Intelligent Design-Warning some Religion

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BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Gurck

Actually, forget it. You're either extraordinarily stupid, stubborn or a troll. You're going over points you've already lost, this is about the fifth time you've made the watchmaker argument. Whichever of the three above possibilities is true, you've got enough problems as it is. Have a good one.
Man, give it a rest. You haven't presented any credible arguments at all in this thread or refuted anything related to ID in the least. Your first post started with rhetoric and posturing -- and you ended with the same --- """ ?oh my, how are we going to reason with people that don?t believe in evolution ? """ and so on, and so on ....... .

It would seem the ID challenge to evolution has gone over your head. ID has sunk the evolution boat, people like you just don't realize it yet.

You have a good day too.

Damn, people like you scare me. Evolution is so damn simple at its core, people cant just accept it. Ill take up your challenge, but like all others before me, I know damn well that youre just a troll and can't even understand a simple thing.

The starting point of evolution is that inanimate matter could all of a sudden gather itself up and start producing these complex machines that we eventually call animals that are running around acting in a purposeful manner. So how does inanimate purposeless matter through the process of this so-called evolution produce things that act with a purpose? If evolution is blind purposelessness, then how does it produce things with a purpose? If you don?t see a problem here -- then you have a problem. The blind and completely dumb watch maker making a watch. To get from inanimate matter to animals composed of this matter that are acting for a purpose requires knowledge and intelligent design. Genetic mutations and natural selection are simply not capable of providing this.

Lets do this slowly so you can understand it point by point. In order to have evolution, you need three things:

1: Replicators
2: Mutation of some sort (Copying errors, outside influence)
3: An environment with resources

That is all. You do not need design to create a replicator. It could be as simple as a chemical structure that bonds to a like copy of itself...thus creating a copy of itself. Then each copy, could make a copy of itself. There is no purpose to be read into, just a blind replicator chemical structure replicating itself, simply because thats what happens when you have molecules in that structure. Probably took billions of years for this eventual structure to be formed, simply by chance. That is the only part of evolution that is truly "blind". This could form by blind chance, through billions of years of almost infinite amounts of atoms/molecules interacting simply because theyre in proximity of each other. The experiments showing how simple amino acids can be formed using electricity certainly prove that.

Of course there are outside influences that change this structure, statistically over time...UV rays, copying errors etc. Its important to know that the vast, vast majority of changes are negative. But every now and then, some change may have been made that makes it just a bit of a better replicator, more stable etc...statistically, over long periods of time, that new "strain" will do better than the old strain, simply because its more efficient. Given enough time, and the right resources, it may form a configuration with some sort of barrier. Those replicators with protection certainly have the edge up. As the environment gets more limited, necessary resources are harder to come by. Then imagine a mutation which gives it some sort of locomotion, flagella etc, even if its random, aimless...it still has access to more resources than the drifting replicators and will soon begin to become more numerous, simply because its more likely to replicate. Over VAST periods of time, these changes really start to add, and you have basically, single celled organisms. The original replicator is essentially, the "DNA" of the cell. Imagine the cell having an ability to "sniff" out necessary resources...it is just chemically drawn to what it needs. Is that purpose? Now say that the "sniffer" only turns on when it is in need of something, this certainly gives it an advantage, and can all be done biochemically, but now you have an organism that seeks what it needs...is THAT purpose?

There is a very, very thick and fuzzy line between what is and isnt purpose.

Fast forward long enough, out of the innummerable trillion quadrillion gazillion amazingly ridiculously high number of generations of these simple organisms, symbiotic relations take place, where two cells can specialize in their own niche, and benefit from each other...given enough time, they will merge, and we will begin to have multi-cellular organisms. Then like a human society, each cell can "specialize in labor", and form different structures etc. All over VAST VAST expanses of time, do these random errors accumulate STATISTICALLY to evolve. Then throw some neurons into the mix, and perhaps that is where true "purpose" comes from. But purpose itself, is an evolutionary adaption...those organisms that stumbled upon the ability to direct themselves to what they needed, whether its blindly biochemical, or acted upon by a nervous system, are simply going to be able to exploit resources that were previously unexploited.

This doesnt necessarily spell the end of all other organisms, its just a new niche to exploit. Theres still tons of bacteria and microorganisms out there, still very "successful" doing what theyve always done.

