Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Discussion

[jman19]

Originally posted by: cashman
Guys, have you ever thought of what Iraqis did to our POWs? Do you really think they treat them nicely? I seriously doubt it, and I can guarantee you that many of our POWs died by Iraqis.

I do have a problem with the torture though our GIs are doing to these POWs. All it is doing is bringing us down to their level, scum. And we are a lot better than that.

What the Iraqi's did to our POW's really isn't relevant to the situation at all... you even said so yourself in your next few sentences.

 

[Danman]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: cashman
Guys, have you ever thought of what Iraqis did to our POWs? Do you really think they treat them nicely? I seriously doubt it, and I can guarantee you that many of our POWs died by Iraqis.

I do have a problem with the torture though our GIs are doing to these POWs. All it is doing is bringing us down to their level, scum. And we are a lot better than that.

What the Iraqi's did to our POW's really isn't relevant to the situation at all... you even said so yourself in your next few sentences.

I'm trying to show a comparison here. I bet anyone twenty bucks that we had some of our POWs die in Iraqi prisons, but the media does not show that at all. They want to show the negative aspects for Bush during election time.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: cashman

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: cashman
Guys, have you ever thought of what Iraqis did to our POWs? Do you really think they treat them nicely? I seriously doubt it, and I can guarantee you that many of our POWs died by Iraqis.

I do have a problem with the torture though our GIs are doing to these POWs. All it is doing is bringing us down to their level, scum. And we are a lot better than that.

What the Iraqi's did to our POW's really isn't relevant to the situation at all... you even said so yourself in your next few sentences.

I'm trying to show a comparison here. I bet anyone twenty bucks that we had some of our POWs die in Iraqi prisons, but the media does not show that at all. They want to show the negative aspects for Bush during election time.

Uh, how our POWs are treated and how we're treating the Iraqi prisoners are very different things. The fact that our government let this go on is a HUGE problem. The reason this is portrayed in the media and what is happening on the other end isn't is because this is a big problem for our country and shows a break down in the chain of command. This isn't being done just "show the negative aspects for Bush during election time."

 

[earthman]

When more information comes out it will be clear that US troops brutalized numerous iraqi prisoners for no good reason, and that a number were murdered outright. What, if anything, iraqis did to any prisoners of ours they had (and they didn't have many) is not relevant. We are not playing gotcha back. That is not how civilized nations conduct themselves.

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

Who started what? We invaded Iraq, not the other way around. The war on Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism, they havn't caught one iraqi terrorist. All the terrorists are from the countries that are our "friends".

 

[leeboy]

Originally posted by: YellowRose
Now one more time. Just why have we not nuked this place. This Liberal Veteran wants to know.

*Cookie*

 

[Ozoned]

^

 

[Teclis2323]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Hmmm maybe those Arab Leaders like King Abdullah of Jordan should apologize. For having an inferior religion and culture, that is. That is what lead to those defilements of American bodies. Or, maybe it was inferior genetic makeup inherent in Arabs. All Arabs and all Muslims are personally responsible for what a gang of Iraqi insurgents does.

Zephyr

Go back to your backwoods KKK rally, jerk.

I love when ultra-right wingnuts claim that America is becoming "weak" because we're outraged by the terrible things our soldiers are doing to prisoners. It's not like they're trying to milk information from them. They're simply treating them as less than human, and pissing on them. It seems to me that a Real American would be strong enough to put aside his anger and treat a prisoner according to the Geneva Convention. Guess it's just a sign that the weak right-wingers are leading the way, with their denials and conspiracies. They can't even face up to mistakes...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Teclis2323

Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Hmmm maybe those Arab Leaders like King Abdullah of Jordan should apologize. For having an inferior religion and culture, that is. That is what lead to those defilements of American bodies. Or, maybe it was inferior genetic makeup inherent in Arabs. All Arabs and all Muslims are personally responsible for what a gang of Iraqi insurgents does.

Zephyr

Go back to your backwoods KKK rally, jerk.

I love when ultra-right wingnuts claim that America is becoming "weak" because we're outraged by the terrible things our soldiers are doing to prisoners. It's not like they're trying to milk information from them. They're simply treating them as less than human, and pissing on them. It seems to me that a Real American would be strong enough to put aside his anger and treat a prisoner according to the Geneva Convention. Guess it's just a sign that the weak right-wingers are leading the way, with their denials and conspiracies. They can't even face up to mistakes...

check your gauges - I think they might be broken.

