iPhone SE

[poofyhairguy]

Yeah, it's all Apple's fault again that Android OEMs has no brand loyalty because they sold their souls to the do-no-evil Google. It's also Apple's fault they correctly surmised right from the beginning that ecosystem lock-in is a far powerful tool to sustain loyalty

You must have missed the beginning of the mobile revolution. At the beginning after the iPhone created the category OEMs did try to make their own smartphone ecosystems- WebOS, Blackberry OS, Meego, etc. Samsung blew past all of them leveraging Android, and soon Android's/iOSes app advantage killed all the other options. Only Apple was able to avoid Android thanks to a huge first mover advantage and quality. Where we are is exactly where people want to be. The market delivers what consumers will buy, nothing more.

I don't think the iPhone SE is this great value because Apple "learned from the mistakes of the IPhone 6" or some nonsense like that. I think it is a great value because it won't get refreshed for 18-24 months.

 

[Commodus]

Yeah, it's all Apple's fault again that Android OEMs has no brand loyalty because they sold their souls to the do-no-evil Google. It's also Apple's fault they correctly surmised right from the beginning that ecosystem lock-in is a far powerful tool to sustain loyalty than Android OEMs throwing ever more hardware at a fundamental software deficiency they have no control of while their profits simply vaporized once the phase of good enough hardware hitted in 2013.

The mental gymnastics used to blame Apple is amazing.

That's too hyperbolic (to reuse a word). I do think that Android OEMs face an uphill battle because they have no true way to stand out in terms of software, but a lot of their problems have come from their own reluctance to cultivate loyalty.

Long-term software support is one problem, for example -- it's not just that vendors tend to drop upgrade support early (less than 2 years is common), it's that different models get different levels of support. Your high-end phone may get two years of support at best, but an entry-level phone may be abandoned after the first major update. What reason is there to stick with an OEM that stops caring about you the moment there's a new product on the shelves?

The other issue is a lack of focus. Many brands have an every-niche-must-be-filled approach that utterly dilutes their design resources and public image. Samsung is the most notorious for this (it was only after the Galaxy S5 failed that it started trimming down its model line), but LG, Sony and others do it too. Develop a reputation for premium products, or low-cost products, but not both -- otherwise, you end up making lowest common denominator products and give buyers little idea of what to expect.

People accuse Apple of being out of touch with the developing world and leaving money on the table as it insists on making high-priced products. However, it's that very focus which is keeping it profitable, even in China and other markets where low-cost phones are supposed to reign supreme. It not only doesn't feel compelled to kill its profit margins like many of its rivals, it sets itself up as an aspirational brand (deserved or otherwise) that you choose simply because you've heard good things about it. The iPhone SE may have a 4-inch display and 16GB of storage at $399, but it's still going to be seen as a dream phone in Shanghai or Mumbai.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Yeah, it's all Apple's fault again that Android OEMs has no brand loyalty because they sold their souls to the do-no-evil Google. It's also Apple's fault they correctly surmised right from the beginning that ecosystem lock-in is a far powerful tool to sustain loyalty than Android OEMs throwing ever more hardware at a fundamental software deficiency they have no control of while their profits simply vaporized once the phase of good enough hardware hitted in 2013.

The mental gymnastics used to blame Apple is amazing.

Excellent post :thumbsup:

 

[blankslate]

I'm still mad the idea of a 16 GB base model because I feel like it's unnecessarily held back the larger storage options from becoming cheaper (because too many people look at a sheet price more than anything else), but it makes a lot more sense now.

They could still go from 16 to 32 to 64 to 128... would make for a more logical progression structure without adding much cost... easily within reach of one of most cash rich tech companies.

but as mentioned by others it's not just storage that is an issue it's the fact that you have to be aware of Apple's release cycles to get the best value for your dollar...



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[blankslate]

Yeah, it's all Apple's fault again that Android OEMs has no brand loyalty because they sold their souls to the do-no-evil Google. It's also Apple's fault they correctly surmised right from the beginning that ecosystem lock-in is a far powerful tool to sustain loyalty than Android OEMs throwing ever more hardware at a fundamental software deficiency they have no control of while their profits simply vaporized once the phase of good enough hardware hitted in 2013.

