Question Intel's future after Pat Gelsinger

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DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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Tiles are not why Windows Phone failed. It failed because Microsoft charged royalties for it, while Google charged nothing for Android. Microsoft enforced minimum hardware standards for Windows Phone, while Google didn't for Android.
Everything matters, down to the UI.

The entirety of the internet is being optimized for tiny screen real estate. That's why there's complaints that it's slowing down for PC users such as the hamburger interface icon, needing extra steps to accommodate for 5-inch touch. Now tell me in light of that how does Tiles make sense when it takes up 5-6x the size of icons?

Steve Jobs' philosophy was to make things as simple as reasonably possible. Icons that are responsive that opens in a single touch is what mobile OSes are. Something Windows could have done years before Android.

Tablet PC has existed for ages. But it had barely 2 hour battery life, it was heavy at 3-5 pounds, it's resistive touch display was not very responsive and the Windows OS was not optimized for it either and the overall computer was slow.

Windows 8/8.1 was also a failure on the PC space too. It was the same idea as Intel pivoting 22nm for tiny market mobile Atom and sacrificing laptop/desktop products to do so.

I'm saying they didn't need a dramatic pivot to something completely new. It could have been done as an evolution to what already exists. The innovators dilemma applies to both MS and Intel, not just one or the other. They didn't want to sacrifice their cash cow.

The PC ecosystem is slow and resistant to change. If the x86 ecosystem does survive, then it's thanks to Apple and the subsequent mobile revolution that would have lit the fire underneath them.
 
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Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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oh no, that's not the reason.
It failed because they pressed the reset button on the entire software ecosystem twice in a span of two years, just as Android/iOS duo were reaching critical mass in devices shipped and ISV support.

True they obsoleted Windows Phone 7 when they introduced the next version, but it was already over by then they just didn't know it.
 

gdansk

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Intel is merely incompetent or mismanaged. For all of Pat's tenure they had been throwing what money they have at trying to make a better process and better core. And they really need to do the latter. It just sucks to suck.

Windows isn't Microsoft's main concern for some time now. They're Apple-tier profitable despite losing mobile. Windows sucks not only by incompetence, they're happily milking it. But it was very bold to decide to make the user experience worse in order to push other products. But I guess it's working for them, so many people now know that OneDrive exists because it deleted their files.
 

Thunder 57

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Aug 19, 2007
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Everything matters, down to the UI.

The entirety of the internet is being optimized for tiny screen real estate. That's why there's complaints that it's slowing down for PC users such as the hamburger interface icon, needing extra steps to accommodate for 5-inch touch. Now tell me in light of that how does Tiles make sense when it takes up 5-6x the size of icons?
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I really dislike that. I don't understand why so many people use their phone as their primary Internet access device. I'll have people text me stuff that I end up emailing to myself so I can read it on a nice monitor. Or they'll ask me to look at a menu through a text. No thanks. I'd say it's a generational thing but people my age and older do it to. Try browsing this (or any) forum on a phone, it sucks.
 

poke01

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2022
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I bet you Intel would be a player in the phone space today.
No, i don't think so because not only did Intel stuff up Atom, they stuffed up modems as well.

Skymont doesn't have enough 1t perf compared to the ARM camp now and Lion Cove is just too power hungry.
One cannot say if X happened earlier then Y would've happened, cause then I could say why isn't Unified Core ready in 2025 because then Intel would be on top again.
 

511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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No, i don't think so because not only did Intel stuff up Atom, they stuffed up modems as well.

Skymont doesn't have enough 1t perf compared to the ARM camp now and Lion Cove is just too power hungry.
One cannot say if X happened earlier then Y would've happened, cause then I could say why isn't Unified Core ready in 2025 because then Intel would be on top again.
Cause some stupid people thought royal cove was the savior but it wasn't it was bad
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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@511 before OG Zen perf numbers got revealed, a number of forumites thought AMD lacked the resources to design a new "big" core as we call them now. AMD reps claimed at the time that Zen would share the DNA of both construction and cat cores, in the sense that AMD learned to make high frequency designs with dozers and efficient designs with meow cores.

The Intel "unified core" does not have to be a pure Atom design/evolution, the important part here is whether the minds behind the Mont family have won the internal game of thrones or not.
 

coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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I mean they had to have since Unified Core is a thing.
Unified Core is just a name. Royal Core was also a thing, except the "thing" kept changing. SMT got "turned off" and back on in less than a year. 18A was the node to make IFS great again after 3 years of kung-fu focus.


I think it's important to acknowledge that Intel is a very fluid environment at the moment, even if many of us agree the Mont family team is the most likely to lead a new design effort.
 

511

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Jul 12, 2024
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Unified Core is just a name. Royal Core was also a thing, except the "thing" kept changing. SMT got "turned off" and back on in less than a year. 18A was the node to make IFS great again after 3 years of kung-fu focus.
Intel's botching of their design rule is the biggest reason they are unable to attract any clients aka they are still stuck in their own.
 

whoshere

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Feb 28, 2020
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Unified Core is just a name. Royal Core was also a thing, except the "thing" kept changing. SMT got "turned off" and back on in less than a year. 18A was the node to make IFS great again after 3 years of kung-fu focus.