So go billions of years ahead, up to the mammals. Every organism is exploiting the resources of their own niche...some are predators selected for their ability to physically catch prey (cheetahs running fast), some prey selected for their ability to physically escape prey (gazells running fast), or a turtle, with a thick shell of armor. Some mammals evolve the ability to outsmart both prey and predator, which is certainly an as yet fully exploited niche. Now that that path has been taken, you will soon have smart mammals, who not only have to outsmart their dumb competitors (turtles, just flip em over and crack em open!), but their already smart co-mammals. Thus an "intelligence arms race" will develop, with even more refined cognitive abilities. Hello man.

And to answer your previous question:

This is ridiculous. How does a cow even know it can eat the grass that will provide it with nutrition in the first place -- why doesn?t it try and eat rocks? Does it know the chemical makeup of grass will provide it with nutrition -- and the 100's if not 1000?s of chemical processes in it?s digestive system to process the grass? How does a cow even know that it has to eat to survive? The cow doesn't know any of this. All these things require a detailed and extensive knowledge of the biochemical makeup of the environment -- what's edible, what isn?t, and the 1000's of complex chemical processes inside the cows body. Information. Information that is detectable and measurable scientifically.

You would not have a cow, or anything even close to a complex mammal, if the organism was not able to get resources from its environment. Those organisms would not be able to replicate, and thus would not be here!

Cows that eat rocks don't survive to procreate. And if that doesnt satisfy you, Ill give you a simple, no need to even bring evolution into it argument. A cow comes from a cow, and cows eat grass. Baby cow will see mother cow eating grass. Baby cow which was previously starving, just realized that eating grass fufills its hunger. Although I can guarantee you baby cows are not that stupid, and grass just plain looks delicious to them.

Do YOU have an extensive knowledge of the biochemical makeup of the environment? From the sounds of it, definitely not. How did YOU know what to eat?
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
The "Theory of Natural Gestation", i.e. that a human baby grows from a
single cell, is a lie. Anyone with a knowledge of simple statistics
can see this easily. A human being does not grow from an egg and
sperm as "Science" would have us believe. We do not come from eggs,
like chickens. A human being is created in the womb by the Creator,
in his own image.

The proof is obvious. A human baby has an estimated 5 TRILLION cells.
They consist of hundreds of different types of cells, each of which
serves a particular purpose. "Science" would have us believe that all
5 trillion of these cells, in all their precise types and functions,
somehow magically manufacture themselves at the right time, then
mystically travel to just the right place and begin performing their
allocated function on cue. This is about equivalent in probability to
having the complex components of a fleet of 747s assembling themselves
from a bunch of metal scraps, then moving themselves to their
appropriate positions and fastening themselves in, activating
themselves, and flying off into the sunset! Boeing could save a pile
of money in labor costs with that manufacturing process!

Let's take a look at the statistics. First of all, a single cell is
extremely complex, and the difference between cell types is
tremendous. The idea that a single cell would be able to produce each
type of cell required seems ridiculous to the average intelligence and
rightly so (every seen a liver spontaneously change into a brain?).
However, let's grant this so that we can continue. Let's assume there
are 200 different types of types of cells (a low estimate), and that
they are approximately equal in number. That would mean that any
single cell would have a 1 in 200 chance of being in the right place
at the right time. The probability of getting a baby randomly
creating itself, then, is equivalent to the probability of throwing a
200-sided dice and getting the right answer 5 trillion times in a row!
The odds of that happening are one in 200 to the power of 5 trillion!
That's equal to 2 to the power of 38 trillion, which means that if
cells can replicate themselves every 4 hours it would still take 152
trillion hours before you would expect to generate enough cells to
have a chance of getting 5 trillion cells in the proper configuration.
Not only would mom be getting a bit old at that point, but she would
be getting quite large as well - like about half the size of the known
universe!

Well, says science, the basic structure forms in the first few days
and from there is just like-cells replicating themselves. OK, lets
say that only 5 million cells (one-millionth of the final total) of
approximately the proper shape and configuration would be required.
That's much more reasonable - the probability of getting a set of 5
million cells in the proper configuration is one in 200 to the power
of 5 million. Mom would only be a few thousand years old by the time
that happened.

Obviously, this theory of natural gestation is simply impossible. To
what lengths will science go to deny the role of the Creator in human
development? There is no solid evidence of any kind to support
natural gestation - that's why it's just a theory, and will remain so
until scientists remove their blinders, open their eyes and see the
truth.