CkG

 

[Format C:]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: Format C:
The saddest part of all of this is that while all the liberals and dems are having a screaming heydey playing politics with this issue, among many others, and blowing it completely out of all rational proportion they've not stopped to consider the full ramifications of their actions. After all of this hullabaloo, when given the sometimes split-second choice of kill or capture for interrogation, which do you think the troops will be more inclined to do? Now, feel free to carry on with all your hand wringing and frothing at the mouth if you wish. Know though that you're contributing to the death of more Iraqis with each outrageous assertion. Oh how distraught and full of angst I'm sure you'll all be when the new death tolls start rolling in. No doubt you'll rant and rave and wring your hands once more and curse Bush and the evil American military but we'll all know who's really to blame won't we?

You seem to be assuming that our GIs are either so stupid, or so badly trained, that they will make snap decisions to murder surrendering troops rather than capturing them as POWs (which may or may not be "for interrogation"). (And make no mistake, it is murder to kill surrendering troops.) Trust me, all American troops are well-trained on the law of war and rules of engagement (I have given this kind of training many times), and for the most part they are more than smart enough to understand.

This kind of sentiment (that is, one which appears oriented toward defending Americans and their behavior, whatever it might be) is incredibly dangerous and stupid IMO. As I said above, if we are going to engage in offensive attacks against other countries on the basis that their governments are brutal and oppressive, we can't be brutal and oppressive ourselves. Otherwise we just look like corrupt policemen.

You wrung all of that out of my perfectly clear and concise statements did you? Why does that not surprise me? Morphing a simple matter into a cataclysmic event seems to be all the rage these days.

 

[n0cmonkey]

By degrading the prisoners in the manner they did the American soldiers used sex as the weapon.

By degrading women the way the Taliban and similar cultures did, they had a war against sex.

Bush's personal vendetta against Howard Stern and similar broadcast personalities is a war against sex.

Oh the wonders of hypocracy.

Torturing people through religious means is just wrong. I wonder if the Iraqi soldiers make Christian Americans defecate on crucifixes or something...

 

[rickn]

what has disturbed me most about this situation, is that quite a few of the prisoners held are just innoocent civilians caught up in military sweeps. we are suppose to be liberating the iraqi people, not shitting and pissing on them -- or is "liberation" just an re-election buzzword for something more sinister.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Tabb
Is it over rated? Absolutely, all we see are pictures. You could say pictures are worth a thousand words, but we will never really know what really happen in the prisons. They prisoners can say anything they want to the media and they'll report. We all know how biased most of the news sources are in the middle east. It really doesnt bother me that much. None of us will ever understand the brutality of war.

This is interesting. What proof do you have that Saddam ever did what the US claims it did? You have pictures, and you have eyewitnesses. Now those same Iraqis who are eyewitnesses, and those who were subject to these tortures and the pictures are not credible enough for you? The news in the Middle East is biased? As compared to what? Fox News? Do you actually have subscription to Al-Jazeera?

You my friend, are a big hypocrit!

 

[zephyrprime]

Well according to drudge report, it looks like some unreleased photos show actual torture. Happy now?

 

[Wolfdog]

It is a sad day in the state of affairs when Bush appologists seem to have minimized what took place. While on the other hand Rumsfeld has stated that things are far worse than what has appeared so far. Its a reuters story go check it out. The Geneva convention that the US willingly signed does NOT allow for the unethical treatment of prisioners of war. Sorry to say Bush just might have screwed himself out of this election permanently by appologizing. While the soldiers responsabile have not been court marshalled at the very least. A repromand isn't nearly strong enough. It absolutely doesn't matter what Saddam did in previous years. You can't bring the past back and we are there NOW. What kind of country invades and does these kind of attrocities in the name of freedom?? As the story deepens and the real truth will ultimately comes out you are either in one of two camps. The fact that Bush appologized doesn't do anywhere enough period. The fact that Bush continues to stand by Rumsfeld means to me that he doesn't want to be reelected. Rumsfeld along with the general in charge, along with the soldiers need to be held utmost accountable and prosecuted by way of the Geneva convention. Maybe even possibly tortured and put on tv just like the Iraqi people were. Not that I would like to see Rumsfelds schlong..... In all reality anything else will be a half butt sideshow showing to the world just how well American governmnet doesn't know what true freedom and justice is. Just words on a page if this isn't taken care of.

