What in the Hell? How else are we supposed to test thermal protection devices? What IS likely to accur that will enable thermal management?
By using a systematic approach of failure of thermal management devices, which is why I think the test that was done was the wrong one since it was the worse case senario. The test of a hot system running at full load and then having the HS removed was not a good test, especially if the failure of one of those chips may not of been heat related.
If Tom had performed more tests as I suggested earlier (fan failure on Cold/Hot system, and then HS failure on C/H systems) we would of gotten a lot better understanding on the termal protection capabilities of each chip. Technically, the test should have been done on more than one CPU per type to get statistical results.
By using a systematic approach of failure of thermal management devices, which is why I think the test that was done was the wrong one since it was the worse case senario. The test of a hot system running at full load and then having the HS removed was not a good test, especially if the failure of one of those chips may not of been heat related.
If Tom had performed more tests as I suggested earlier (fan failure on Cold/Hot system, and then HS failure on C/H systems) we would of gotten a lot better understanding on the termal protection capabilities of each chip. Technically, the test should have been done on more than one CPU per type to get statistical results.
What I think is freaking hillarious is all the people who are literally scared of using an Athelon now. "Oh my next system is deffinitely going to be P4!!!". Pfffft, give me a break. I'm going to go make a review that is just video clips of me slamming different monitor brands with sledgehammers, whichever monitor survives 5 blows gets my TOP CHOICE! And I'm sure you will all agree, because a monitor that can survive 5 sledge hammer blows is that much more safer... your $800 investment is worth it right? Get real. Anyone who manages to knock their HSF off WHILE IN USE has more problems than they think. If their heatsink is lying on top of their video card then I don't even want to think about the damage done to all their vibration sensitive hardware.
Don't get me wrong, the p4 clock throtteling is a nice feature, but this test is a joke and a stupid reason to 'jump ship'.
Edit: Perhaps a good followup review to this would be a review of all the accidental ways you could knock an athelon HSF off while in use. Like perhaps Tom gets some really long power cables / etc, turns the Pc on, and then pushes it down a flight of stairs. That test would rock. *cough*
Don't get me wrong, the p4 clock throtteling is a nice feature, but this test is a joke and a stupid reason to 'jump ship'.
Edit: Perhaps a good followup review to this would be a review of all the accidental ways you could knock an athelon HSF off while in use. Like perhaps Tom gets some really long power cables / etc, turns the Pc on, and then pushes it down a flight of stairs. That test would rock. *cough*
<< ...especially if the failure of one of those chips may not of been heat related... >>
WTF? AM I MISSING SOMETHIN' HERE? What in the Hell is going on here? Am I supposed to think that instead of heat failure, there is a moderate chance that a towel-headed terrorist midget jumped in the Doctor's box and blew up the cpu with miniature explosives? HEAT IS THE REASON FOR FAILURE PEOPLE There is no discussion needed. Take that to the bank. Heat destroys cpu's and thermal protection is supposed to protect cpu's from overheating. My Lord am I not watchingl the same video you guys are?
AMD didn't make any mistakes by not using some extrememly advanced form of thermal management. They assume people aren't stupid and can correctly install heatsinks, they are just naive. The thermal management is a nice feature, but why would I pay twice the price for something that performs the same so that I could have security? If your heatsink just fell off, then you could just get another processor. In the end you will be paying the same as for the P4, maybe even less since the motherboards and RAM are cheaper for TBirds. It's a win or break even situation. My vote still goes to AMD, I will just make sure that when I install my heatsink it's secure.
WTF? AM I MISSING SOMETHIN' HERE? What in the Hell is going on here? Am I supposed to think that instead of heat failure...