 

yukichigai

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2003
6,404
0
76
Oh goodie, now I'm going to get on a religion rant. Wheeee.

It always occured to me that God, being all-knowing and all-seeing, would have absolutely no difficulty poking a certain amino acid chain at just the right time to make it eventually evolve into sentient life. I mean it's God; theoretically He can do anything, so why is it too hard to imagine that He started up the ol' evolutionary engine and let it go wherever it wanted to? Or hell, maybe He created the whole universe and just decided to see what happened. Who's to say? My beliefs are somewhere in that area. It doesn't necessarily preclude Him taking interest in us as a race, or much of anything else in the Bible, but I don't buy creationism. I don't think Genesis is meant to be taken literally.

Now I do think there's Intelligent Design in the fabric of the universe; the math of certain things is just too... neat. For example, the formula for the energy of a moving object is m(v^2)/2. Now it's been a while since Physics 1, but there are -- no exaggeration -- at least 10 other formulas for completely different variables to compute energy that all follow the same form. Energy of electricity, Energy of heat, etc. etc. all of it follows the form x(y^2)/2. It's like finding the Easter Eggs of the universe.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Originally posted by: cquark
The "Theory of Natural Gestation", i.e. that a human baby grows from a
single cell, is a lie. Anyone with a knowledge of simple statistics
can see this easily. A human being does not grow from an egg and
sperm as "Science" would have us believe. We do not come from eggs,
like chickens. A human being is created in the womb by the Creator,
in his own image.

The proof is obvious. A human baby has an estimated 5 TRILLION cells.
They consist of hundreds of different types of cells, each of which
serves a particular purpose. "Science" would have us believe that all
5 trillion of these cells, in all their precise types and functions,
somehow magically manufacture themselves at the right time, then
mystically travel to just the right place and begin performing their
allocated function on cue. This is about equivalent in probability to
having the complex components of a fleet of 747s assembling themselves
from a bunch of metal scraps, then moving themselves to their
appropriate positions and fastening themselves in, activating
themselves, and flying off into the sunset! Boeing could save a pile
of money in labor costs with that manufacturing process!

Let's take a look at the statistics. First of all, a single cell is
extremely complex, and the difference between cell types is
tremendous. The idea that a single cell would be able to produce each
type of cell required seems ridiculous to the average intelligence and
rightly so (every seen a liver spontaneously change into a brain?).
However, let's grant this so that we can continue. Let's assume there
are 200 different types of types of cells (a low estimate), and that
they are approximately equal in number. That would mean that any
single cell would have a 1 in 200 chance of being in the right place
at the right time. The probability of getting a baby randomly
creating itself, then, is equivalent to the probability of throwing a
200-sided dice and getting the right answer 5 trillion times in a row!
The odds of that happening are one in 200 to the power of 5 trillion!
That's equal to 2 to the power of 38 trillion, which means that if
cells can replicate themselves every 4 hours it would still take 152
trillion hours before you would expect to generate enough cells to
have a chance of getting 5 trillion cells in the proper configuration.
Not only would mom be getting a bit old at that point, but she would
be getting quite large as well - like about half the size of the known
universe!

Well, says science, the basic structure forms in the first few days
and from there is just like-cells replicating themselves. OK, lets
say that only 5 million cells (one-millionth of the final total) of
approximately the proper shape and configuration would be required.
That's much more reasonable - the probability of getting a set of 5
million cells in the proper configuration is one in 200 to the power
of 5 million. Mom would only be a few thousand years old by the time
that happened.

Obviously, this theory of natural gestation is simply impossible. To
what lengths will science go to deny the role of the Creator in human
development? There is no solid evidence of any kind to support
natural gestation - that's why it's just a theory, and will remain so
until scientists remove their blinders, open their eyes and see the
truth.

Take a biology class, please.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,548
7
81
Originally posted by: yukichigai
Oh goodie, now I'm going to get on a religion rant. Wheeee.

It always occured to me that God, being all-knowing and all-seeing, would have absolutely no difficulty poking a certain amino acid chain at just the right time to make it eventually evolve into sentient life. I mean it's God; theoretically He can do anything, so why is it too hard to imagine that He started up the ol' evolutionary engine and let it go wherever it wanted to? Or hell, maybe He created the whole universe and just decided to see what happened. Who's to say? My beliefs are somewhere in that area. It doesn't necessarily preclude Him taking interest in us as a race, or much of anything else in the Bible, but I don't buy creationism. I don't think Genesis is meant to be taken literally.

