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Intelligence Court Rules Wiretapping Power Legal

winnar111

Banned
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...on/16fisa.html?_r=2&hp

WASHINGTON ? A federal intelligence court, in a rare public opinion, issued a major ruling validating the power of the president and Congress to wiretap international phone calls and intercept e-mail messages without a specific court order, even when Americans? private communications may be involved.

The court decision, made in August 2008 by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, came in an unclassified, redacted form.

The decision marks the first time since the disclosure of the National Security Agency?s warrantless eavesdropping program three years ago that an appellate court has addressed the constitutionality of the federal government?s wiretapping powers. In validating the government?s wide authority to collect foreign intelligence, it may offer legal credence to the Bush administration?s repeated assertions that the president has the power to act without specific court approval in ordering national security eavesdropping that may involve Americans.

The Aug. 22 appeals court decision upheld a secret ruling issued last year by the intelligence court that it oversees, known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance, or FISA, court. In that initial opinion, the secret court found that Congress had acted within its authority in August 2007 when it passed a hotly debated law known as the Protect America Act, which gave the executive branch broad power to eavesdrop on international communications.

?The Department of Justice is pleased with this important ruling by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which upholds the constitutionality of foreign intelligence surveillance conducted under the Protect America Act of 2007,? a Justice Department statement said.

The court ruling grew out of a previously undisclosed challenge from a telecommunications provider, which questioned the constitutional authority of the executive branch in ordering it to capture and turn over international communications without court approval.

The telecommunications company, which was not identified, refused to comply and instead challenged its legal basis under the 2007 law.

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies? challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

The opinion did not directly rule on the legality of the once-secret operation authorized by President Bush between October 2001 and early 2007, which allowed the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international communications of Americans suspected of ties to terrorists. The disclosure of the program?s existence in The New York Times in December 2005 set off a national debate on wiretapping, privacy and the limits of presidential power. Critics charged that Mr. Bush had violated a 1978 law requiring that the government obtain a court order to listen in on Americans? communications.

Still, the new ruling is expected to have broad implications for federal wiretapping law, because it is the first time that any appeals court has ruled on the constitutional question of the president?s wiretapping power.

It could also influence a number of court challenges now pending in federal court in California against telecommunications companies that took part in the N.S.A. program. Last year, Congress approved legal immunity against lawsuits for the telecommunications companies, but a federal judge has yet to decide whether the lawsuits should be thrown out.

The Protect America Act was a temporary, six-month measure that gave the president the authority to collect international phone calls and e-mail messages in large batches in search of possible terrorist connections without getting individual warrants. The international communications of Americans could be collected, so long as the target of the wiretapping operations was outside the United States.

The law drew strong objections from congressional Democrats, who blocked its renewal in early 2008 despite repeated warnings from President Bush that national security would be compromised. Ultimately, Congress approved a plan last June that authorized the same basic framework for international eavesdropping ? along with long-sought immunity for the phone companies ? but added some restrictions.

Barack Obama, then a United States senator, was highly critical of the presidential wiretapping power claimed by Mr. Bush, and threatened to filibuster the final bill. But he ultimately voted for it, angering some of his liberal supporters. His administration is expected to examine possible changes in wiretapping law and operations, a review that will probably be affected by the findings of the FISA appeals court.

The FISA court and the review court operate in secrecy. The appellate court has issued only one other major ruling in its 30-year history.


About time. Now the fringe ACLU lefties can go STFU and patriots at the NSA can continue protecting America.

God help them; since their new President is against the mission.
 
Your commentary is ridiculous. I value my right to privacy and have a phone conversation without having the government listen in. And since when is blindly defending America by stepping on the Constitution (as was done with warrantless wiretapping) patriotic? I would think a true patriot would be defending the United States from threats from within as well as from outside the US; defending against threats from within by defending the Constitution.

The biggest issue was government listening in without getting a warrant from the rubber-stamp FISA court first. If they got a warrant, okay, whatever, carry on. I just want oversight of the executive since our country is based around balance and separation of powers.
 
Originally posted by: winnar111

About time. Now the fringe ACLU lefties can go STFU and patriots at the NSA can continue protecting America.

Guess you don't care about your privacy..... Keep this in mind the next time your gf/bf/wife/husband/so emails/texts you dirty pictures that you may not be the only one viewing them...
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: OrByte
The OP doesn't know the meaning of the word "patriot"

The OP doesn't know a lot of things, but that never stopped him before.

Sounds like some others on this forum about just about anything from gas, to wars with China, to life on Mars....
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Your commentary is ridiculous. I value my right to privacy and have a phone conversation without having the government listen in. And since when is blindly defending America by stepping on the Constitution (as was done with warrantless wiretapping) patriotic? I would think a true patriot would be defending the United States from threats from within as well as from outside the US; defending against threats from within by defending the Constitution.

The biggest issue was government listening in without getting a warrant from the rubber-stamp FISA court first. If they got a warrant, okay, whatever, carry on. I just want oversight of the executive since our country is based around balance and separation of powers.

Nobody's stepping on the constitution. There's just a few whining lefties.
 
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

^^ *sigh* true.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

You're just a whining leftie that wants to destroy America. Why do you hate America so much eskimospy?

lol
 
Secret courts with secret proceedings. Sounds utterly un-American to me, not patriotic at all. What kind of judge would agree to sit on such a court?
 
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Your commentary is ridiculous. I value my right to privacy and have a phone conversation without having the government listen in. And since when is blindly defending America by stepping on the Constitution (as was done with warrantless wiretapping) patriotic? I would think a true patriot would be defending the United States from threats from within as well as from outside the US; defending against threats from within by defending the Constitution.