Please re-run the clip around time stamp 1:43. If you look, the person has problems removing the heat sink. Before the HS is totally removed, the video is completely blank. ALL of the other chips continued to have video until it either locked up or after displaying errors and frying the CPU. I do not know if the CPU was damaged, but I am saying that it seems a little strange that the Palomino's video cut out before the HS was totally removed and we didn't see any slow-down of quake before it went out or error messages. We all know that AMD chips do have fragile cores and that it may have been damaged resulting in frying the chip, and not heat failure.:|
Please re-run the clip around time stamp 1:43. If you look, the person has problems removing the heat sink. Before the HS is totally removed, the video is completely blank. ALL of the other chips continued to have video until it either locked up or after displaying errors and frying the CPU. I do not know if the CPU was damaged, but I am saying that it seems a little strange that the Palomino's video cut out before the HS was totally removed and we didn't see any slow-down of quake before it went out or error messages. We all know that AMD chips do have fragile cores and that it may have been damaged resulting in frying the chip, and not heat failure.:|
If it does turn out that Tom's site used a non-Palomino supporting motherboard, his credibility as a hardware reviewer must be put to serious question... :disgust:
I think it's been in question a long time...
just wait until AMD buys some advertising space on THG and then mysteriously a review will show up describing how resilient the athlon is...
I think it's been in question a long time...
just wait until AMD buys some advertising space on THG and then mysteriously a review will show up describing how resilient the athlon is...
All I am saying is that it looks a little strange with the Palomino. Now we're hearing that Tom may have used the wrong MB. I also know that if Tom used an engineering sample, they don't have the thermal diode so it wouldn't stop itself from frying.
If it takes less than 1 second to go from 40c to 400c, then it doesn't matter if Tom had the right mobo or not...the part would be fryed before the mobo could drop the power after recieving info from the diode...
Wait, did I miss something? Didn't Tom say specifically that it was designed for the Palomino processor? Has somebody asked Siemens about this or what?
EDIT: I think at the moment, that Dr. Pabst is a very reputable hardware reviewer. But u are right, if he made such a crucial mistake it would damage that reputation.
EDIT: I think at the moment, that Dr. Pabst is a very reputable hardware reviewer. But u are right, if he made such a crucial mistake it would damage that reputation.
apoppin
Lifer
The P4 would have throttled properly even if it was a VIA chipset or SiS chipset motherboard. The fact that the AMD needs some specific motherboard and chipset to make the feature work really makes it useless. Most people are buying Thunderbirds with SiS chipsets and VIA chipsets, etc. I think the point of the review is that AMD needs to build a thermal solution that works for them to be taken more seriously in the OEM/Server world. It needs to be built into the CPU itself like Intel has. This doesn't seem like a terribly complicated feature and I'm sure AMD could easily implement it. I think that Tom is hoping that by giving the problem all this attention that AMD will realize the importance of it and do it right next time.
I don't think this test should affect anyone's decision when purchasing a CPU for a PC. The thermal protection feature is just one tiny aspect of a CPU that won't even be a factor for almost everyone. I've never had a HSF fall off and the search above in this thread only returned 3 people out of the thousands that visit this board. This isn't even a factor for me personally. Just interesting reading.
I don't think this test should affect anyone's decision when purchasing a CPU for a PC. The thermal protection feature is just one tiny aspect of a CPU that won't even be a factor for almost everyone. I've never had a HSF fall off and the search above in this thread only returned 3 people out of the thousands that visit this board. This isn't even a factor for me personally. Just interesting reading.
<< Why don't you post your concerns on Tom's forum? >>
<< BTW, what are THEY saying about Tom's tests? >>
I originally posted my concerns on Tom's forum, but didn't get much of a response. Basically, what you read over there is typical of you Intel vs AMD flame war. The Intel people saying that this proves that Intel chips are better and AMD people saying that this test wasn't fair (let's do a hammer test/soak the CPU/etc on the chips and see how they survive) or it is obvious to everyone that AMD chips are hot.
My concern is that if the test was really to demonstrate the thermal protection on the CPU, he should of performed more types of tests that were more likely to occur before he did the worst case senario. If he had done that, there would not be as much controversary with the article. I'm certain that Intel still would of had bragging rights because they survived this test, but it would give people a lot more information on how effective is the thermal protection on AMD chips.
Don't you think it would of been a better article if Dr. Tom had done additional tests, especially since his test was unlikely to occur (a HS coming off a hot system running at full load)?