Now I do think there's Intelligent Design in the fabric of the universe; the math of certain things is just too... neat. For example, the formula for the energy of a moving object is m(v^2)/2. Now it's been a while since Physics 1, but there are -- no exaggeration -- at least 10 other formulas for completely different variables to compute energy that all follow the same form. Energy of electricity, Energy of heat, etc. etc. all of it follows the form x(y^2)/2. It's like finding the Easter Eggs of the universe.

Have you read Contact by Carl Sagan? This post reminded me of it a bit. You know your sh!t eh? :)
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
0
0
Originally posted by: cquark
The "Theory of Natural Gestation", i.e. that a human baby grows from a
single cell, is a lie. Anyone with a knowledge of simple statistics
can see this easily. A human being does not grow from an egg and
sperm as "Science" would have us believe. We do not come from eggs,
like chickens. A human being is created in the womb by the Creator,
in his own image.

The proof is obvious. A human baby has an estimated 5 TRILLION cells.
They consist of hundreds of different types of cells, each of which
serves a particular purpose. "Science" would have us believe that all
5 trillion of these cells, in all their precise types and functions,
somehow magically manufacture themselves at the right time, then
mystically travel to just the right place and begin performing their
allocated function on cue. This is about equivalent in probability to
having the complex components of a fleet of 747s assembling themselves
from a bunch of metal scraps, then moving themselves to their
appropriate positions and fastening themselves in, activating
themselves, and flying off into the sunset! Boeing could save a pile
of money in labor costs with that manufacturing process!

Let's take a look at the statistics. First of all, a single cell is
extremely complex, and the difference between cell types is
tremendous. The idea that a single cell would be able to produce each
type of cell required seems ridiculous to the average intelligence and
rightly so (every seen a liver spontaneously change into a brain?).
However, let's grant this so that we can continue. Let's assume there
are 200 different types of types of cells (a low estimate), and that
they are approximately equal in number. That would mean that any
single cell would have a 1 in 200 chance of being in the right place
at the right time. The probability of getting a baby randomly
creating itself, then, is equivalent to the probability of throwing a
200-sided dice and getting the right answer 5 trillion times in a row!
The odds of that happening are one in 200 to the power of 5 trillion!
That's equal to 2 to the power of 38 trillion, which means that if
cells can replicate themselves every 4 hours it would still take 152
trillion hours before you would expect to generate enough cells to
have a chance of getting 5 trillion cells in the proper configuration.
Not only would mom be getting a bit old at that point, but she would
be getting quite large as well - like about half the size of the known
universe!

Well, says science, the basic structure forms in the first few days
and from there is just like-cells replicating themselves. OK, lets
say that only 5 million cells (one-millionth of the final total) of
approximately the proper shape and configuration would be required.
That's much more reasonable - the probability of getting a set of 5
million cells in the proper configuration is one in 200 to the power
of 5 million. Mom would only be a few thousand years old by the time
that happened.

Obviously, this theory of natural gestation is simply impossible. To
what lengths will science go to deny the role of the Creator in human
development? There is no solid evidence of any kind to support
natural gestation - that's why it's just a theory, and will remain so
until scientists remove their blinders, open their eyes and see the
truth.


You're joking. Please tell me that this is a spoof...
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,433
18,397
136
Originally posted by: cquark
The proof is obvious. A human baby has an estimated 5 TRILLION cells.
They consist of hundreds of different types of cells, each of which
serves a particular purpose. "Science" would have us believe that all
5 trillion of these cells, in all their precise types and functions,
somehow magically manufacture themselves at the right time, then
mystically travel to just the right place and begin performing their
allocated function on cue. This is about equivalent in probability to
having the complex components of a fleet of 747s assembling themselves
from a bunch of metal scraps, then moving themselves to their
appropriate positions and fastening themselves in, activating
themselves, and flying off into the sunset! Boeing could save a pile
of money in labor costs with that manufacturing process!

The fundamental problem with this silly comparison is that cells are organic material, and 747s are constructed of inorganic material. Find a more reasonable comparison, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

Let's take a look at the statistics. First of all, a single cell is
extremely complex, and the difference between cell types is
tremendous. The idea that a single cell would be able to produce each
type of cell required seems ridiculous to the average intelligence and
rightly so (every seen a liver spontaneously change into a brain?).
However, let's grant this so that we can continue.

