Iraq: Bush Jr's toxic legacy or Obama's rebuilding failure?

[OverVolt]

"Iraq: Bush Jr's toxic legacy or Obama's rebuilding failure?"

Both. We might as well have cut to the chase and just put military bases over the oil fields and be done with it.

 

[werepossum]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/13/opinion/bergen-iraq-isis-bush/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

The CDC sent samples of toxins to Baghdad University, which until the late 80s was a pretty well-considered university. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Iraq ever used weaponized biologicals. On the other hand, the USA is constantly derided for this and for "dual use" materials, yet seldom is it mentioned that France, Italy, and China actually sold Iraq its chemical bombs, shells and rockets, and numerous countries sold Iraq its chemical components.

 

[Jhhnn]

Colbert nailed it-

What was Obama thinking when Bush signed that status of forces agreement in 2008?

Yeh, that. So much for the usual mindless Obama-hate. They're really exploring the depths of Denial in this thread.

 

[randomrogue]

100% GWB fault.

 

[schmuckley]

Really? What intelligence did Bush have that was credible in the least that supported invading Iraq? So far, all we've seen is that the Bush administration just made up facts, lied and misinformed everyone just to invade. There were no WMD's, Hussein was in no way tied to 9/11, and remember, those were the two "reasons" the Bush admin. put forth to invade in the first place.

But I guess when you're the one disseminating the "intelligence", you get the chance to make it say anything you want, like Hussein had WMD's around Takrit, or that Hussein was in part responsible for 9/11...both of which were bald faced lies.

All true..
Bush was bad..Obama is worse 😵

Hey..people that vote:Maybe next time stop and think a minute.
Maybe vote in a preacher or businessman or something.
Someone who has ties to real people.
Not a career politician.

 

[randomrogue]

How in the world can Obama be worse?

 

[ivwshane]

All true..
Bush was bad..Obama is worse 😵

Hey..people that vote:Maybe next time stop and think a minute.
Maybe vote in a preacher or businessman or something.
Someone who has ties to real people.
Not a career politician.

Are you trolling now too? I thought one of the republican talking points was that he wasn't qualified because other than a senator he was a community organizer.

 

[norseamd]

OMG...you still believe Saddam assisted Al Qaeda with 9/11? Really? That was proved to be a lie years ago. Do you believe Saddam had WMD as well?

As to the OP's question, Iraq has been screwed up since that whole region was arbitrarily dived up by Europe. Bush's mistake was to get involved in the first place. (Note that his dad was smart and didn't overthrow Saddam).

Obama had realistically no shot at changing anything, once we overthrew Saddam, it was pretty much destined to be this.

do you have any proof of this arbitrary division of the near east?

besides kuwait mesopotamia and iran have been their own cultures for millennia

maybe you are thinking of the smaller arab counties

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

do you have any proof of this arbitrary division of the near east?

besides kuwait mesopotamia and iran have been their own cultures for millennia

maybe you are thinking of the smaller arab counties

Here is a pic of what I was talking about.

Taken from here : Link

 

[Orignal Earl]

40 maps that explain the Middle East

http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east

Best overall explanation I have ever found

 

[norseamd]

40 maps that explain the Middle East

http://www.vox.com/a/maps-explain-the-middle-east

Best overall explanation I have ever found

The ethnic groups of the Middle East

The most important color on this map of Middle Eastern ethnic groups is yellow: Arabs, who are the majority group in almost every MidEast country, including the North African countries not shown here. The exceptions are mostly-Jewish Israel in pink, mostly-Turkish Turkey in green, mostly-Persian Iran in orange, and heavily diverse Afghanistan. (More on the rich diversity of Iran and Afghanistan below.) That splash of red in the middle is really important: ethnic Kurds, who have no country of their own but big communities in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. But the big lesson of this map is that there is a belt of remarkable ethnic diversity from Turkey to Afghanistan, but that much of the rest of the region is dominated by ethnic Arabs.

wrong


the egyptians and mesopotamians of today more or less are the same egyptians and mesopotamians of ancient times


not arabs or turks

 

[norseamd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

 

[Attic]

a little of both.
Obama had 6yrs to rebuild Iraq. he failed.
he failed to set up a stable system in place.

but I still blame Bush Jr more for getting us in that mess in the 1st place

Though we are obviously meaningfully removed from the outcomes and decisions here, at some point Americans as a whole need to shoulder more responsibility for foreign policy failures that result in loss of life and pain and suffering, rather than blaming presidents or their opposing party.

Blaming someone else is a poor/weak prompt for change. But it is clear to most of us there needs to be some real change in foreign policy affairs occurring over at least the past 30 years.

 

[Orignal Earl]

wrong


the egyptians and mesopotamians of today more or less are the same egyptians and mesopotamians of ancient times


not arabs or turks

I think your supposed to start at map 1 and then follow along to map 2 etc

 

[norseamd]

 

[norseamd]

I think your supposed to start at map 1 and then follow along to map 2 etc

yah

not all of them are that bad

you can add anatolians to that list of those who are still more or less the same ethnicity as they were in ancient times

turkish is the language not the ethnicity

 

[bshole]

Cheney to the rescue y'all. Please save us oh wise one.

