irish guy was a politician in America, he wouldn't even make it to the city council. His last name would have been changed to anti semite. He would be considered worse than a child molester. All because he isn't towing the line
 
Brovane said:
Maybe Britain needs to start randomly firing rockets into Ireland so the Senator can appreciate more what the Israeli's have to deal with.
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You should probably read up a bit on the IRA and the terrorism/occupation Ireland and the British dealt out to each other.
 
Phokus said:
Hey Dominion, i just noticed something kinda ironic, you compare P&N to Stormfront in your sig, yet you cheer on genocide against the Palestinians. Have you ever experienced cognitive dissonance ever?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost...&postcount=155
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You idiots don`t let up!!

When she spoke what she considered to be the truth she got flamed for it and has modified what she says but you still don`t let up!!

There are people on both sides that have called for the destruction of Israel or the destruction of the people who call themselves Palestinian......yet when it comes right down to it...we all know that will never happen and should never happen!

Get rid of Hamas and I would bet there very well could be a 2 state solution....

then again let me ask this question --

Okay so lets get this straight -- We have a country that has no navy, no air force, no special forces, not really an army, no tanks, no place to hide, k-mart rockets, yet they want to fight a war with Israel which is a powerhouse, I don't get it. they built (Gaza) tunnels to surprise the enemy, something like the Trojan horse concept. now who is advising these people to wage war.
 
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Phokus said:
X-post from the other thread:



Anyone have an answer to this? This is fucking baffling.
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You and the fool you quote haven't the first clue of what "genocide" even means. That term is thrown around so often these days it has become virtually meaningless.

Any reasonable definition of "genocide" is that it is an attempt to physically exterminate an entire ethnic group. There are 4,000,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has killed what, 7,000 over the past 20 years? If they're trying to exterminate them, they might at least kill more than their annual birthrate.

This is why it's pointless to debate the anti-Israel left. You have nothing but emotional hyperbole offered as broad declaratory statements and virtually no facts to back any of it up.
 
eskimospy said:
Don't forget that in this case the Irish have been illegally occupying the UK for half a century, cleansing areas of British people and settling their own in violation of the Geneva Conventions, committing numerous war crimes, engaging in collective punishment, etc, etc.

Quite the change for the Irish, huh!?

I will never understand why people can't grasp that both sides are horrible people and that one of the two sides wields the martial power here. One of the big reasons israel can act as badly as it does is that it knows it has useful idiots back in the US that will back it no matter what it does.
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Israel doesn't purposefully place its own civilians in harms way in order to pursue a propaganda war. I'm not buying your facile moral equivalence. The truth is, regardless of normative comparisons, the two sides are just flat out qualitatively different in every conceivable way. You couldn't possibly find two opposing sides which are more different.

What do you propose as a course of action for Israel? Hamas isn't going to stop firing rockets no matter what Israel does, and the Palestinians elected them. Would you cede territory rather than retaliate? Send a message that any time you want territorial concessions, just fire rockets. What else should they do?
 
woolfe9998 said:
Israel doesn't purposefully place its own civilians in harms way in order to pursue a propaganda war. I'm not buying your facile moral equivalence. The truth is, regardless of normative comparisons, the two sides are just flat out qualitatively different in every conceivable way. You couldn't possibly find two opposing sides which are more different.

What do you propose as a course of action for Israel? Hamas isn't going to stop firing rockets no matter what Israel does, and the Palestinians elected them. Would you cede territory rather than retaliate? Send a message that any time you want territorial concessions, just fire rockets. What else should they do?
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Who tried to equate the two morally? They are both guilty of war crimes, just different ones.

The first thing I would suggest israel should do is to stop the occupation.
 
eskimospy said:
Who tried to equate the two morally? They are both guilty of war crimes, just different ones.

The first thing I would suggest israel should do is to stop the occupation.
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You did. You said "both sides are horrible people" - an extreme over-simplification and generally beneath your level of discourse. And you're repeating the equivalency here in a different form by minimizing the distinction.

Are the number of "war crimes" which certain groups have accused Israel of - assuming for the sake of argument that most of these accusations are true -unusual given the nature, scope and duration of the conflict? I don't think they are. A certain number of individual war crimes will happen in any military conflict.

The real question is why is there a conflict to begin with. That is a far more complicated question which your "horrible people" formulation does nothing to address.

By "stop the occupation," I assume you mean to pull out of the West Bank entirely? What do you suppose happens after they do this? The Palestinians will form a peaceful state? What should Israel do the next time it gets attacked?

I'm not opposed to your solution. I want Israel out of those territories and I want to see a stable two-state solution. I just don't think it's that simple for them to unilaterally pull out without any assurances regarding security. The only reason these rockets haven't killed many Israelis is because Israel constantly degrades their capability and prevents more sophisticated rocket technology from getting into Gaza. Iron Dome will not protect them from rockets which are far more accurate and long range than they have now.

If they have a state and all blockades and other restrictions are removed, with all the support they have from Iran and other states they will eventually be in a position to kill lots of Israelis. What will stop them from attacking Israel? They'll just have so much gratitude that Israel "ended the occupation" that they'll just stop trying? This conflict goes back roughly 100 years. It existed long before the Israel's presence in the West Bank and Gaza, and will continue to exist long after.
 
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