Interesting financial article: "Can America Save Itself?".

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Zanix

The idea of trade though is an equation. We both deal on basis of mutual benifit. I think you're saying here that the US isn't benifiting in all these trades. Why are we trading then? What is done with the money that the houses and factories are sold for? If it ment we loose our power, why would our countries purchasing elite be giving it up?

Because the elite is getting rich by doing it. It might not be making the country money, but it's making THEM money. If they broker a deal that loses the US $5 billion but gains themself $500 million, they'd do it. It doesn't really matter to them, since they can live anywhere. They don't have to live in the US to be rich. Some people only think about themselves, and only think in the short term.

And about it being an equation, I agree. But I think that our standard of living is going down while China's and India's standard of living is going up. It's like a scale tipping in their favor. The overall equation remains balanced, but they're gaining money by us losing money.

Are you talking about companies like Walmart or Enron?

Yeah.... I've heard people say that when huge companies make money they can open up new stores, provide more jobs, provide more goods, and the economy improves. Not when they're selling us out for a selfish buck.

 

[91TTZ]

It sounds as if people are naive as to how the whole system works in the overall view. They grew up in a rich country and are used to living well. They are taught that they'll always live well, and that even if there's a downturn, they'll always emerge on top and more powerful than ever.

I think this is a naive and myopic view. I think that they're just believing what others who have grown up here have said. I think that it's possible for a depression to be permanent and kill your country. I think that that third world countries can emerge as superpowers at the expense of current superpowers who don't think it's possible.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: FlyLice

You are funny. You think when a liberal UCLA professor spews his bullsht into my ears I actually believe what he says? I actually have a brain and think for myself. LIBERAL students are the parrots who repeat the idiocy of their LIBERAL professors.

Hmm, maybe there's hope for you afterall. :beer:

But I do think that on the opposite side of the political spectrum the conservatives are just as guilty. They seem to operate on blind faith and will walk straight into a brick wall because their beliefs tell them that the wall won't be there when the impact is about to occur.

They come full-circle and are as bad as the liberals. Neither side sees reason.

 

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: FlyLice

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Although I have known people with specialized degrees that don't know crap about their subject and are able to barely get by because they know the lingo. I'm not saying that's your case though. 😛

It's one thing to be able to speak, it's another thing entirely to be able to form sentences. The former only requires that one can repeat what he hears another say. A parrot can do that. The latter requires more advanced thought.

In the case of people with degrees, one may have just been able to repeat with accuracy what their teacher taught them. They might lack the working knowledge, however, to be able to solve a problem they haven't seen before or break new ground in their field.

You are funny. You think when a liberal UCLA professor spews his bullsht into my ears I actually believe what he says? I actually have a brain and think for myself. LIBERAL students are the parrots who repeat the idiocy of their LIBERAL professors.

Cmon guys, let's not make this thread worthy of P&N

 

[FlyLice]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: FlyLice

You are funny. You think when a liberal UCLA professor spews his bullsht into my ears I actually believe what he says? I actually have a brain and think for myself. LIBERAL students are the parrots who repeat the idiocy of their LIBERAL professors.

Hmm, maybe there's hope for you afterall. :beer:

But I do think that on the opposite side of the political spectrum the conservatives are just as guilty. They seem to operate on blind faith and will walk straight into a brick wall because their beliefs tell them that the wall won't be there when the impact is about to occur.

They come full-circle and are as bad as the liberals. Neither side sees reason.

:beer: cheers

I don't take the complete conservative view either. Like they say, everything in moderation. It's all about Government Run Economy (Communism) vs Completely Free Markets (Pure Capitalism). As history has shown Communism just doesn't work in any fashion or form. Capitalism we have come to realize is the most efficient. However, history has also shown Capitalism fails once in a while (i.e. Monopolies, oligopolies forming). Blah blah i'm done.

 

[Svnla]

It is bother me greatly how the US is going down this destruction path. We spend too much and save too little (both the government and most individuals). We have money to spend billions of dollars on foreign aids, yet, don't have adequate health insurance for our own citizens.

I think one of the reasons we save too little because saving account/CD/etc. don't pay much yet you have to pay taxes on the interest and dividends. We need to correct that. We also need to take a look at the percentage/amount we spend on entitlement programs.

