Iraq vote could be delayed

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq...0,2763,1351481,00.html
Iraq's deputy prime minister has indicated for the first time that the much-heralded elections due in January could be derailed by the country's violent insurgency.
Barham Salih, in an interview with the Guardian, said the authorities were determined to hold the vote, but admitted they would have to assess the security situation nearer the time.

"Holding free and fair elections on time is an obligation that we have undertaken towards the Iraqi people," said Mr Salih.

But he added: "Nearer the time, the Iraqi government, the United Nations, the independent election commission and the national assembly will have to engage in a real and hard-headed dialogue to assess the situation."

It is the first time a senior figure in the interim government has acknowledged that the dire security situation in large parts of the country could affect the political process.

Yesterday, as US troops widened their control of the insurgent bastion of Falluja, marines found what appeared to be the mutilated body of a western woman. Only two foreign women are being held by kidnappers: Margaret Hassan, 59, the British-Iraqi director of the charity Care International, and Teresa Borcz Khalifa, 54, a Polish woman who has lived in Iraq for many years.

One officer said he was "80% sure" the body was a western woman. It was found in the street, covered with a cloth soaked in blood. In Warsaw, the Polish foreign ministry said it was seeking more information.

Last night, the Arab satellite TV network al-Jazeera, quoting unidentified sources, reported that an Islamist group has freed two women relatives of the interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, but are still holding his cousin hostage.

A previously unknown Islamist group seized the prime minister's first cousin Ghazi Allawi, 75, along with his wife and daughter-in-law in Baghdad on Tuesday.

A senior US commander said the Falluja assault was ahead of schedule. Yesterday, however, there was continued violence in other parts of the country, including Mosul in the north and Baghdad itself.

Although the elections may be weeks away, Mr Salih said he hoped that by then the violent rebellion that has gripped Iraq since America's invasion last year will have diminished.

"My hope is we will have stabilised many of the areas that have become pockets of foreign fighters and insurgents, because it is vital that every Iraqi citizen is able to exercise the basic right to choose a government that has been denied to them for so long," he said.

There is a growing concern that the minority Sunni community, from which the most extreme elements of the insurgency have emerged, will not take part in the elections. The influential Muslim Clerics Association has ordered a boycott of the vote and the Iraqi Islamic party, a mainstream Sunni political group, has pulled out of the government.

There is also the logistical problem of securing the estimated 7,000 to 9,000 polling centres across Iraq. Elections will be held for the 275-seat Iraqi parliament and for the Kurdistan regional assembly at the same time.

"Holding elections will be a great challenge," said Mr Salih, the former prime minister of the Kurdistan regional government in Sulaymaniya. "But delaying elections could be even more dangerous."

The US military said last night that 38 American sol diers had died in the week-long offensive to recapture Falluja, and 275 had been wounded.

Mr Allawi said 400 insurgents had been arrested, while one American commander told Associated Press that 1,200 insurgents had been killed.

There was still fighting in some parts of Falluja yesterday, while US and Iraqi troops went house to house through other districts looking for weapons and hidden fighters.

"The city has been seized," General John Abizaid, of US central command, said. "We have liberated the city of Fallujah." But it could still take several days of fighting to clear pockets of resistance, he said.

Soldiers from the 1st Infantry Division destroyed underground bunkers in the city's south-east used by insurgents to store medical supplies.

A convoy of food and medical supplies brought on Saturday by the Iraqi Red Crescent was not allowed to enter the city. A second Red Crescent convoy will today take food and supplies to the thousands of refugees living in often appalling conditions in villages around Falluja.

Violence persisted in other areas. Insurgents seized control of the Sheikh Fatih police station in the northern city of Mosul, and also burned down the governor's house. At least six Iraqi national guardsmen were killed and three injured.

Last night explosions and heavy gunfire echoed across central Baghdad. A rocket landed near hotels and houses used by foreign contractors and journalists, although there appeared to be no casualties.