Dropping in a little late, but I read all the posts so far, and what I find is that it seems no one has actually read the article Mr. Pabst wrote.
He clearly stated that the Siemens mobo he used for the test was designed for the Palomino, and in fact was the only one on the market at that time that was designed for use with the thermal diode.
He also asked Siemens' engineers what the heck went wrong, was their board defective or what, and clearly wrote that Siemens' response was that the thermal diode (or the response to it) could only accomodate a temperature change of up to 1 degree per second.
Obviously, with no HSF, a CPU's temperature will rise much faster than that, and that is the reason for the spectacular failure of the Palomino CPU in his tests. But that also raises the possibility that the thermal protection may be adequate in the case of a failed fan - I have no idea of how quickly the CPU will heat up with a properly attached heatsink with a failed fan, but I guess we won't know unless Tom or someone else runs a test under those conditions.
He clearly stated that the Siemens mobo he used for the test was designed for the Palomino, and in fact was the only one on the market at that time that was designed for use with the thermal diode.
He also asked Siemens' engineers what the heck went wrong, was their board defective or what, and clearly wrote that Siemens' response was that the thermal diode (or the response to it) could only accomodate a temperature change of up to 1 degree per second.
Obviously, with no HSF, a CPU's temperature will rise much faster than that, and that is the reason for the spectacular failure of the Palomino CPU in his tests. But that also raises the possibility that the thermal protection may be adequate in the case of a failed fan - I have no idea of how quickly the CPU will heat up with a properly attached heatsink with a failed fan, but I guess we won't know unless Tom or someone else runs a test under those conditions.
On aceshardware.com someone reported that Tom wasn't even using his thermal measurement instrument correctly... basically the shiny cover on the p4 is so reflective that he was 90% measuring the temperature of his ceiling. This wasn't an issue for the athlon as it has a non-reflective surface.
So it appears that tom can't handle his instruments at all, and designed a ridiculous test which would never mimic real world conditions (how can you transport your computer WHILE it's running?) ... time to stick to AT
So it appears that tom can't handle his instruments at all, and designed a ridiculous test which would never mimic real world conditions (how can you transport your computer WHILE it's running?) ... time to stick to AT
He clearly stated that the Siemens mobo he used for the test was designed for the Palomino, and in fact was the only one on the market at that time that was designed for use with the thermal diode.
He also asked Siemens' engineers what the heck went wrong, was their board defective or what, and clearly wrote that Siemens' response was that the thermal diode (or the response to it) could only accomodate a temperature change of up to 1 degree per second. -- Workin'
Call me crazy, but I still think he used the wrong board. What does that mean to us? Thermal protection for AMD CPU's has yet to be implemented correctly.
And how would having a HS on the die have helped? Would it have allowed the temperature rise that the Siemen's board could have accomodated? We'll never know. It seems to me if you're going to test the thermal protection of a CPU for the rare times when a HSF fails, you would test it by pulling the power tail of the HSF...
He also asked Siemens' engineers what the heck went wrong, was their board defective or what, and clearly wrote that Siemens' response was that the thermal diode (or the response to it) could only accomodate a temperature change of up to 1 degree per second. -- Workin'
Call me crazy, but I still think he used the wrong board. What does that mean to us? Thermal protection for AMD CPU's has yet to be implemented correctly.
And how would having a HS on the die have helped? Would it have allowed the temperature rise that the Siemen's board could have accomodated? We'll never know. It seems to me if you're going to test the thermal protection of a CPU for the rare times when a HSF fails, you would test it by pulling the power tail of the HSF...
just wait until AMD buys some advertising space on THG and then mysteriously a review will show up describing how resilient the athlon is...
Exactly what I thought. Why would Tom say one week "nVidia declares war on Intel" and the next week do this stupid test running down AMD.
And answer this:
Why hasn't Tom said anything about contacting AMD in finding out AMD's response to this issue?
Surely this would be the first place to look for answers before contacting the mobo vendor...