The biggest issue was government listening in without getting a warrant from the rubber-stamp FISA court first. If they got a warrant, okay, whatever, carry on. I just want oversight of the executive since our country is based around balance and separation of powers.

Nobody's stepping on the constitution. There's just a few whining lefties.

Lefties are not the only people that have problems with this sort of thing. I know quite a few right wingnuts that are against it as well. They are too hard headed when it comes to protecting America for my tastes, but at least they understand that the line needs to be drawn somewhere when it comes to invasion of our freedoms with intent to protect our freedoms.

At what point is the line drawn for you? How much of your freedom must be taken away for the sake of what the government claims is national security before you say enough is enough?
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Well I for one am glad to see my hard work installing all this stuff will not be in vain and wasted. <shrugs>

Better watch what you say....

The government is secretly run by the oil apologists, and have most likely already tapped your cell phones, internet, and are going through your mail already. You should watch what you say or you'll end up here.....
 
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Well I for one am glad to see my hard work installing all this stuff will not be in vain and wasted. <shrugs>

Better watch what you say....

The government is secretly run by the oil apologists, and have most likely already tapped your cell phones, internet, and are going through your mail already. You should watch what you say or you'll end up here.....

Hell I created the files
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

So you're saying that it is unconstitutional for the President to eavesdrop on international communications, but Congress can grant him that power under the Protect America Act of 2007 and it's suddenly constitutional according to the FISA court?

Wow, I had no idea the Congress could override the Constitution so easily. Now I'm really scared.

I'll wait for the ruling myself, but this snippet from the NY Times Article would seem to back the Bush Administration's view and specifically reject yours:

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies? challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.
 
Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

So you're saying that it is unconstitutional for the President to eavesdrop on international communications, but Congress can grant him that power under the Protect America Act of 2007 and it's suddenly constitutional according to the FISA court?

Wow, I had no idea the Congress could override the Constitution so easily. Now I'm really scared.

I'll wait for the ruling myself, but this snippet from the NY Times Article would seem to back the Bush Administration's view and specifically reject yours:

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies? challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

You would be completely incorrect. The Constitution prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. A lot of what is considered 'reasonable' or not is based upon legislation and guidance passed by Congress. (the evidentiary requirement for probable cause, etc.) This is civics 101.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Woofmeister
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

So you're saying that it is unconstitutional for the President to eavesdrop on international communications, but Congress can grant him that power under the Protect America Act of 2007 and it's suddenly constitutional according to the FISA court?

Wow, I had no idea the Congress could override the Constitution so easily. Now I'm really scared.

I'll wait for the ruling myself, but this snippet from the NY Times Article would seem to back the Bush Administration's view and specifically reject yours:

The FISA court rejected the telecommunication companies? challenge. It found that the Protect America Act did not violate the Constitution because the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, contained an exception for the collection of foreign intelligence information.

You would be completely incorrect. The Constitution prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. A lot of what is considered 'reasonable' or not is based upon legislation and guidance passed by Congress. (the evidentiary requirement for probable cause, etc.) This is civics 101.

WRONG! Only the federal courts may interpret what is "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment. That's civics 101.
 
Originally posted by: Woofmeister

WRONG! Only the federal courts may interpret what is "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment. That's civics 101.

For which the courts use frequently use guidance set by Congress. This is basic stuff man.
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Leave it to winnar to completely miss the point. (real shocking I know)

The question before this court, and the question that it answered was NOT if Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was legal or not, it was if the Protect America Act was constitutional or not. I'm not aware of anyone who has seriously argued that the PAA was unconstitutional.

After the ruling of this court, Bush's actions remain every bit as illegal as they ever were. That trampling of both federal law and the Constitution were of course what everyone was so mad about to begin with, but lets not let those pesky facts get in the way.

You're just a whining leftie that wants to destroy America. Why do you hate America so much eskimospy?

lol


YEA!!! So Why are you a terrorist, who are your terrorist friends, and where is your terrorist base? You liberal terrorist. :|
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Woofmeister

WRONG! Only the federal courts may interpret what is "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment. That's civics 101.

For which the courts use frequently use guidance set by Congress. This is basic stuff man.

Wrong again. The federal courts look to guidance by Congress on legislation passed by Congress, not on interpretation of the Constitution.
 
Originally posted by: winnar111
About time. Now the fringe ACLU lefties can go STFU and patriots at the NSA can continue protecting America.

God help them; since their new President is against the mission.

Yeah, damn that fourth amendment? :roll:
 
The opinion can be downloaded here.

The holding unambiguously supports the proposition that no warrant is required to conduct surveillance of foreigners or agents of foreign powers located outside the United States:

For these reasons, we hold that a foreign intelligence exception to the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement exists when surveillance is conducted to obtain foreign intelligence for national security purposes and is directed against foreign powers or agents of foreign powers reasonably believed to be located outside the United States.

That's the entire Bush wiretapping program in a nutshell.
 
Originally posted by: Woofmeister
The opinion can be downloaded here.

The holding unambiguously supports the proposition that no warrant is required to conduct surveillance of foreigners or agents of foreign powers located outside the United States:

For these reasons, we hold that a foreign intelligence exception to the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement exists when surveillance is conducted to obtain foreign intelligence for national security purposes and is directed against foreign powers or agents of foreign powers reasonably believed to be located outside the United States.

That's the entire Bush wiretapping program in a nutshell.

My issue is not with what they are allowed to wiretap, my question is, who's keeping an eye to see that they are monitoring only what they are supposed to be monitoring if they are not getting any warrants? What is the oversight mechanism to make sure they are doing what they are supposed to do? The court says they can monitor foreign communications, but with no warrants or oversight, how does anyone know what they are monitoring at all?
 
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