More than a dozen insurgents attacked the Polish embassy in Baghdad with automatic weapons. No one was reported killed or wounded.

US helicopters and tanks fired at targets in Baiji, a northern city that houses Iraq's biggest oil refinery.
Freedom just may have to march a bit more slowly and cautiously. IMO, an election in January that cannot be voted on by many within Iraq will not remove the air of illegitimacy surrounding the Iraqi government.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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Well if violence is delaying the elections and the US instigates the violence maybe the solution is less US?
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
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An election in January is not fair or just to those who still have no rights or ability to campaign
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.

Like he said, wow no one saw this coming. Well no one who was listened to.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,396
6,075
126
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.
Now all Bush has to do is say that was his plan. The idiot punched the Tar Baby.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.
Now all Bush has to do is say that was his plan. The idiot punched the Tar Baby.

If it does happen, people here will be lining up saying it was all along, and tell us how wonderful a thing it is.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
The US simply does not want elections until the desired result is guaranteed. The US will continue to pound Iraq into the ground, piece by piece city after city , until the Iraqi people realize that the only way to stop the violence is to vote the way the US wants them to vote and to accept the dictates of the US.

The US has pounded the Shiites (Najaf), the Sunnis (Falluja) and now Mosul (half Kurdish) is next on the agenda.

Iraq has no other future than the one predetermined by the Bush administration. It is Hard Work, the US will Stay The Course, the President will do the Right Thing and with Determination to boot. No price is too steep for the Iraqi people to pay for their Glorious Americanized Future.

For the US nothing matters except the US agenda and that agenda dictates that the US shall remain in control of Iraq.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.
Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.
Now all Bush has to do is say that was his plan. The idiot punched the Tar Baby.
If it does happen, people here will be lining up saying it was all along, and tell us how wonderful a thing it is.
It's a Good Life
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.
Now all Bush has to do is say that was his plan. The idiot punched the Tar Baby.
If it does happen, people here will be lining up saying it was all along, and tell us how wonderful a thing it is.
And if Bush were to achieve world peace, solve the AIDS epidemic in Africa, cure cancer, and eradicate hunger and poverty throughout the world, even more people here would be lining up to say this is all a Neocon-, PNAC-, GOP-conspiracy and what a terrible thing it is. :roll:

No one is innocent here.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq...0,2763,1351481,00.html
Iraq's deputy prime minister has indicated for the first time that the much-heralded elections due in January could be derailed by the country's violent insurgency.
Barham Salih, in an interview with the Guardian, said the authorities were determined to hold the vote, but admitted they would have to assess the security situation nearer the time.

"Holding free and fair elections on time is an obligation that we have undertaken towards the Iraqi people," said Mr Salih.

But he added: "Nearer the time, the Iraqi government, the United Nations, the independent election commission and the national assembly will have to engage in a real and hard-headed dialogue to assess the situation."

It is the first time a senior figure in the interim government has acknowledged that the dire security situation in large parts of the country could affect the political process.

Yesterday, as US troops widened their control of the insurgent bastion of Falluja, marines found what appeared to be the mutilated body of a western woman. Only two foreign women are being held by kidnappers: Margaret Hassan, 59, the British-Iraqi director of the charity Care International, and Teresa Borcz Khalifa, 54, a Polish woman who has lived in Iraq for many years.

One officer said he was "80% sure" the body was a western woman. It was found in the street, covered with a cloth soaked in blood. In Warsaw, the Polish foreign ministry said it was seeking more information.

Last night, the Arab satellite TV network al-Jazeera, quoting unidentified sources, reported that an Islamist group has freed two women relatives of the interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, but are still holding his cousin hostage.

A previously unknown Islamist group seized the prime minister's first cousin Ghazi Allawi, 75, along with his wife and daughter-in-law in Baghdad on Tuesday.

A senior US commander said the Falluja assault was ahead of schedule. Yesterday, however, there was continued violence in other parts of the country, including Mosul in the north and Baghdad itself.

