Interesting Article by a Former Delta Force Operator

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: Kelemvor
It's too bad that this country has turned into a bunch of pansies because everyone wants to give the bad guy his fair chance to turn into a good guy. That obviously doesn't work. The legal system in the US is just as messed up when guilty people get let go on technicalities or get because of asshole judges.

I totally agree that once someone kills someone else, they have forfeited their right to live. Once someone takes hostages, especially at a school, they have forfeited their right to live. People that do this are no good to society or the world in general and should simply be eliminated.

You're taking a simplistic view of the matter. OBVIOUSLY no one is waiting for the bad guy to turn into a good guy. There's a case to be made that it's important to get proper intelligence, find out how many shooters there are, what kind of weapons they have, how much ammo, and to try to get a clean shot.

You're posting with the benefit of knowing all of those things.
What if it was not one but ten guys in there?
What if it was a nutjob armed with a bomb who panics and detonates?


Blindly charging in may make you feel manly, but it could get more people killed.

You missed the point.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
I just read the whole thing. This guy doesn't say anything really revolutionary or even novel. Who doesn't know this (what he wrote)? Who doesn't agree with this (what he proposes)?

A lot of people actually.

 

[m1ldslide1]

I read Eric L Haney's book "Inside Delta Force" and with the training these guys receive, they are in a different class altogether. I don't think that you can fairly draw comparisons between SWAT teams and Delta operators. It's not just that the same training isn't available to SWAT types, but it's that the vast majority of them couldn't handle the training - just like the vast majority of dedicated Army Rangers can't handle the training.

Quite honestly, I don't trust SWAT teams to rush into a school and neutralize a serious threat. I don't feel that there's anyone on the planet besides a Delta team that could be 100% trusted to carry out this task without harm to the hostages. I think that even if a SWAT team were to train day in and day out on anti-terrorist warfare that they still wouldn't be capable of successfully neutralizing any threat in a school, but not because they would be lacking in tactical skills.

Anyhow, what I'm getting around to is that the problem seems to lie with tactical leadership. This was evident in the book, and in this guy's article. Quite often the responders are ready and willing to engage a threat, but the people calling the shots are unable to make intelligent decisions. And yes, usually they're politically motivated desk-monkeys who don't have the years of experience to understand the threat or to understand their team's capabilities. They're trained in and tasked with spin control, not in the precise inner workings of the team that they're directing.

But hell, I work in IT, and isn't that the case here too?

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
I read Eric L Haney's book "Inside Delta Force" and with the training these guys receive, they are in a different class altogether. I don't think that you can fairly draw comparisons between SWAT teams and Delta operators. It's not just that the same training isn't available to SWAT types, but it's that the vast majority of them couldn't handle the training - just like the vast majority of dedicated Army Rangers can't handle the training.

Quite honestly, I don't trust SWAT teams to rush into a school and neutralize a serious threat. I don't feel that there's anyone on the planet besides a Delta team that could be 100% trusted to carry out this task without harm to the hostages. I think that even if a SWAT team were to train day in and day out on anti-terrorist warfare that they still wouldn't be capable of successfully neutralizing any threat in a school, but not because they would be lacking in tactical skills.

Anyhow, what I'm getting around to is that the problem seems to lie with tactical leadership. This was evident in the book, and in this guy's article. Quite often the responders are ready and willing to engage a threat, but the people calling the shots are unable to make intelligent decisions. And yes, usually they're politically motivated desk-monkeys who don't have the years of experience to understand the threat or to understand their team's capabilities. They're trained in and tasked with spin control, not in the precise inner workings of the team that they're directing.

But hell, I work in IT, and isn't that the case here too?

One of my favorite books. :thumbsup:

 

[Kelemvor]

Anyone see The Unit last week? Or maybe the week before? Was this exact scenario. Terrorist took over a school, they had to go in and kill the bad guys.

Sure it's TV but I have no doubt there are people that could pull that off.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Kelemvor
Anyone see The Unit last week? Or maybe the week before? Was this exact scenario. Terrorist took over a school, they had to go in and kill the bad guys.

Sure it's TV but I have no doubt there are people that could pull that off.

What's funny is that Eric Haney (who wrote Inside Delta Force) is the special consultant or whatever for that show. I've only seen one episode and parts were pretty far-fetched, but other parts seemed somewhat consistent (plausible) with stuff in the book.

