jjzelinski
Diamond Member
The way Nebor phrases it makes the US sound like a rapist. "Oh you KNOW Iraq was begging for it, it just couldn't say it out loud..."
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Iraq hints at a timeline
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The way Nebor phrases it makes the US sound like a rapist. "Oh you KNOW Iraq was begging for it, it just couldn't say it out loud..."
Lemon law
Lifer
jjzelinski makes a strange point with---I agree that the debt could be hard to collect on, but who are you to sign a contract with when one of your goals is demolishing the existing government?
Because I for one don't think GWB&co thought the entire Saddam Hussein government would collapse when Saddam was removed. And they thought that somehow a Mr. Potato head strategy was viable, remove Saddam and graft on a new head onto the existing body of government. And if the existing government remained, then they could proceed with some debathification to mollify the Shias and the Kurds, they would have a reliable army and police force to keep law and order, and civil services like water and electricity could be maintained and advanced.
But since the existing Iraqi government totally collapsed, the dumsfeld plan of going in light
turned into an unmanageable epic blunder of the unrecoverable kind. And then the blunders of Bremer slammed the door on any hope.
Because I for one don't think GWB&co thought the entire Saddam Hussein government would collapse when Saddam was removed. And they thought that somehow a Mr. Potato head strategy was viable, remove Saddam and graft on a new head onto the existing body of government. And if the existing government remained, then they could proceed with some debathification to mollify the Shias and the Kurds, they would have a reliable army and police force to keep law and order, and civil services like water and electricity could be maintained and advanced.
But since the existing Iraqi government totally collapsed, the dumsfeld plan of going in light
turned into an unmanageable epic blunder of the unrecoverable kind. And then the blunders of Bremer slammed the door on any hope.
We don't need Iraq to give us hundreds of Billions of dollars in repayment...we just need preferential priority and pricing deals worked out with them. Over the course of decades, we would be far ahead on that deal given our huge consumption of oil.
It's not a matter of Iraq paying us back...it's a matter of Iraq developing a sustainable economy (admittadly mostly oil based revenue) and then spreading that relatively free income throughout all the social classes.
None of that is even the most difficult task, nor the long term end goal we should really want to see happen as the US/West...
Chuck
It's not a matter of Iraq paying us back...it's a matter of Iraq developing a sustainable economy (admittadly mostly oil based revenue) and then spreading that relatively free income throughout all the social classes.
None of that is even the most difficult task, nor the long term end goal we should really want to see happen as the US/West...
Chuck
Lemon law
Lifer
Actually the chucky2 puts his finger on it with---It's not a matter of Iraq paying us back...it's a matter of Iraq developing a sustainable economy (admittadly mostly oil based revenue) and then spreading that relatively free income throughout all the social classes.
Unfortunately Bremer wrote the text book on how not to do that as he instead siced a small army of private carpetbagging contractors on Iraq. And the unemployed Iraqis then found employment as insurgents while the private contractors are still busy trying to loot everything not nailed down.
Unfortunately Bremer wrote the text book on how not to do that as he instead siced a small army of private carpetbagging contractors on Iraq. And the unemployed Iraqis then found employment as insurgents while the private contractors are still busy trying to loot everything not nailed down.
Lemon law
Lifer
Well there we have it, some agreement that GWB lied and Iraq really was about the oil. And we need to stay until we steal the last drop out of the Iraqi sands. And since GWB&co. still does not have Iraqi oil production up to prewar levels, we can also infer more brilliance because the longer the wait, the more valuable the Iraqi oil becomes. In just five short years GWB&co has gotten the price of oil to more than triple. And even better, the rate of increase is accelerating also. Because oil almost doubled last year.
Lets do the math. Iraq had 20 trillion in oil reserves. We get the price to double so Iraq now has 40 trillion in reserves. We therefore just made 20 trillion dollars. Now we can pay off the national debt of 10 trillion, and still have 10 trillion left. And that 10 trillion is enough to pay each man woman and child in the USA $30,000 or so.
Lets all hope we can push the price of oil up higher and higher. More brilliance from GWB&co.
Lets do the math. Iraq had 20 trillion in oil reserves. We get the price to double so Iraq now has 40 trillion in reserves. We therefore just made 20 trillion dollars. Now we can pay off the national debt of 10 trillion, and still have 10 trillion left. And that 10 trillion is enough to pay each man woman and child in the USA $30,000 or so.
Lets all hope we can push the price of oil up higher and higher. More brilliance from GWB&co.