I reckon Tom's got some extra $$$ is his backpocket...
Exactly what I thought. Why would Tom say one week "nVidia declares war on Intel" and the next week do this stupid test running down AMD.
And answer this:
Why hasn't Tom said anything about contacting AMD in finding out AMD's response to this issue?
Surely this would be the first place to look for answers before contacting the mobo vendor...
I reckon Tom's got some extra $$$ is his backpocket...
Whoa, this blows my mind.
a)
<< ... basically the shiny cover on the p4 is so reflective that he was 90% measuring the temperature of his ceiling. This wasn't an issue for the athlon as it has a non-reflective surface >>
Who cares, even if 29 degrees is 90% of the p4's actual temp, the real temperature would be all of ~32 degrees :Q .
b)He clearly stated that he used the right board and checked with Siemens to make sure their thermal management worked, they said it was effective for less than 1 degree/sec. Unless someone wants to dispute that the fact that the temperature was rising at more than 1 deg/sec, this means Siemens acknowledges that the Palo would fry.
c)The Palo's diode seems to have been designed for mobile applications so is it really a huge deal that it fails in these conditions? The only thing this tells me is that people expected more than what AMD said they'd delivered and sure enough they didn't get it.
-Ice
*edited for spelling
a)
<< ... basically the shiny cover on the p4 is so reflective that he was 90% measuring the temperature of his ceiling. This wasn't an issue for the athlon as it has a non-reflective surface >>
Who cares, even if 29 degrees is 90% of the p4's actual temp, the real temperature would be all of ~32 degrees :Q .
b)He clearly stated that he used the right board and checked with Siemens to make sure their thermal management worked, they said it was effective for less than 1 degree/sec. Unless someone wants to dispute that the fact that the temperature was rising at more than 1 deg/sec, this means Siemens acknowledges that the Palo would fry.
c)The Palo's diode seems to have been designed for mobile applications so is it really a huge deal that it fails in these conditions? The only thing this tells me is that people expected more than what AMD said they'd delivered and sure enough they didn't get it.
-Ice
*edited for spelling
icecool83,
Yes, but does it mean that it would work if the HS is left on the die (which is a better test for HSF failure)? I seriously doubt the temp would rise 300+ degrees with a HS on it.
Yes, but does it mean that it would work if the HS is left on the die (which is a better test for HSF failure)? I seriously doubt the temp would rise 300+ degrees with a HS on it.
ST4R,
I don't know, maybe you should email Dr Pabst and ask him for an update
The Palo would certainly stand more of a chance but would it be enough? I don't know but 1 degree/sec seems pretty useless to me for preventing a meltdown even with a heatsink. Then again I'm not an engineer or a cooling expert.
-Ice
I don't know, maybe you should email Dr Pabst and ask him for an update
The Palo would certainly stand more of a chance but would it be enough? I don't know but 1 degree/sec seems pretty useless to me for preventing a meltdown even with a heatsink. Then again I'm not an engineer or a cooling expert.
-Ice
I have a device like the one in the video. The laser does not take the temperature, it is used to let the person know where the probe is taking temperature. That is an infared thermometer. More expensive models have about 6 lasers and spread out as the sensor beam gets bigger as you go father away to let you know how big of an area the sensor is reading.
Added: Most failures come from not putting on the heatsink right, I've put one on and put the wrong clip on first and still worked, I have scratches on my heatsink from the core from putting it on and I have not damaged my Duron. With a BIOS update, my old MSI K7T Pro 2a will shut down if it reaches a certain temperature. Don't know if it works, but nice to have, as it reads the temp from the cpu socket. Newer boards from MSI now touch the bottom of the cpu.
Any reason why Van's article is inaccurate? It seems the P4 needed clock throttling due to a particular part of the core that gets very hot very quick. But whatever. Most don't throttle anyhow during normal conditions right?
Bottom line is it is good to have some kind of protection when a fan fails. If you have heatsinks that violate AMD specs like those copper heatsinks, then it is best to take them off when traveling (heh, according to Tom himself in heatsink reviews: 300g is max!)