 

[AnyMal]

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: Kelemvor
Anyone see The Unit last week? Or maybe the week before? Was this exact scenario. Terrorist took over a school, they had to go in and kill the bad guys.

Sure it's TV but I have no doubt there are people that could pull that off.

What's funny is that Eric Haney (who wrote Inside Delta Force) is the special consultant or whatever for that show. I've only seen one episode and parts were pretty far-fetched, but other parts seemed somewhat consistent (plausible) with stuff in the book.

Show is based on that book.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: AnyMal

Originally posted by: m1ldslide1

Originally posted by: Kelemvor
Anyone see The Unit last week? Or maybe the week before? Was this exact scenario. Terrorist took over a school, they had to go in and kill the bad guys.

Sure it's TV but I have no doubt there are people that could pull that off.

What's funny is that Eric Haney (who wrote Inside Delta Force) is the special consultant or whatever for that show. I've only seen one episode and parts were pretty far-fetched, but other parts seemed somewhat consistent (plausible) with stuff in the book.

Show is based on that book.

Yep, while the show is sometimes too hollywood, there are parts where you know that they have their stuff together on the technical advising.

 

[bdude]

So what happens when everybody has a gun in his pocket. Who's the hero, who's the enemy?

Fast action is cool and all, but war is hell. Even in the schoolyard.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: bdude
So what happens when everybody has a gun in his pocket. Who's the hero, who's the enemy?

Fast action is cool and all, but war is hell. Even in the schoolyard.

I think the idea is that more aggressive swat teams don't equal a safer schoolyard. Effective teams for this sort of thing have to be uber elite, which they currently aren't, from the top down. Pretty tough to solve this problem - or they would've already.

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: Xanis
It's hard to disagree with the author as he brings up a lot of interesting points. While just sitting around behind cover accomplishes nothing, just storming the place with no semblance of a plan can't bee good either.

In the article he makes it clear that if they are to arrive somewhere within 10 minutes or so when they have the element of surprise and the shooter is not settled in that they should take the opportunity to end the crisis right then and there. If it takes longer than that and the criminal is situated then he says planning should be done. So he isn't saying to just rush in there blindly.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: Xanis
It's hard to disagree with the author as he brings up a lot of interesting points. While just sitting around behind cover accomplishes nothing, just storming the place with no semblance of a plan can't bee good either.

In the article he makes it clear that if they are to arrive somewhere within 10 minutes or so when they have the element of surprise and the shooter is not settled in that they should take the opportunity to end the crisis right then and there. If it takes longer than that and the criminal is situated then he says planning should be done. So he isn't saying to just rush in there blindly.

:thumbsup:

 

[thomsbrain]

took about 10 seconds before the blatantly hypocritical foundation of the argument became too much for me to bear.

good idea, let's prevent violence at schools by killing students.

war is peace! all heil!

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Paul Howe was part of the incident in Somalia. He was the badass delta character in the movie.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Paul Howe was part of the incident in Somalia. He was the badass delta character in the movie.

Actually he was Jeff Sanderson...but also Hoot. Both made up all the Delta characters that did something notable that day, such as Mace going into the city as a journalist etc.

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
took about 10 seconds before the blatantly hypocritical foundation of the argument became too much for me to bear.

good idea, let's prevent violence at schools by killing students.

war is peace! all heil!

:disgust:

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: SVT Cobra

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: Kelemvor
It's too bad that this country has turned into a bunch of pansies because everyone wants to give the bad guy his fair chance to turn into a good guy. That obviously doesn't work. The legal system in the US is just as messed up when guilty people get let go on technicalities or get because of asshole judges.

I totally agree that once someone kills someone else, they have forfeited their right to live. Once someone takes hostages, especially at a school, they have forfeited their right to live. People that do this are no good to society or the world in general and should simply be eliminated.

You're taking a simplistic view of the matter. OBVIOUSLY no one is waiting for the bad guy to turn into a good guy. There's a case to be made that it's important to get proper intelligence, find out how many shooters there are, what kind of weapons they have, how much ammo, and to try to get a clean shot.

You're posting with the benefit of knowing all of those things.
What if it was not one but ten guys in there?
What if it was a nutjob armed with a bomb who panics and detonates?


Blindly charging in may make you feel manly, but it could get more people killed.

You missed the point.

You missed the point.