The mental gymnastics used to blame Apple is amazing.

Please Android's problems are Google's fault as well as the manufacturer's who place laggy skins on the OS, among other things.


It's Apple's fault that they make it necessary for people to be at least marginally aware so they get the better products from Apple.


for example. I'd always wait for the second release of a new iteration of iPhone if that's what I used. (the 6s instead of the 6, and when the 7 is released I'd wait for the 7s)

Nice attempt to twist valid criticisms into an us vs. them fan-war though


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[blankslate]

People accuse Apple of being out of touch with the developing world and leaving money on the table as it insists on making high-priced products. However, it's that very focus which is keeping it profitable, even in China and other markets where low-cost phones are supposed to reign supreme.

This works to Apple's advantage because they gain the mystique of a premium product which I believe the "S" interations of their phones (6s and 5s for example) are... I'd bet there is a not insignificant segment of their customers who like the iPhone as a status symbol as much as anything else.

I was rather surprised, at first when, they announced the 6se but it's probably because they realized that many people still use the 5s and maybe they did research to find that people liked the screen size given an upgrade path with the same screen size there'd be increase sales.

From my understanding the recent quarter or two was the first time iPhone sales was flat... which is of course better than most if not all android phone manufacturers.

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[Arachnotronic]

This works to Apple's advantage because they gain the mystique of a premium product which I believe the "S" interations of their phones (6s and 5s for example) are... I'd bet there is a not insignificant segment of their customers who like the iPhone as a status symbol as much as anything else.

I was rather surprised, at first when, they announced the 6se but it's probably because they realized that many people still use the 5s and maybe they did research to find that people liked the screen size given an upgrade path with the same screen size there'd be increase sales.

From my understanding the recent quarter or two was the first time iPhone sales was flat... which is of course better than most if not all android phone manufacturers.

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iPhone sales flat last qtr, expected to be down double digits in the March quarter.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I find the SE to be pretty compelling myself, but I'm probably going to hold out for the 7 since it seems like it could be a big step (OLED alone would be worth it for me) and I worry that the SE would be a bit too small (my smartphones have been 5.7" ones).

 

[lopri]

Again, I think this is a nice option for both who want smaller phones and who want cheaper iPhone. For me 4" screen is too small. I do not know how many words fit in a single line (2~3 long-ish words, 3~4 short-ish words max?) but that was one of the reasons why I have not looked back since I got bigger phones.

I would not mind 4.7"-ish phones with thin bezels, such as the original Moto X, though. That is the max size I can comfortably operate one-handedly.

 

[dawheat]

Order volumes seem muted based on recent news - though obviously we don't know how accurate they are.

I don't think it's a surprise - outside of a small initial bounce for a niche that really wanted it, I think volumes will mostly settle back at where the 5S was selling a few months ago. Surprisingly healthy and the update I think will help keep this volume going as the 5S was getting increasingly long in the tooth. But this won't be a driver for growth.

That being said, Apple still moves tens of millions of these a year - surprised no Android OEM besides Sony has even tried capturing some of this business.

 

[Commodus]

Order volumes seem muted based on recent news - though obviously we don't know how accurate they are.

I don't think it's a surprise - outside of a small initial bounce for a niche that really wanted it, I think volumes will mostly settle back at where the 5S was selling a few months ago. Surprisingly healthy and the update I think will help keep this volume going as the 5S was getting increasingly long in the tooth. But this won't be a driver for growth.

Yeah, the notion that this needed to be a runaway hit to be a success isn't right. It's designed to widen the market for lower-end iPhones (through a lower price and higher performance), not to bowl people over.

With that said, it was interesting to go to the Apple Store yesterday and watch multiple people (including my girlfriend) buy the iPhone SE. I'm sure that's the bounce you're talking about, but it's still funny to see people rush to get a budget iPhone.

 

[vi edit]

Yeah the SE will be a slow burn. But I fully expect it to double, if not triple what the 5c sales did.

