Iran shells Iraq

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: MadRat
The hell they do. Turkey has alot of special forces types that come and go throughout the northern provinces of Iraq. Its called intelligence gathering. They're enemies, its happening and will not stop anytime soon.

On a side note, this is incredibly devious for Iran. The Shiite and Sunni factions within Iraq would just as soon shell them, too. I don't look for the collective Iraqi nation to stand up against Iran. Instead I look for them to slow play the Kurds into an internalized submission.

Turkey does it because the US lets it happen. If the US was intent on establishing a Kurdish state and warned Turkey not to interfere, you can bet they wouldn't because they know the consequences of what would happen if they did.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: MadRat
The hell they do. Turkey has alot of special forces types that come and go throughout the northern provinces of Iraq. Its called intelligence gathering. They're enemies, its happening and will not stop anytime soon.

On a side note, this is incredibly devious for Iran. The Shiite and Sunni factions within Iraq would just as soon shell them, too. I don't look for the collective Iraqi nation to stand up against Iran. Instead I look for them to slow play the Kurds into an internalized submission.

Turkey does it because the US lets it happen. If the US was intent on establishing a Kurdish state and warned Turkey not to interfere, you can bet they wouldn't because they know the consequences of what would happen if they did.

Uh huh.

Turkey is really intent on following king george's orders. :roll:

Turkish Armed Forces Strike PKK Camps in N. Iraq

If Turkey was to invade Northern Iraq the ensuing violence would ingnite the entire Middle East -- and, short of nuclear response, the U.S., thanks to king george's incompetence, is NOT currently prepared to respond.

Thanks to rumsfeld the U.S. can't handle a rag-tag Iraqi insurrection. A region wide conflict would be devastating.

When are Americans going to learn that bush's myopic reliance on violence as diplomacy doesn't leave any options other than more violence?

 

[Aimster]

The U.S does not control Turkey

They didn't allow the U.S to invade from the North.

Have you seen Turkey's military? It's just as powerful as Israel. Israel and Turkey are friends and hold joint operations together. How many Muslim nations do this?

The U.S doesn't control Israel when it bombs Palestine. It just issues a "statement". The U.S doesn't country Turkey when they want to bomb northern Iraq. It will just issue a "statement".

Turkey > Kurds that are not important to the U.S. That is how the U.S operates. If you disagree then maybe you also think we are in Africa helping those people out.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: MadRat
The hell they do. Turkey has alot of special forces types that come and go throughout the northern provinces of Iraq. Its called intelligence gathering. They're enemies, its happening and will not stop anytime soon.

On a side note, this is incredibly devious for Iran. The Shiite and Sunni factions within Iraq would just as soon shell them, too. I don't look for the collective Iraqi nation to stand up against Iran. Instead I look for them to slow play the Kurds into an internalized submission.

Turkey does it because the US lets it happen. If the US was intent on establishing a Kurdish state and warned Turkey not to interfere, you can bet they wouldn't because they know the consequences of what would happen if they did.

Uh huh.

Turkey is really intent on following king george's orders. :roll:

Turkish Armed Forces Strike PKK Camps in N. Iraq

If Turkey was to invade Northern Iraq the ensuing violence would ingnite the entire Middle East -- and, short of nuclear response, the U.S., thanks to king george's incompetence, is NOT currently prepared to respond.

Thanks to rumsfeld the U.S. can't handle a rag-tag Iraqi insurrection. A region wide conflict would be devastating.

When are Americans going to learn that bush's myopic reliance on violence as diplomacy doesn't leave any options other than more violence?

You're an imbecile. The US hasn't swept through Iraq like a storm because it tries to avoid civilian casualties at all costs. If Turkey pressed on with a war that defied America's position, their military would be decimated - they have antiquated weapons for the most part that are given to them by NATO and US as surplus. Although it would never even come to that because Turkey wouldn't want to sour it's relationship with the US and as a consequence, Israel as well.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Aimster
The U.S does not control Turkey

They didn't allow the U.S to invade from the North.

Have you seen Turkey's military? It's just as powerful as Israel. Israel and Turkey are friends and hold joint operations together. How many Muslim nations do this?

The U.S doesn't control Israel when it bombs Palestine. It just issues a "statement". The U.S doesn't country Turkey when they want to bomb northern Iraq. It will just issue a "statement".

Turkey > Kurds that are not important to the U.S. That is how the U.S operates. If you disagree then maybe you also think we are in Africa helping those people out.