Again with a silly comparison; I don't believe the fact that a liver doesn't suddenly turn into a brain has any bearing on anything. I find it interesting that whoever wrote this (you?) mentioned the average intelligence; are you trying to say only a person of above average intelligence could understand the idea?
This seems to either be straight from an apologetics manual or from someone who's read a lot of them.
 

jvarszegi

Senior member
Aug 9, 2004
721
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: jvarszegi
Some of what you say is interesting, but some of it's tripe. Forgive me for that, but honestly, you say that planning ability arose because we didn't have a sense to, um, predict the future? Also, I take issue with this statement:

Perfection implies and involves the cessation of advancement, and that in itself is imperfect.

That doesn't make sense. If you want to say that perfection is impossible for some reason, come out and say that-- not some nebulous crap like that. Very few things are their own antitheses. Try to flesh that statement out and you'll understand what I'm saying. It is impressive-sounding, though; I'll grant you that.

There is no joke being played on you besides that which you imagine.

Free your mind, eh? Heh.

The single biggest reason not to believe in ID is that there's no good reason to believe in it, at least no logical reason. I don't (can't) believe in things without some basic foundation of logical sense.
I wasn't suggesting that you (or anyone else) believe in ID. Especially not the way the Fundies are jumping all over it. Nor would I suggest that people believe in random chance or monkeys at typewriters.

But if you didn't understand a single word I posted, why didn't you just come out and say that?

Oh, I understood it. But to say that ID makes sense because things "seem too orderly for chance", etc. is just a way of putting your feelings (without logical basis) into language that some people find convincing-- or, rather, comforting. The impact of science and engineering on our everyday lives is unmistakable; we live in completely different fashion from how we did a hundred years ago, let alone two thousand. Meanwhile, the Bible has never changed (except for mistranslations, similar to mutational copying mistakes), although dogma does change slowly over time. The stress caused by what people see and what they're taught in church leads to a huge amount of stress, which is relieved by accepting a theory like ID or creationism and afterwards not thinking about it very hard.
 

yukichigai

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2003
6,404
0
76
Originally posted by: meltdown75
Originally posted by: yukichigai
Oh goodie, now I'm going to get on a religion rant. Wheeee.

It always occured to me that God, being all-knowing and all-seeing, would have absolutely no difficulty poking a certain amino acid chain at just the right time to make it eventually evolve into sentient life. I mean it's God; theoretically He can do anything, so why is it too hard to imagine that He started up the ol' evolutionary engine and let it go wherever it wanted to? Or hell, maybe He created the whole universe and just decided to see what happened. Who's to say? My beliefs are somewhere in that area. It doesn't necessarily preclude Him taking interest in us as a race, or much of anything else in the Bible, but I don't buy creationism. I don't think Genesis is meant to be taken literally.

Now I do think there's Intelligent Design in the fabric of the universe; the math of certain things is just too... neat. For example, the formula for the energy of a moving object is m(v^2)/2. Now it's been a while since Physics 1, but there are -- no exaggeration -- at least 10 other formulas for completely different variables to compute energy that all follow the same form. Energy of electricity, Energy of heat, etc. etc. all of it follows the form x(y^2)/2. It's like finding the Easter Eggs of the universe.

Have you read Contact by Carl Sagan? This post reminded me of it a bit. You know your sh!t eh? :)
I haven't read any Carl Sagan, though I did watch the movie Contact. Not quite the same. :p

But from what I understand my beliefs are at least a little compatible with Sagan. And as a scientist, it makes some amount of sense.

Go back just a few decades and much of today's science would be almost impossible to grasp or comprehend. I think us, today, asking for proof of God is like a neanderthal asking for proof that Quarks exist. There's no way we can comprehend the concepts required to prove or disprove God's existence(sp?).

Not really tied in with Intelligent Design, just a little more of my philosophy.
 

yukichigai

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2003
6,404
0
76
Originally posted by: BD2003
You can't prove or disprove god's existence, unfortunately.
I think there's a way, but not one we can understand. But that's just a theory.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,506
2
81
ID sounds alot more scientific than creationism doesn't it? In the end though its just the same thing. Personally, I believe in science.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Originally posted by: yukichigai
Originally posted by: BD2003
You can't prove or disprove god's existence, unfortunately.
I think there's a way, but not one we can understand. But that's just a theory.

In other words, there is no way. :p