Cheney says:

“Our enemies no longer fear us. Our allies no longer trust us. Empty threats, meaningless redlines, leading from behind, and “engagement” with rogue regimes, have put America on a path of decline. Threats to America’s security are on the rise. Iran is marching towards a nuclear weapon. Al Qaeda is resurgent, establishing new safe havens across the Middle East, including in Iraq where President Obama withdrew all American forces with no stay behind agreement. He has announced he intends to [do] the same in Afghanistan. Syria has become the most dangerous training ground for Islamic terrorists since the attacks of 9/11. ”

The Cheneys’ press release announces: “the formation and launch of The Alliance for a Strong America, a 501(c)4 grassroots organization that will advocate for a restoration of American strength and power. The group will be led by former Vice President Cheney, who will serve as Chairman and Liz Cheney, who will be the group’s President. The committee is supported by citizens who are dedicated to the hard but necessary task of preserving freedom and restoring American strength and power in the wake of the Obama administration’s national security failures.”

ROFLMFAO and gasping for air!!!!!!

 

[thraashman]

Cheney to the rescue y'all. Please save us oh wise one.

Cheney says:






ROFLMFAO and gasping for air!!!!!!

Anyone who supports Cheney is a serious dumbass. That man is one of the worst human beings to ever hold office in this country and probably the most consistently wrong one.

 

[phillyTIM]

100% Bush's fault, period.

The neocon junta is back on the airwaves, spreading fear about another 9/11, mushroom clouds and such. This time, they are trying to have a cume-by-ya moment by assuming "shared responsibility" between bush (botched occupation & Paul Bremer's "Order Number 39" illegal privatization: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/07/usa.iraq1) & obama (supposedly-weak withdrawal). That is pure baloney.

Obama couldn't get us out of there fast enough, he was blasted by the public in 2010/2011. And Bremer's hand-picked Maliki wouldn't sign because of his ulterior (Iran-tied) motives: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/21/iraq-rejects-us-plea-bases

The US lost Iraq the moment the Bush/neocon junta stepped into it under completely false, illegal pretenses, and Maliki lost Iraq when he cleansed his government of Sunni participation after the US withdrawal leaving a stable-as-possible Iraq.

Iraq & its spread of violence is the Bush/Cheney/Maliki/neocon legacy. Period. The chickens have come home to roost, anybody could have predicted what has now come to occur with ISIS (composed of the disenfranchised Sunnis, many of which served Iraq & its military until Bremer's infamous "Order Number 1" Sunni cleansing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-a-palermo/iraq-and-the-neocons-the-_b_5506571.html). The blood is on the Bush/Cheney neocon hands.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/up-close-and-personal-wit_b_5506092.html

 

[Genx87]

Iraq war is on Bush. Libya and funding syrian rebels is on Obama. Our fucked up foreign policy for decades is on it all.

 

[fskimospy]

My favorite quote from Dick Cheney's hilarious op-ed was clearly this:

Rarely has a U.S. president been so wrong about so much at the expense of so many.

Cheney was unironically referring to Iraq when he said this.

What do people think, is Cheney the stupidest man ever to hold the Vice Presidency, the most incompetent man ever to hold the Vice Presidency, or the most hypocritical man ever to hold the Vice Presidency? (select as many as apply)

 

[phillyTIM]

And let's not underestimate Dick Cheney's new "Alliance for a Stronger America"; remember the mid-1990's neocon's "Project for a New American Century", which literally advocated for a 'Pearl Harbor style attack (which ended up being 2001's 9/11)?

History is repeating itself, just look at all the neocon's dancing around tv advocating on a double-down of failed Iraq occupation policy.

Cheney's "Alliance for a Stronger America" will form the new axis of evil, just as the early 2000's axis of evil truly ended up being Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bremer, Kristol, Kaagen, etc.

Dick Cheney is one of the most dangerous men alive, Bush was nothing but his vessel for him & his Halliburton in Iraq and he still has a lot of pull in the beltway, to answer your question Genx87.

Beware.

 

[phillyTIM]

Iraq war is on Bush. Libya and funding syrian rebels is on Obama. Our fucked up foreign policy for decades is on it all.

Syria, at least, is an absolutely direct descendant of Bush's failed Iraq occupation & Sunni cleanse. Where did you think the cleansed Iraq Sunnis fleed to? Yep - Syria.

Libya - I'm not above absolving Obama on this one, however. Could have done more.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Anyone who supports Cheney is a serious dumbass. That man is one of the worst human beings to ever hold office in this country and probably the most consistently wrong one.

But you can now contribute to a tax sheltered pro war "charity"!

 

[thraashman]

But you can now contribute to a tax sheltered pro war "charity"!

Well, when you put it that way!