With the most current data from the Federal Budget Agency, 23% is spent on Social Security, 12% on Medicare, 7% on Medicaid, 6% on other Entitlements, 7% on Other Mandatories. Therefore, 55% of total buget are spend on ENTITLEMENTS. The rest are: 16% for Defense, 19% for Other Spending, and 10% for Interest. Now we all know that in order to balance a budget, you need to check every items on the budget. Sadly, the AARP and special interest groups will scream when anyone suggest any cuts on entitlements.

I hope we turn around quicky or we will be another "had been" power such as Spain, France, Great Britain.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Well said.

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I think our financial system is set up for collapse. Too much money is leaving this country. China and India are the ones making money for the products we buy. Have you noticed how their economy has been booming lately? Have you noticed how ours isn't?

The common people in this country are not making more money. The rich are, but they don't need to live here. They're rich- they'll be rich anywhere, they have no need to be an American to be rich. The common people, however, do. Chinese workers are making money and American execs are making money. But sooner or later the Chinese and Indians will realize that they do not need to work for an American corporation, and they'll begin working for their own. At that point, America will be completely bypassed, and neither the common worker nor the rich businessman will be earning anything. The rich guy is rich, he can move anywhere. That will leave the common man with nothing.

Of course I don't think it will be a total collapse, only a partial collapse. One interesting thing that happens is that when people lose enough money, they get angry. Then the population will become more nationalistic and discriminatory against other countries' products, and things will level off. Before people lose everything they'll wake up and realize that drastic times call for drastic measures.

That's the way economic progress works in a global economy. As the labor force becomes more skilled (and expensive), unskilled and semi-skilled jobs move from the more developed nations (in this case, the U.S.) to developing nations (like China and India). China and India will experience the same shifts (probably to Africa) when their workforce becomes more skilled and consequently becomes more expensive (in fact, this is already happening).

As for the savings issue, I would encourage everyone to read this article on it. It would be interesting to see what effect a consumption-based tax (as opposed to an income tax) would have on the savings rates in the U.S.

 

[FlyLice]

AARP is the most evil organization on the planet.

 

[FlyLice]

Originally posted by: MrChad

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I think our financial system is set up for collapse. Too much money is leaving this country. China and India are the ones making money for the products we buy. Have you noticed how their economy has been booming lately? Have you noticed how ours isn't?

The common people in this country are not making more money. The rich are, but they don't need to live here. They're rich- they'll be rich anywhere, they have no need to be an American to be rich. The common people, however, do. Chinese workers are making money and American execs are making money. But sooner or later the Chinese and Indians will realize that they do not need to work for an American corporation, and they'll begin working for their own. At that point, America will be completely bypassed, and neither the common worker nor the rich businessman will be earning anything. The rich guy is rich, he can move anywhere. That will leave the common man with nothing.

Of course I don't think it will be a total collapse, only a partial collapse. One interesting thing that happens is that when people lose enough money, they get angry. Then the population will become more nationalistic and discriminatory against other countries' products, and things will level off. Before people lose everything they'll wake up and realize that drastic times call for drastic measures.

That's the way economic progress works in a global economy. As the labor force becomes more skilled (and expensive), unskilled and semi-skilled jobs move from the more developed nations (in this case, the U.S.) to developing nations (like China and India). China and India will experience the same shifts (probably to Africa) when their workforce becomes more skilled and consequently becomes more expensive (in fact, this is already happening).

As for the savings issue, I would encourage everyone to read this article on it. It would be interesting to see what effect a consumption-based tax (as opposed to an income tax) would have on the savings rates in the U.S.

I, being a cheap asian, think cheap people would be very rich in a consumption based tax economy.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Skoorb
This is why I'd like a "benevolent dictatorship". Unfortunately the politicians catering to the next vote doesn't leave them able to plan anything beyond a four year stretch. If they can promise the next four years will be better than the opponent, they'll win. The current deficit is a nice example. It has flown up like a soaring eagle, and now with the US dollar sucking nuts, it's even uglier.

Heh. I'm always telling the lady that the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, exactly those words. There's no bullsh|t in a dictatorship, no worries about political capital being spend on a something the people really need but don't want.