 

[pm]

There was one massive bit of irony last Thursday that I just remembered when we are talking about slow sales. I was standing in the Tesla Model 3 line at Park Meadows Mall in Denver and that line was around 700 people, maybe even more. And I looked over at the iPhone SE line and there were exactly 9 people in line and they showed up right before the doors opened.

 

[openwheel]

what? No one is camping out for the iPhone SE?
It has the perfect size of all phone screens.
Commodus, help me out here.

 

[poofyhairguy]

There was one massive bit of irony last Thursday that I just remembered when we are talking about slow sales. I was standing in the Tesla Model 3 line at Park Meadows Mall in Denver and that line was around 700 people, maybe even more. And I looked over at the iPhone SE line and there were exactly 9 people in line and they showed up right before the doors opened.

Tesla is the new Apple for sure. Heck, maybe even beyond Apple- no one paid Apple for the right to get in line to buy an iPhone years from now.

My best friend was a HUGE Apple fan 10 years ago, and today he still uses Apple stuff but Tesla is his main brand now. He owns the S and he was in line for the Model 3. He calls the self driving feature of his S the "smartphone of cars."

 

[mrochester]

Tesla is the new Apple for sure. Heck, maybe even beyond Apple- no one paid Apple for the right to get in line to buy an iPhone years from now.

My best friend was a HUGE Apple fan 10 years ago, and today he still uses Apple stuff but Tesla is his main brand now. He owns the S and he was in line for the Model 3. He calls the self driving feature of his S the "smartphone of cars."

It's a shame really as it means Tesla and Tesla owners are in for years of abuse by narrow-minded people who hate innovative companies that push markets forward.

 

[poofyhairguy]

It's a shame really as it means Tesla and Tesla owners are in for years of abuse by narrow-minded people who hate innovative companies that push markets forward.

Luckily that won't be a problem for years because I don't see the Model 3 shipping before 2018. Anyone who has a Model S/X knows they are buying a halo product, it is part of the appeal.

 

[pm]

Luckily that won't be a problem for years because I don't see the Model 3 shipping before 2018. Anyone who has a Model S/X knows they are buying a halo product, it is part of the appeal.

I would think a lot of the pre-orders, including mine, were motivated by having seen or driven or talked to a Model S owner. In my case, it's my father. The Model S is an amazing car but unfortunately somewhat above my income level (and also it's a bit big), so instead I got in the line for a Model 3 which I can definitely afford and I was way up near the front of the line so I shouldn't have to wait that long into 2018 for mine. I don't think it's part of the appeal, for me it's the whole appeal. I've seen the Model S, and I think the Model 3 will be a smaller, almost-as-fast, cheaper, not-quite-as-fancy version of the S.

But I agree that there's a lot of similarities between Apple and Tesla. I just read this and it was interesting:
https://stratechery.com/2016/its-a-tesla/

It's a shame really as it means Tesla and Tesla owners are in for years of abuse by narrow-minded people who hate innovative companies that push markets forward.

I certainly got a lot of not-entirely-nice jokes from my co-workers when I left Wed. night and said I was going to be late in to work on Thursday to stand in line to put $1000 down to buy a car that I hadn't seen and didn't know any of specifications for. And I still have a bunch of people hassling me in a funny-but-not-really-funny way telling me that they want to drive in my mythical car when I get it in 2020, or, even more commonly "good luck getting the $7500 credit, it will be long gone before they ship your car". I don't know exactly where this not-quite-animosity-but-definitely-not-bonhomie is coming from - whether they honestly think I'm an idiot for getting excited over what excites me, or they are jealous or something in the middle.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I certainly got a lot of not-entirely-nice jokes from my co-workers when I left Wed. night and said I was going to be late in to work on Thursday to stand in line to put $1000 down to buy a car that I hadn't seen and didn't know any of specifications for. And I still have a bunch of people hassling me in a funny-but-not-really-funny way telling me that they want to drive in my mythical car when I get it in 2020.

I think the massive number of pre-orders proves that not only is the Model 3 not some sort of joke, neither is Tesla. A lot of people have bought into the idea of electric car, and Tesla is doing more than anyone pushing forward on both self driving cars and electric cars.