I never made the claim the US cared about establishing a Kurdish state. I said it was my opinion that there should be a Kurdish state and Iraq should be split into smaller more ethnically/religious homogenous nations. If the US ever did take this path and warned Turkey to stay out of the newly formed Kurdistan, they would. It's in their vested interest to please the US as much as possible, not to defy them. The fact that you pointed out Turkey enjoying a friendly relationship with Israel and USA further backs up my claim.

 

[Aimster]

Turkey didn't allow the U.S to invade from the North.
If Turkey was kissing ass to the U.S they would have done so and allowed the U.S to invade. Before the war it was a major issue.
I believe as a result the U.S cut off some loan guarantees to Turkey and Turkey said fine.

An independent Kurdish state would mean Iran and Turkey allied against the Kurds. Thousands will die. It will be bloody. It doesn't matter what the U.S says. The conflict will be internal for both Iran and Turkey and it will destabilize both countries if action is not taken. Not to mention Iraq would be hit the hardest.

It's like the U.S telling Israel they can no longer attack Palestine. Israel will ignore the U.S. The U.S has on many occasions told Israel they need to have restraint. Israel didn't listen and no action was done against Israel.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Turkey didn't allow the U.S to invade from the North.
If Turkey was kissing ass to the U.S they would have done so and allowed the U.S to invade. Before the war it was a major issue.
I believe as a result the U.S cut off some loan guarantees to Turkey and Turkey said fine.

An independent Kurdish state would mean Iran and Turkey allied against the Kurds. Thousands will die. It will be bloody. It doesn't matter what the U.S says. The conflict will be internal for both Iran and Turkey and it will destabilize both countries if action is not taken. Not to mention Iraq would be hit the hardest.

It's like the U.S telling Israel they can no longer attack Palestine. Israel will ignore the U.S. The U.S has on many occasions told Israel they need to have restraint. Israel didn't listen and no action was done against Israel.

Of course this is all opinion from both of us. While Turkey may have refused to allow the US to use it's territory to invade Iraq, in the grand scheme of things it didn't really matter anyway. Hypothetically if the US wanted to fragment Iraq into 3 or more nations and one of those was a Kurdish state, why would Turkey or Iran care? The Kurds would finally have what they always wanted - a nation to call their own. You don't think the US would make it clear to them and Turkey that no fighting will take place after that? Besides, if the US had a small military contingent patrolling the new Kurdish state, Turkey wouldn't dare attack because that would be considered an attack against the US. You can't draw similarities between this and Israel/Palestine because the US essentially gives Israel complete freedom to do what they want and only pays lip service to the Pals when necessary.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Aimster
Turkey didn't allow the U.S to invade from the North.
If Turkey was kissing ass to the U.S they would have done so and allowed the U.S to invade. Before the war it was a major issue.
I believe as a result the U.S cut off some loan guarantees to Turkey and Turkey said fine.

An independent Kurdish state would mean Iran and Turkey allied against the Kurds. Thousands will die. It will be bloody. It doesn't matter what the U.S says. The conflict will be internal for both Iran and Turkey and it will destabilize both countries if action is not taken. Not to mention Iraq would be hit the hardest.

It's like the U.S telling Israel they can no longer attack Palestine. Israel will ignore the U.S. The U.S has on many occasions told Israel they need to have restraint. Israel didn't listen and no action was done against Israel.

Of course this is all opinion from both of us. While Turkey may have refused to allow the US to use it's territory to invade Iraq, in the grand scheme of things it didn't really matter anyway. Hypothetically if the US wanted to fragment Iraq into 3 or more nations and one of those was a Kurdish state, why would Turkey or Iran care? The Kurds would finally have what they always wanted - a nation to call their own. You don't think the US would make it clear to them and Turkey that no fighting will take place after that? Besides, if the US had a small military contingent patrolling the new Kurdish state, Turkey wouldn't dare attack because that would be considered an attack against the US. You can't draw similarities between this and Israel/Palestine because the US essentially gives Israel complete freedom to do what they want and only pays lip service to the Pals when necessary.

This isn't something new. The U.S has always supported Turkey's advances into Iraq. Well not supported, but they never said anything.