Of course, benevolent dictatorships don't really exist, so its pure idealism.

You've also hinted to the one real flaw in our government. Its by the people for the people. But the people are stupid. And they don't know whats good for them. You can't put any ambitious ideas though because its political suicide.

Democracy is the worst government in the world, until you compare it with all the rest.
- Winston Churchill.

If you guys elect me benevolent dictator for life, I'll run everything right!

 

[ZDStout]

Right now I am just completeing my first year of college, trying to get a degree in engineering. I think part of the debt problem is brought on by the government, at least in my case. For the first time ever I am contemplating going into debt, for one reason, and that's to pay off the high cost of trying to go to college. The government offered most of their "aid" in federal loans.

 

[StageLeft]

I hope we turn around quicky or we will be another "had been" power such as Spain, France, Great Britain.

This is inevitable, but it is for any country. When it loses the hunger of getting to the top, it's difficult to stay there. There is real potential for the US to not be top dog in this century. Where was it 100 years ago? Definitely not the only superpower! Sadly, a lot of Americans have some sort of silly notion that it's their god-given right to always be a part of the strongest nation, even though it's only been that way within my parents' lifetimes.

For the first time ever I am contemplating going into debt, for one reason, and that's to pay off the high cost of trying to go to college.

And that's one of the two debts (the other being a mortgage) that you should not feel guilty about, in the majority of cases (the minority being a ridiculously expensive house or a totally useless degree that takes 7 years to get).

 

[saxophonoia]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I just basically hate most of the people on the planet. It's not "can the US save itself", it's "How long until we kill ourselves?" Humanity is like a teenager: old enough to cause real damage and too stupid to prevent it or do anything about it.

Wow. That is one of the best quotes i've ever heard. :thumbsup:

 

[Zebo]

Good read Greenspan vs. Buffet

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
It sounds as if people are naive as to how the whole system works in the overall view. They grew up in a rich country and are used to living well. They are taught that they'll always live well, and that even if there's a downturn, they'll always emerge on top and more powerful than ever.

I think this is a naive and myopic view. I think that they're just believing what others who have grown up here have said. I think that it's possible for a depression to be permanent and kill your country. I think that that third world countries can emerge as superpowers at the expense of current superpowers who don't think it's possible.

Anything is possible, but I think the senario you present is improbable. Natural resources and arable land make it unlikely the U.S. will become impoverished while 3rd world countries prosper. We live in a global economy in which we play a very large role, I simply do not share your pessimism. Does that make me myopic naive? Only if you believe your viewpoint is the only viable one, which would just be more of the elitist bullshit ATOTers are infamous for.

 

[PingSpike]

America should just do what its citizens do to solve their self inflicted financial problems, put a severed human finger in a product from a bigger richer country and then sue that country for profit.

 

[Zanix]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
America should just do what its citizens do to solve their self inflicted financial problems, put a severed human finger in a product from a bigger richer country and then sue that country for profit.

Ba-dap CHING!

 

[edro]

And congress passes a law making it tougher to claim bankruptcy... The credit card companies make it so easy to get credit cards, with huge interest rates...

I really think the new law will just increase debt. No one will actually say "Oh, I can't file bankruptcy, I guess I will just pay it all back." They will just get more credit cards and climb further into debt.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: edro13
And congress passes a law making it tougher to claim bankruptcy... The credit card companies make it so easy to get credit cards, with huge interest rates...

I really think the new law will just increase debt. No one will actually say "Oh, I can't file bankruptcy, I guess I will just pay it all back." They will just get more credit cards and climb further into debt.

What we need is stricter legislation on how much credit you can get. It amazes me that a family of 7 that has 1 person working a part time job making less than $100 a week, with an additional $800 coming in via SSI, food stamps, and medicaid, is able to take out a $20,000 loan when they already have $5000 in debt, late utility payments, and a poor credit rating.

 

[Zebo]

You guys forget the big trump card. They can "forgive" our debt. Does'nt have to be voluntary either since we are the biggest kid on the block. Heaven forbid they try and attack us, we'll nationalize all thier assets here too. Trust me. No American gonna settle for being under this supposed foreign yolk when we have the best industry in the world, the only industry that really counts when the chips are down.