The situation in Iraq isn't about debt- they owe us nothing. It's about extortion- extortion of the Iraqis for a sweetheart deal wrt big american oil, and about holding american troops and the public purse hostage in pursuit of those ends.
Remarkable how Bushfans still try to talk out of both sides of their mouths simultaneously, apparently unwilling or unable to reconcile their faith with the protection racket that the Bush Admin is working on the world...
The Iraqi defense minister? We pay him for his complicity, and we keep him from being strung up by all those Iraqis who begged us to invade, tear their world apart...
And, of course, it wasn't about the oil, at all, honest... as if the Bushistas or their fanbois are capable of honesty...
Remarkable how Bushfans still try to talk out of both sides of their mouths simultaneously, apparently unwilling or unable to reconcile their faith with the protection racket that the Bush Admin is working on the world...
The Iraqi defense minister? We pay him for his complicity, and we keep him from being strung up by all those Iraqis who begged us to invade, tear their world apart...
And, of course, it wasn't about the oil, at all, honest... as if the Bushistas or their fanbois are capable of honesty...
Yes, because a non-functional government and hordes of insurgents don't constitute a threat to our long term access to Iraqi oil :roll: Not to mention the fact that you can't simultaneously "liberate" people and take their oil. The Iraqis should be the ones controlling the Iraqi oil, and if we screw it up so they don't like us any more, they should have the right not to sell it to us...at least if we really "liberated" them.
Come on, man, just be honest for a second. You want us to basically do what nations have done for centuries, take what they want by force. Only you want to wrap it up in the cloak of "liberation".
Nebor
Lifer
I thought I was being pretty honest. The Iraqi people are a pawn in the oil game, caught between the white king and queen (US and UK) and the black king and queen (Russia and China.)
I'd have no problem wiping the slate (complete population irradication via chemical weapons) in Iraq so that we had unfettered access to the oil. It would make security much simpler from then on. Not wearing a US military or conractor uniform? Shot on sight.
cliftonite
Diamond Member
What right do we have to do this?
cliftonite
Diamond Member
And if they as a sovereign nation do not want to do this? If the goal is to develop a sustainable economy wouldnt it be in their best interest to sell their oil to the highest bidder?
So, uhh, is that what passes for "compassionate conservatism" these days, Nebor? Shamelessly advocating the murder of 30M people so that "American" Oil Companies can have an exclusive on selling Iraqi oil to the highest bidder?
Whatever happened to "spreading Democracy" and "Free, Freedom and Liberty"?
Whatever happened to "spreading Democracy" and "Free, Freedom and Liberty"?
OK, going backwards in you bolding my statements:
Last bolded: I can't imagine Iraq not wanting a successful long term stable economy, so I'm not sure why you'd suggest they'd not want this.
First bolded: That's certainly their call and their right, end of story. As others have pointed out, the Iraqi's didn't ask us to come into their country and kick out the sh1tpot regime that was there (although since we helped foster it back in the day, if someone non-Iraqi was going to do it, then it's fitting it was us doing it), so it's not like at a hardball country level they owe us anything.
However, countries that do business with the US make money, lots of it. Money makes the world go round so to speak. So it's in Iraq's interest to leverage their resources while they command a price premium to make all the money they can, before some new technology drastically reduces the demand for their resources (which lets face it, is oil).
Doing business with some foreign country to make what will be sh1tloads of money is absolutely in their best interest, and as the US, we should be doing everything we can to be their best friends so we can have some type of good will at the negotiating table.
I don't doubt China, Russia, India, etc. are all reaching out to do the same...making big promises of their own to also gain that edge. Until petroleum is not the valuable limited asset that it is, the leading countries in the world (who are also the largest consumers) will be playing this poker game.
All I'm saying is that from a US perspective, we should be making sure we're stacking the deck as much as we can in our favor. 17 or however many few Billion dollar totally modern bases in a vital region of our national interest, for the Iraqi's to co-locate at and then absorb as we pull out..for free? No problem, we should absolutely foot that bill. A few Billion now for good will down the road on oil prioritization and pricing sounds like a good deal to me.
The Iraqi government just can't become corrupt (like SA) and needs to ensure fair distribution of that money, and make sure that money helps their social structure. That way we have educated Iraqi's that don't have such a warped view of the West...that to me is the real long term progress we should be driving towards in Iraq/ME.
JMHO's...
Chuck
jjzelinski
Diamond Member
No LL, JJZ does nto make a strange point. Perhaps you were referring to Nebor? 🙂
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