Personally I have a lot of doubts about this appealing to a general audience in say 2024 when Tesla saturates the devoted (people willing to pre-order or buy a $70+k car online that they don't get for weeks/months). Most people make decisions for economic reasons most of the time, and I don't see the economic case for the Model 3 for the average American family.

But by say 2020 every city in America that counts itself as liberal- San Fran, Portland, Austin, etc. - will have the Tesla 3 as its unofficial car on the road. And that alone will be a big deal, the Prius started the same way. And people mock the Tesla owners for the same reason people mocked Prius owners at first- it is a personal statement (or even a fashion statement) more than a mode of practical transportation. But that will fade just like no one cracks a Prius joke anymore, as they are commonplace.

 

[pm]

Personally I have a lot of doubts about this appealing to a general audience in say 2024 when Tesla saturates the devoted (people willing to pre-order or buy a $70+k car online that they don't get for weeks/months). Most people make decisions for economic reasons most of the time, and I don't see the economic case for the Model 3 for the average American family.

I worry as moderator that I've taken this discussion off the rails a bit... its bad behavior for a mod to take a discussion about iPhone's SE model and turn it into a Tesla discussion so I think this will be my last reply.

I do not think that most people buy the car that they buy for economic reasons. Maybe some do, but if everyone did it, we'd all be driving around in some cheap reliable thing like a Honda Civic. We can debate which is the perfect economically ideal car, but the fact that not everyone is driving the same car tells me that this only part of the story. If humans always made perfect rational economic decisions, then the entire high-performance car industry would totally implode except for a few professional racecar drivers.

I think if the Model 3 is a fun car, looks good and is a practical car, then the economics of it will go by the wayside. Maybe even the environmentalism aspect will fall by the wayside too... as it did with the Prius when gas was expensive.

 

[Commodus]

Tesla is the new Apple for sure. Heck, maybe even beyond Apple- no one paid Apple for the right to get in line to buy an iPhone years from now.

My best friend was a HUGE Apple fan 10 years ago, and today he still uses Apple stuff but Tesla is his main brand now. He owns the S and he was in line for the Model 3. He calls the self driving feature of his S the "smartphone of cars."

I want to see if Apple can muster a similar level of hype if/when it gets into cars. You know that its name will instantly get it a lot of attention, but like you said: Tesla is the new Apple in some respects. It has that clever underdog vibe that Apple had until the iPhone took off. Apple's main advantage is simply that it has the resources and supply chain needed to avoid Tesla's notoriously long delays.

 

[Artdeco]

I worry as moderator that I've taken this discussion off the rails a bit... its bad behavior for a mod to take a discussion about iPhone's SE model and turn it into a Tesla discussion so I think this will be my last reply.

I do not think that most people buy the car that they buy for economic reasons. Maybe some do, but if everyone did it, we'd all be driving around in some cheap reliable thing like a Honda Civic. We can debate which is the perfect economically ideal car, but the fact that not everyone is driving the same car tells me that this only part of the story. If humans always made perfect rational economic decisions, then the entire high-performance car industry would totally implode except for a few professional racecar drivers.

I think if the Model 3 is a fun car, looks good and is a practical car, then the economics of it will go by the wayside. Maybe even the environmentalism aspect will fall by the wayside too... as it did with the Prius when gas was expensive.

The auto forum I guess would be best, but I think we should keep electric cars here, LOL. I've been looking at a used Nissan Leaf, they're cheap as hell, and the range would be fine for me since I have a handful of ICE cars already.

 

[deathBOB]

Well this forum is about mobile devices . . .

 

[RossMAN]

/skimmed thread and you nerds probably already know this but 2GB RAM confirmed.

 

[lopri]

I hear that its battery life is excellent. Other than the size of screen which is a decision consumers can competently make, the battery life was the only question mark due to its small size. With that now answered, this is a very compelling offer from Apple. Even though the bezels are thick, the phone will work comfortably with one hand for majority of people. Appearance-wise, the 5 has a such a unique and timeless design which I prefer to the 6's rather mundane (ugly, IMO) design.

For once I have nothing bad to say about a new Apple product.