Maybe AMD will make it better in the Athlon XP with the new OLGA packaging. Who knows?
Added: Most failures come from not putting on the heatsink right, I've put one on and put the wrong clip on first and still worked, I have scratches on my heatsink from the core from putting it on and I have not damaged my Duron. With a BIOS update, my old MSI K7T Pro 2a will shut down if it reaches a certain temperature. Don't know if it works, but nice to have, as it reads the temp from the cpu socket. Newer boards from MSI now touch the bottom of the cpu.
Any reason why Van's article is inaccurate? It seems the P4 needed clock throttling due to a particular part of the core that gets very hot very quick. But whatever. Most don't throttle anyhow during normal conditions right?
Bottom line is it is good to have some kind of protection when a fan fails. If you have heatsinks that violate AMD specs like those copper heatsinks, then it is best to take them off when traveling (heh, according to Tom himself in heatsink reviews: 300g is max!)
Maybe AMD will make it better in the Athlon XP with the new OLGA packaging. Who knows?
I've used those before too, and I concur with sprockkets.
And also, 1 degree per second would help the cpu much. I'd still like to see a similar test done, but just simulating a fan going inop. Although, I really don't think the results would be much different.
And also, 1 degree per second would help the cpu much. I'd still like to see a similar test done, but just simulating a fan going inop. Although, I really don't think the results would be much different.
One of my friends forgot to plug in the fan for his Athlon and didnt realize it for 30 minutes and it survived just fine. The fact that the P4 can survive without the heatsink is great and all but I aint payin an extra $200 for that feature.
As for the Tom's Hardware test:
Worst case scenario is that he did everything right and the results are true, the Athlon blows up if the heatsink is taken off while running. What does that do to change my future computer purchases? Nothing. Why?
1) Because the odds of that happening are extremely small.
2) If by some small chance it does happen to me then I use the $200 I save in buying an Athlon 1.4Ghz vs a P4 2Ghz to buy ANOTHER Athlon 1.4Ghz, a new ECS K7S5a Mobo, a heatsink fan, and still have enough left to pay for dinner.
As for the Tom's Hardware test:
Worst case scenario is that he did everything right and the results are true, the Athlon blows up if the heatsink is taken off while running. What does that do to change my future computer purchases? Nothing. Why?
1) Because the odds of that happening are extremely small.
2) If by some small chance it does happen to me then I use the $200 I save in buying an Athlon 1.4Ghz vs a P4 2Ghz to buy ANOTHER Athlon 1.4Ghz, a new ECS K7S5a Mobo, a heatsink fan, and still have enough left to pay for dinner.
I reckon Tom's got some extra $$$ is his backpocket...
You guys really can't infer anything from what is known so far. Just because Tom has different ads on his site every week or every month (whether for Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc.) it doesn't make him biased. It's also ludicrous to think that Tom is biased towards one company if, for example, there's a positive article on Nvidia products and Tom has an Nvidia advertisement on his web site. You're just speculating at best.
I remember Anandtech had a bunch of "2GHz P4" ads up after the Developer in August. Did I think Anandtech was being paid off to write a positive article on the 2 GHz P4 review because of these ads. Jesus NO. That's either plain stupidity or paranoia.
I say that if there's no better evidence of bias' than the usual argument of "Why is there such and such an ad on their web site", then I won't believe a word of it.
You guys really can't infer anything from what is known so far. Just because Tom has different ads on his site every week or every month (whether for Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc.) it doesn't make him biased. It's also ludicrous to think that Tom is biased towards one company if, for example, there's a positive article on Nvidia products and Tom has an Nvidia advertisement on his web site. You're just speculating at best.
I remember Anandtech had a bunch of "2GHz P4" ads up after the Developer in August. Did I think Anandtech was being paid off to write a positive article on the 2 GHz P4 review because of these ads. Jesus NO. That's either plain stupidity or paranoia.
I say that if there's no better evidence of bias' than the usual argument of "Why is there such and such an ad on their web site", then I won't believe a word of it.
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