 

[Gravity]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

You forgot "were they fed to lions?"

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Humiliated, YES.

Tortured, NO.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd much rather be urinated on than have my fingers cut off.

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion. Sure, all of this is conduct unbecoming of a United States armed service man, but if you want to talk about REAL humiliation, let's talk about those soldiers and contract workers who were killed and dragged through the streets of Falujah. Now that was humiliation!

I'm sick and tired off all these liberal whiners, crying over this spilt milk. Thanks to the liberals, this country is turning into a bunch of PC pu$$ies. It's time we woke up and grew a pair!

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

Funny because I thought the whole war was about stopping torture and abuse of the Iraqi people, not changing the executioners.

Apperently you don't value your mental state very high, thinking that you can only harm a person through physically torture.

Torture is used as an instrument of force against democracy. Torture is often designed to break the mind of strong individuals or to extract confessions. The psychological rather than the physical consequences of torture are considered to be by far the most disabling. Torture is designed to break people ? both physically and psychologically ? to provide information, extract a confession or spread fear and terror within the general population.

Examples of psychological torture include:

Witnessing the torture of those closest to one (including children).
Threats ? the victim is threatened with the torture or murder of his or her family if he or she fails to cooperate.
Mock execution ? the executioners pretend to execute the victim, for example by blindfolding him and firing shots that do not hit him.
Water that constantly falls on a specific part of the victim?s body (Chinese water torture).
Protracted isolation, often in a darkened cell, where the victim may also be denied food, water and the use of bathing and toilet facilities for long periods.
Examples of physical torture include:

Systematic blows to the head and/or body.
Submarino torture ? the victim?s head is forced into dirty water and held under to the point of asphyxiation.
Powerful electric shocks applied to, for example, the genitals.
Phalanga ? blows to the soles of the feet.
Sexual abuse, for example rape.
Confinement in a narrow cupboard or a small crate for days on end.
Hanging.
The consequences of torture include the following:

Sleeping problems
Nightmares
Lack of self-worth
Problems with memory and concentration
Shame
Chronic pain in the nape of the neck, shoulders, back and joints
Anxiety
Depression
Headache
Dizzy spells
Irritability and irascibility
Psychosis-like states
Flashbacks ? reliving of the torture while awake
Personality changes.

 

[DesolationWilliams]

killing 1000s of iraqi civilians....... damn we are sweet at "liberating"..... i would never back this war...

 

[thatsright]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Humiliated, YES.

Tortured, NO.

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd much rather be urinated on than have my fingers cut off.

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion. Sure, all of this is conduct unbecoming of a United States armed service man, but if you want to talk about REAL humiliation, let's talk about those soldiers and contract workers who were killed and dragged through the streets of Falujah. Now that was humiliation!

I'm sick and tired off all these liberal whiners, crying over this spilt milk. Thanks to the liberals, this country is turning into a bunch of PC pu$$ies. It's time we woke up and grew a pair!

I would encourage the Bush Administration to simply take the gloves off. This is war, they started it, and we should simply finish the job, no matter if that means eliminating the minority, radical extremist terrorists!

Wow Dude, you just don't get it!!!

In the Muslim world, being degraded by a woman (i.e. Being dragged on the floor in a dog collar by Pfc England) is the ULTIMATE humiliation. In the eyes of Muslim men, this 10,000X worse than being physically abused.

Second, how does what happen in Falluja with the Haliburton guards that were killed justify that it's 'okay' to humiliate/torture Iraqi prisoners. I thought that this country was beyond the ye old 'eye for an eye' crap.

Though very troubling is the total, and utter lack of supervision of the guards at the prison and the confused 'Huh's' when inquired about the chain of command. The guards were given free reign to do whatever they wanted.

What was especially troubling is that yesterday we learned that the Internal Army report about suspicious deaths @ the prison noted that there were 2 suspicious deaths @ the hands of Army Interrogators, and two outright homicides.