1999
http://www.newyouth.com/archives/middle.../us_nato_hypocrisy_exposed_as_tur.html

1995
http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/washburn5.html

If you read the report, it will sound very familiar with the Israel-Palestinian issue.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: MadRat
The hell they do. Turkey has alot of special forces types that come and go throughout the northern provinces of Iraq. Its called intelligence gathering. They're enemies, its happening and will not stop anytime soon.

On a side note, this is incredibly devious for Iran. The Shiite and Sunni factions within Iraq would just as soon shell them, too. I don't look for the collective Iraqi nation to stand up against Iran. Instead I look for them to slow play the Kurds into an internalized submission.

Turkey does it because the US lets it happen. If the US was intent on establishing a Kurdish state and warned Turkey not to interfere, you can bet they wouldn't because they know the consequences of what would happen if they did.

Uh huh.

Turkey is really intent on following king george's orders. :roll:

Turkish Armed Forces Strike PKK Camps in N. Iraq

If Turkey was to invade Northern Iraq the ensuing violence would ingnite the entire Middle East -- and, short of nuclear response, the U.S., thanks to king george's incompetence, is NOT currently prepared to respond.

Thanks to rumsfeld the U.S. can't handle a rag-tag Iraqi insurrection. A region wide conflict would be devastating.

When are Americans going to learn that bush's myopic reliance on violence as diplomacy doesn't leave any options other than more violence?

We would have an easier time fighting all the middle eastern countries at one time than fighting an insurgency with guerilla tactics. We can destroy nearly any standing army and a country's infrastructure in days, with ease. Just look at what we did to Iraq in the first few weeks of the war. However, fighting a guerilla war is extremely difficult...For ANY country, even us.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Of course this is all opinion from both of us. While Turkey may have refused to allow the US to use it's territory to invade Iraq, in the grand scheme of things it didn't really matter anyway. Hypothetically if the US wanted to fragment Iraq into 3 or more nations and one of those was a Kurdish state, why would Turkey or Iran care? The Kurds would finally have what they always wanted - a nation to call their own. You don't think the US would make it clear to them and Turkey that no fighting will take place after that? Besides, if the US had a small military contingent patrolling the new Kurdish state, Turkey wouldn't dare attack because that would be considered an attack against the US. You can't draw similarities between this and Israel/Palestine because the US essentially gives Israel complete freedom to do what they want and only pays lip service to the Pals when necessary.

Get it through your head - this is NOT about a Kurdish state. Repeat after me...this is NOT about the Kurds. This is about control of the northern Iraqi oil fields, their pipeline connections, and the southern areas of Turkey. The land claimed by the Kurds just HAPPENS to be rich in oil fields...oil fields that the central Iraqi government will not cede control over, and that frankly Turkey would love to have influence over. And if I am not mistaken, the land in southern Turkey claiimed by the Kurds there is also pretty valuable.

The whole reason that the partitioning of Iraq cannot work is that there are two main oil field areas - and the Kurds currently control one, and a single Muslim faction (Shiites or Sunnis, I cannot remember) has a population base centered on the other. So ONE major group loses out on the oil wealth if Iraq is partitioned - and no one will agree to that, at least peacibly.

THAT is why a civil war in Iraq is a certainty unless a peacible solution that enforces a central government (and divides the oil wealth) is not found. There IS no other road to economic propserity in most Middle Eastern countries without control of the oil.

Future Shock

 

[MadRat]

I fear anything less than civil war leads to a new sunni state. The sunnis can draw arabs from the entire middle east and north africa since they are what makes up 90% of all muslims. They will not tolerate a new shia state. And they certainly won't accept kurdish infidels.

 

[Todd33]

Why shouldn't they get involved in Iraq? Maybe they have a pre-emptive doctrine now? They sure as heck live closer and have more to gain or lose than us. How is our invasion anymore or less heinous than Iran doing the same? That's right, do as we say not as we do...

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: MadRat
I fear anything less than civil war leads to a new sunni state. The sunnis can draw arabs from the entire middle east and north africa since they are what makes up 90% of all muslims. They will not tolerate a new shia state. And they certainly won't accept kurdish infidels.

Any strong unified Muslim force will be put down with chemical weapons.

The U.S did it before in the past and they will do it again in the future.

 

[piasabird]

We have troops on the Ground in Germany, but we do not control Germany.

Iran may have a legitimate compaint against some of the kurds. I dont think Iran has the might to conquer Iraq, but I am not for starting a major war with them and having to pay even more at the pump.

Iraqi's need to get their own government going so they can start to make some policy decisions and send out diplomats to talk to Iran.