"if they felt it was in their interests" Who do you think runs the US government?
Hint:
The Puppet Masters
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Iran missile test alarms Israel
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"if they felt it was in their interests" Who do you think runs the US government?
Hint:
The Puppet Masters
It doesn't matter if Iran produces one viable warhead and Israel has a hundred; you only need one warhead for the deterrent aspect of nuclear arms to work. Iraq didn't have one, but you can be damn sure that North Korea and Iran will have theirs as soon as possible.
And you have to be pretty goddamn dense to still believe NK and Iran are becoming nuclear for first-strike capabilities. Their missile technology sucks. They'd only use nuclear weapons as a last resort weapon against an attacking US offensive front, maybe wiping out a several thousand US soldiers ala Custer's last stand.
If going nuclear is what NK and Iran need to do to protect themselves from Bush's re-election campaign, so be it.
And you have to be pretty goddamn dense to still believe NK and Iran are becoming nuclear for first-strike capabilities. Their missile technology sucks. They'd only use nuclear weapons as a last resort weapon against an attacking US offensive front, maybe wiping out a several thousand US soldiers ala Custer's last stand.
If going nuclear is what NK and Iran need to do to protect themselves from Bush's re-election campaign, so be it.
Oh yes the hidden controllers! Of course! And did you hear those stories about Jews eating babies and stealing Sacrament wafers and stabbing them so they can crucify christ again!
Only fools believe anyone but the american people controls the US government. Similar fools would believe Israel would kill more than 6 million jews if "if they felt it was in their interests".
adlep
Diamond Member
Hagbard has its point.
And he knows more about foreign policy than most of the posters here....
Once again Why do we hate Iran again?
Before you answer that question, you must know that CIA overthrew the democratic gov in Iran and re-instituted monarchy in the 50's.
Yes, then there was a hostage incident, but no American was harmed.
What Iran got in return...?
Hint Rumsfeld in Iraq in the 80's, hint, hint million casualities...
Now who is the great evil?
And he knows more about foreign policy than most of the posters here....
Once again Why do we hate Iran again?
Before you answer that question, you must know that CIA overthrew the democratic gov in Iran and re-instituted monarchy in the 50's.
Yes, then there was a hostage incident, but no American was harmed.
What Iran got in return...?
Hint Rumsfeld in Iraq in the 80's, hint, hint million casualities...
Now who is the great evil?
LilBlinbBlahIce
Golden Member
I agree with you, I don't think Israel would ever nuke the US, you don't bite the hand that feeds you, let alone the hand that ensures your existence. But if you can honestly claim that pro-Israel groups do not play a MAJOR part in shaping US foreign policy, you are very naive. Besides, critisizing Israel is not the same as anti-Semetism, the Palestinians are Semites too, but try critisizing any of Israel's actions in the US without being called a Jew hater. Back to the point, I think Iran has a right to arm itself, especially if it is not threatning anyone. Their just following the example of NK, who actually threatened us and have we dared to do anything to them? No, we just went after Iraq, and its becoming ever more apparent it was because we knew they had no weapons and posed no real threat to our forces. And don't tell me the pro-Israeli's in the White House did not have a few extra reasons on their mind for prodding for that war.
The US ensures NOTHING in Israel. Not a single US tax payer dollar was sent to Israel prior to the Camp David Accords. Israel is and always has been self sufficient in both millitary technology and civillian economy. US aide dollars help them but they do not need them. The Israeli lobby in Washington may be active but it does NOT play a major part in shaping US foreign policy as you claim. Making such a claim completely ignores the FACT that the christian right in this country are adamantly opposed to a non-US friendly nation being in control of the "Holy Lands". The Christian lobbies in this country are FAR more powerful and control much MORE of the republican party than any Jewish lobby could EVER hope to influence. This is easily evidenced by the Chrisitan Coalition's (a group of pasty white men of european descent) support of Israel and Christian leaders like Buchanan's adamant support of the state of Israel. The nation of Israel's existence is a critical component to the Protestant religions in America because it's existence is an essential component to the "second coming of christ'.
Anyone making a claim that the Jew's control america or the media or the banks is completely ignorant of american politics and is perpetuating the Russian "Illuminati" myth which IS anti-semtic in origin and use.
Wolfowitz writes US foriegn policy documents that are enacted almost exactly as written by the President. Wolfowitz and his cronies in the republican party are the shapers of US foriegn policy guided by the American public's satisfation.
You don't have a clue. The US has been sending billions a year to Israel since the mid-60s. Again, what are the largest lobby groups in Washington? Yet another willfully blind American. As for the Christian right, those are nothing but useful idiots for the right wingers in Israel. They're all hoping for a Kingdom of Israel so they can get on with Armageddon.