So GT, please don't be surprised at why the Muslim world TOTALLY and UTTERLY HATES us. Maybe they should slap a uniform back on Saddam, and let him run the country again. At least he knew how to keep the country back in line, and it was a hell of allot safer place for most Iraqi's before the 'Coalition' showed up.

Just my $0.03

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

OMG!!! This is the kind of crap Americans are hated for all over the world...

YES, humiliation IS torture...esp to these people for whom PRIDE is a major factor in their self image.

Freakin grow up and stop crowing about how great the US is and how we never do anything wrong. THese soldiers were sick bastards, no different from Saddam.

And if only "whining liberals" can see what is wrong with this picture, then I AM A LIBERAL.

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

You didn't read the army report did you? Do beatings, rape, sodomy count as torture to you?

Yes, the latter do. No, I didn't read it. I'm going off the pictures I have seen or heard discussed on the news. I've only heard of what I said: forced simulated sex acts, urination, humiliation, wearing women's underwear, etc.

Ah...so...you spouted off in ignorance.

Gotcha.

Well, maybe the media needs to get off of the sexual sensationalism and report everything...

AHHHH, the old fallback of conservatives "the media's fault" . I personally READ my news, I don't get it off the 1 minute news updates. ALL of the news was reported the first day...I saw it, maybe u should read...

 

[Defc0n6]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

"We are Muslims. We don't go naked in front of our families. But there we were, naked in front of American women and men," he said, adding that this treatment went on for about four hours as punishment for beating a fellow prisoner suspected of spying for the Americans.

Why weren't pictures of this guy beating a fellow prisoner also release?

wtf? you People are Hypocritical MORAL midgets. STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID. It hinders the INDEPENDENT Thought process within your Brain.

I think a bunch of You are just pre-programmed Spyware-esque BOTS, Automatically replying everycouple seconds to every thread.

I'm asking for equality and fairness in journalism. Why are you getting in such a huff?

By the way, if I'm ever a POW and the worst they do to me is pour cold water on me, I'll consdier myself lucky. Two or three of these events are truly attrocious, but the rest sound like mild reprimands to keep these guys from misbehaving. What do they do to you in an American prison when they find you beating a fellow prisoner? They beat your ass to a pulp with batons and point shotguns at you and threaten you with dogs.

 

[MrYogi]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

How would you feel if someone comes into your home and locks you up and commits the same kind of attrocities against you and your family?
Look before you leap, ass.

 

[earthman]

Come on now! These Iraqis were photographed having simulated sex, wearing lingerie, etc. That is NOT torture! Were they electrocuted through the testicles? No. Were they deprived of food and water? No. Were their fingers or other limbs cut off? No.

It has been revealed by more than one source that the prisoners are routinely deprived of food and water, both in Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently this practice has been ordered stopped at Abu Ghurayb after this scandal.

More than one of the accused soldiers has admitted that iraqi prisoners were routinely kept without clothes, blankets or mattresses for days on end in small concrete cells, sometimes doused with ice water and kept from sleeping for days on end. Many were beaten severely for no apparent reason. This isn't torture? Let's not forget, most of these detainees had done nothing wrong, were charged with nothing, and had nothing of value to tell their interrogators. It is rumored that there are more pictures and videos showing more severe abuse, including prisoners beaten to the point of death, females raped, etc.

Alot of people are taking the attitude "so what? The iraqis were mean to our soldiers." Well, first of all, we attacked and invaded their country, killing thousands of their people. That could be a cause for some anger. Second, does this mean that because of some incident with an american being hurt or killed, we should inflict mass suffering on random iraqis? That sounds suspiciously like what the SS did in WW2, torture and kill random civilians in retaliation for rebellion. Have we learned nothing? These same tactics lost us the Vietnam war, more than any other one thing. Now I hear people saying "nuke Iraq". Can they really have no conception of what would happen if we commited an act as atrocious as that? I am appalled by the closed-mindedness and intolerance that appears in this forum sometimes.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Originally posted by: Czar
Humiliation is a methood of mental torture

Yep! One method even 8-year-old boys on the school playground have to put up with daily!

Geez, we are getting so weak!

Go tell that to Vietnam Vet's....I'd think John Mccain would disagree with you.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..real pictures of horror...



Text

To bad Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11. Of course the people responsible for this are the same ones we buy our oil from and protect. ( a.k.a Saudi's and beloved patriot's )