Although the elections may be weeks away, Mr Salih said he hoped that by then the violent rebellion that has gripped Iraq since America's invasion last year will have diminished.

"My hope is we will have stabilised many of the areas that have become pockets of foreign fighters and insurgents, because it is vital that every Iraqi citizen is able to exercise the basic right to choose a government that has been denied to them for so long," he said.

There is a growing concern that the minority Sunni community, from which the most extreme elements of the insurgency have emerged, will not take part in the elections. The influential Muslim Clerics Association has ordered a boycott of the vote and the Iraqi Islamic party, a mainstream Sunni political group, has pulled out of the government.

There is also the logistical problem of securing the estimated 7,000 to 9,000 polling centres across Iraq. Elections will be held for the 275-seat Iraqi parliament and for the Kurdistan regional assembly at the same time.

"Holding elections will be a great challenge," said Mr Salih, the former prime minister of the Kurdistan regional government in Sulaymaniya. "But delaying elections could be even more dangerous."

The US military said last night that 38 American sol diers had died in the week-long offensive to recapture Falluja, and 275 had been wounded.

Mr Allawi said 400 insurgents had been arrested, while one American commander told Associated Press that 1,200 insurgents had been killed.

There was still fighting in some parts of Falluja yesterday, while US and Iraqi troops went house to house through other districts looking for weapons and hidden fighters.

"The city has been seized," General John Abizaid, of US central command, said. "We have liberated the city of Fallujah." But it could still take several days of fighting to clear pockets of resistance, he said.

Soldiers from the 1st Infantry Division destroyed underground bunkers in the city's south-east used by insurgents to store medical supplies.

A convoy of food and medical supplies brought on Saturday by the Iraqi Red Crescent was not allowed to enter the city. A second Red Crescent convoy will today take food and supplies to the thousands of refugees living in often appalling conditions in villages around Falluja.

Violence persisted in other areas. Insurgents seized control of the Sheikh Fatih police station in the northern city of Mosul, and also burned down the governor's house. At least six Iraqi national guardsmen were killed and three injured.

Last night explosions and heavy gunfire echoed across central Baghdad. A rocket landed near hotels and houses used by foreign contractors and journalists, although there appeared to be no casualties.

More than a dozen insurgents attacked the Polish embassy in Baghdad with automatic weapons. No one was reported killed or wounded.

US helicopters and tanks fired at targets in Baiji, a northern city that houses Iraq's biggest oil refinery.
Freedom just may have to march a bit more slowly and cautiously. IMO, an election in January that cannot be voted on by many within Iraq will not remove the air of illegitimacy surrounding the Iraqi government.

40+% generally don't vote in US presidential elections. Does that make them illegitimate?

I can see you and the other anti-Bush fanatics crying foul if there's anything less than a 100% turn-out.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Ah, more blabbering from ATP&amp;N's resident village idiot.

Tell me, Rip. What's the difference between apathy and fear?
 

toastyghost

Senior member
Jan 11, 2003
971
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Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
And if Bush were to achieve world peace, solve the AIDS epidemic in Africa, cure cancer, and eradicate hunger and poverty throughout the world, even more people here would be lining up to say this is all a Neocon-, PNAC-, GOP-conspiracy and what a terrible thing it is. :roll:
That might be the case, but it's really too bad that you've just shown us how far into the immensely hypothetical one must delve to defend a pro-Bush stance these days.

Originally posted by: Riprorin
40+% generally don't vote in US presidential elections. Does that make them illegitimate?
You mean does it make the electoral process in this country illegitimate? Yes, it certainly does. This should be a total non-issue, since Bush didn't win the first time around. And before you go into some god-awful rant about how I would say something different if Gore had won under similar circumstances in 2000, I want to make it clear that I'm a civil libertarian and I think that on the whole they are both fascists. The GOP is just more overt about it.