LilBlinbBlahIce
Golden Member
Exactly Rahvin, are you going to tell me that Israel magically developed the Apache and M1A1 all on their own? We give a country of around 6 million 3.5bil. in aid a year. That's more than any other nation. Half the costs of the settlements are footed by Americans. I do not know how you could be so oblivious to that. AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in the US after the AARP. What the hell is a lobby for another country doing with so much money and influence in the US? How does the existence of Israel make life better for the average American? I have nothing against Israel, but having the world hate us for our unflinching and one sided support for a country that is basically holding an entire people in a gulag called the West Bank and really holds no benefit to the US is stupid. You're right, the Christian right has a lot to do with it, and ironically, thier support is pretty anti-Semetic in itself if you keep in mind that on Armageddon, Jews will either have ot accept Christ of be destroyed. But if you honestly beleive that pro-Israel groups in the US do not shape our foreign policy in a significant way, you are being very naive, and it is not anti-Semetic to suggest that, it is the truth. The Christian right further demonstrate their stupidity by not acknowledging that many of their fellow Christians are Palestinian, the very people whose day to day life they are help making unbearable. I would like to see Israel survive a few years without ANY US aid, that should proove their self-sufficiency.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html
Billions eh? Count again Hagbard. We didn't send Israel a significant amount of money prior to the Camp David accords. 100million a year in food aid (purchase grants to buy US agricultural products) is hardly significant.
Because they use our weapons systems that makes them dependent on us? That is outstanding logic! Israel has the capability for very advanced weapons development. Their industrial/millitary complex is one of the largest in the world and their field usage of weapon systems gives them advanced development potential. Had the US not partnered with Israel and begun supplying the heavy weaponry Israel would have developed their own weapons systems in cooperation with another nation with the production capacity to build the systems. Currently that role would probably fall with China. US millitary aid to Israel has a twofold purpose. 1: To subsidize the US millitary/industrial complex to bring down weapons system costs 2: To prevent Israel from partnering with a nation that might not be in US interests to develop the weapons systems they need. US aid to Israel accounts for less than 3% of the Israeli budget.
The Pro-Israeli lobby like any lobby tries to influence government. The reality is that the lobby only has as much influence as the american people will tolerate. The simple fact is that well over 50% of this country believes in unequivocal support of Israel on the basis of thier religious beliefs. Although the Pro-Israeli lobby may have influence over the type of aid Israel recieves to a minor extent the fact that the aid exists in the first place is a direct result of a religious nature of this country. Religous PAC's have direct control over the republican party and the southern baptists are generally the preeminent leaders of those PAC's. Again, failure to acknowledge this connection is a profound ignorance of politics in the US.
BTW I don't agree with you that AIPAC is the second most powerfull lobby. I can think of a dozen others that have more direct influence and half of them start with "Christian". AIPAC has money not voters, the other groups have money and voters.
Finally I will leave you with this quote:
LilBlinbBlahIce
Golden Member
Rahvin, here are some exerpts from that article:
"Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person."
"Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years."
"Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel."
"Israel uses roughly 40 percent of its $1.8 billion per year in military aid, ostensibly earmarked for purchase of US weapons, to buy Israeli-made hardware. It also has won the right to require the Defense Department or US defense contractors to buy Israeli-made equipment or subsystems, paying 50 to 60 cents on every defense dollar the US gives to Israel."
"Israel has blocked some major US arms sales, such as F-15 fighter aircraft to Saudi Arabia in the mid-1980s. That cost $40 billion over 10 years, says Stauffer"
"Stauffer's list will be controversial. He's been assisted in this research by a number of mostly retired military or diplomatic officials who do not go public for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic if they criticize America's policies toward Israel."
You cannot critisize Israel in any way without being destroyed in this country. Why should we let some country, who has done nothing but make life hard for us and cost us billions, make us its bitch? Because some religious right-wing Christians support Israel for what are basically racist beleifs (read my post). There is no reason for us to waste so much money on Israel when it could be spent on much more important issues right here at home.
I always felt we should have a massive reduction of foreign Aid to to other countries. Its been mentioned above how much we support israel and for what intel only? thats the ONLY thing i can see we need from israel. Im sure everyone knows were only in the middle east because the vast amount of oil and gas. If politicians werent so stupid as to criple this economy by have such a HUGE dependence on oil. Those billions of dollars worth of aid we send to other countries can easily be used to move us onto hydrogen based fuel technology. hopefully finally leaving us to get the hell out of the middle east and let them go their own way. Along with bring the rest of our american forces home...
But of course stupidity is pretty huge in our government.
But of course stupidity is pretty huge in our government.
LilBlinbBlahIce
Golden Member
Who cares. It's not worth it for all the hatred it directs to us, all the money we have to spend, and the fact we get NOTHING from them that we cannot get from elsewhere with half the trouble. Want to help someone who shares our values? Help India, the world's largest democracy. They could use 3.5 bln. a year and they already provide us with a lot of the things we need, like ultra cheep, ultra educated and skilled labor.
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