I think it's important to acknowledge that Intel is a very fluid environment at the moment, even if many of us agree the Mont family team is the most likely to lead a new design effort.

It's crazy: 18A was ready a year ago and it's still not ready today. And AFAIK Intel has produced nothing for third parties on their 18A node. When was Intel lying I wonder?
 
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poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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It's crazy: 18A was ready a year ago and it's still now ready today. And AFAIK Intel has produced nothing for third parties on their 18A node. When was Intel lying I wonder?
It doesn't matter now. All that is important is 18A Cougar Cove and the frequency it tops out at.
 

Tarkin77

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Mar 10, 2018
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The question should be: When was Intel NOT lying? I’m baffled that any company still does business with them. Their roadmaps are consistently unreliable, and they’ve proven this time and time again. Nothing but empty promises as long as I can remember.
 
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511

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Jul 12, 2024
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It's crazy: 18A was ready a year ago and it's still not ready today. And AFAIK Intel has produced nothing for third parties on their 18A node. When was Intel lying I wonder?
The roadmap publicly stated manufacturing ready there is a difference between HVM readiness and in HVM they never stated in HVM 2024 so they played by words.

The question should be: When was Intel NOT lying? I’m baffled that any company still does business with them. Their roadmaps are consistently unreliable, and they’ve proven this time and time again. Nothing but empty promises as long as I can remember.
Well us and their customers are two different things. OEM don't get second hand info like us
 
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Joe NYC

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.
I really dislike that. I don't understand why so many people use their phone as their primary Internet access device. I'll have people text me stuff that I end up emailing to myself so I can read it on a nice monitor. Or they'll ask me to look at a menu through a text. No thanks. I'd say it's a generational thing but people my age and older do it to. Try browsing this (or any) forum on a phone, it sucks.

Same.

Or on Twiiter, I bookmark stuff to read later on a big monitor, or play the sound which I would not do on the phone in public...

Reading a big PDF on the phone - no thank you...
 
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Thunder 57

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Same.

Or on Twiiter, I bookmark stuff to read later on a big monitor, or play the sound which I would not do on the phone in public...

Reading a big PDF on the phone - no thank you...

It's mind boggling who stupid simple people will play videos or music without headphones on a plane or train. It should be legal to tar and feather them.
 

poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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It's mind boggling who stupid simple people will play videos or music without headphones on a plane or train. It should be legal to tar and feather them.
I mean it depends on the situation, if it’s an emergency or if the environment is really loud. But on a quiet bus or plane absolutely not, use headphones
 

511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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It's mind boggling who stupid simple people will play videos or music without headphones on a plane or train. It should be legal to tar and feather them.
Yeah I hate this also people playing TikTok or Insta reels in public places on loudspeaker.

Why are we discussing this though was Pat Gelsinger playing loud Bible in Public Place?
 

DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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Unified Core is just a name. Royal Core was also a thing, except the "thing" kept changing. SMT got "turned off" and back on in less than a year. 18A was the node to make IFS great again after 3 years of kung-fu focus.
It's just like the Core vs Netburst scenario. They called Core as combining Netburst with Pentium M, but it was a natural evolution of Pentium M. A total pivot with an entirely new architecture doesn't happen. Zen was new for AMD, but many fundamentals were shared with pre-Bulldozer chips and Intel cores as well. The saying why RYC did not do so well was that they didn't have experience making a core built for actual customers.

Same thing is likely going to happen here. Arctic Wolf is an evolution of Skymont, and Unified Core is a grown up version of Arctic Wolf.
No, i don't think so because not only did Intel stuff up Atom, they stuffed up modems as well.
I'm saying being in 2 years earlier would have made the difference. They would have been forced to put more resources into advancing if they had enough marketshare.
Skymont doesn't have enough 1t perf compared to the ARM camp now and Lion Cove is just too power hungry.
The biggest barrier for Medfield wasn't performance as much as application compatibility. 2 years earlier would have had enough x86 compatible Android binaries. One big complaints for Intel based phones were that some just did not work well.

Performance would have mattered in that regard too of course. Because they had the same in-order core for 4 years. It was Moorestown in 2010 and Medfield in 2012, with the exact same core, only difference in that Moorestown was shoddy for phones and Medfield was decent. LG was in line to use Moorestown, but it never materialized, because the platform was crap.

Remember the in-order Atom was competitive in performance with the out of order Cortex A9 chips of that time. If 2012 it was acceptable, in 2010 it would have made real impact.

Could the Atom core development been accelerated even further in that case? We can't say for sure, but many times Intel has said they wanted to keep a 10x performance gap between Atom and Core. If they took 1/4 of the whole market? Then this mentality would have changed quick. Also remember the anemic 4EU graphics in Bay Trail Atom? It was rumored by those in the know that in the planning stages it had half the EUs. The mobile market forced them to do better.

Every day, every month, every year it passed they lost the opportunity to take part of that market.

Also being actively in the market forces them to do things they wouldn't have done otherwise. I argued that Intel had zero motivation for drivers because they don't directly deal with gamers. As soon as ARC dGPU came out, their driver effort ramped up greatly. It's a feedback loop between seller and buyer.

Everything else is minute detail. They missed the big picture by not pivoting to mobile earlier and having capable chips available so vendors could just choose Intel rather than Intel going "pick me, pick me" after everything was pretty much over.
 
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