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I can see you and the other anti-Bush fanatics crying foul if there's anything less than a 100% turn-out.
I don't know about "crying foul", but you would think that Joe Everyman (or Muhammed Everyman?) in a country that wanted democracy doled out with an iron hand by foreign nationalists so badly would care about voting a little bit more than your typical stoned community college slacker that is responsible for the terrible turnout in the US. It wouldn't hurt the Bush regime as much as you think its opponents would claim it would; it would merely prove that our continued "democratic" presence in Iraq isn't as revered by the locals as some would have you believe.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Ah, more blabbering from ATP&amp;N's resident village idiot.

Tell me, Rip. What's the difference between apathy and fear?

Okay, let me rephrase.

I can see you and the other anti-Bush fanatics crying foul if a single Iraqi voter doesn't cast a vote because he's afraid.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: conjur
Ah, more blabbering from ATP&amp;N's resident village idiot.

Tell me, Rip. What's the difference between apathy and fear?
Okay, let me rephrase.

I can see you and the other anti-Bush fanatics crying foul if a single Iraqi voter doesn't cast a vote because he's afraid.
Then your seer status needs to be revoked. I'm more concerned with entire cities or even entire cultural subdivisions within Iraq not voting.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: conjur
Ah, more blabbering from ATP&amp;N's resident village idiot.

Tell me, Rip. What's the difference between apathy and fear?
Okay, let me rephrase.

I can see you and the other anti-Bush fanatics crying foul if a single Iraqi voter doesn't cast a vote because he's afraid.
Then your seer status needs to be revoked. I'm more concerned with entire cities or even entire cultural subdivisions within Iraq not voting.

Oh, I'm sure that you'll find some reason to condemn any progress in Iraq.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
wow i bet no one saw this coming.

Those that are instigating the violence are succeeding in their political desires. To have a role in the government.

Chaos can lead to tribal feudalism and localized power.
Now all Bush has to do is say that was his plan. The idiot punched the Tar Baby.
If it does happen, people here will be lining up saying it was all along, and tell us how wonderful a thing it is.
And if Bush were to achieve world peace, solve the AIDS epidemic in Africa, cure cancer, and eradicate hunger and poverty throughout the world, even more people here would be lining up to say this is all a Neocon-, PNAC-, GOP-conspiracy and what a terrible thing it is. :roll:

No one is innocent here.


Innocence aside, which of the two (chaos) or Bush achieving any of the good above is likely to happen? The issue is reality. Reality in this case is most likely to be very ugly. It certainly hasn't been pretty so far.



 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Sunni clerics have been telling their followers it would be a sin to not participate in the election. They have an overwhelming majority and can gain control through their participation, and I think they will. Unfortunately, they still feel targeted by Shiites and will not relinquish power to them without casting a sinlge vote.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,396
6,075
126
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Sunni clerics have been telling their followers it would be a sin to not participate in the election. They have an overwhelming majority and can gain control through their participation, and I think they will. Unfortunately, they still feel targeted by Shiites and will not relinquish power to them without casting a sinlge vote.

The Sunni are the overwhelming majority of what?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Sunni clerics have been telling their followers it would be a sin to not participate in the election. They have an overwhelming majority and can gain control through their participation, and I think they will. Unfortunately, they still feel targeted by Shiites and will not relinquish power to them without casting a sinlge vote.

The Sunni are the overwhelming majority of what?
The Sunni Triangle.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
got em backwards, my bad.

The election will go forward if not in January asap. For MOST Iraqis it wil be the first chance they have ever had to vote for someone OTHER than Saddam in a LEGITIMATE election.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: toastyghost

That might be the case, but it's really too bad that you've just shown us how far into the immensely hypothetical one must delve to defend a pro-Bush stance these days.
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Innocence aside, which of the two (chaos) or Bush achieving any of the good above is likely to happen? The issue is reality. Reality in this case is most likely to be very ugly. It certainly hasn't been pretty so far.

I think you guys missed the point. The previous poster was implying that some people here will go to any length to support anything and everything Bush does, no matter how "bad" it may be. I was simply suggesting that there are just as many (if not more) people here who will denounce and condemn anything and everything Bush does, no matter how "good" it may be.