Intel vs. AMD and memory controller performance

[Nemesis 1]

Stream benchmark for MC: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3995220&postcount=54

Stream benchmark for Nehalem: http://www.advancedclustering.com/company-blog/stream-benchmarking.html

Architectural diagram of Xeon 7500: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3648/xeon-7500-dell-r810/3

According to that diagram, the CPU indeed has four memory channels, just like MC. (Well, on 7500, they are serial, not parallel).

But each of those channels goes to a memory buffer chip (serdes), and each of those chips is attached to TWO memory channels.

So while MC has four 64-bit memory channels @ 1333, Xeon 7500 has effectively eight 64-bit memory channels @ 1066. So at least in the theoretical, Xeon 7500 has more memory bandwidth. Whether or not that is borne out in the real world with Stream hasn't been proven yet.

Thanks for your links . Man I have to start reading again the 7500 is the 8 core lol. with 4 channels in serial interesting. I read the andy stuff but servers never been my cup of tea. really don't care / but if your going to debate its a good Idea to read about that which your going to debate. Shame on me.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Can someone post a 7500 STREAM benchmark then? I don't have access to any.

As for doing a 1P AMD to 2P intel in order to have and "apples to apples" comparison, that idea is fatally flawed.

Why not compare threads? 2 x 12C AMD to 2 x 12T Intel?
Why not compare price? The throughput of a $5K AMD system to the throughput of a $5K intel system?

There are plenty of ways to do comparisons. Most customers buy at the socket level, so socket to socket seems to be the fairest in my mind. The other way folks buy is by budget, so picking a price point seems to be a fair way to do it.

If you want to do my 1P to an Intel 2P, you can do that, but you might want to add price into that comparison just to make it fair.

Thats a fair question . Thread for thread . But why not core for core and each core does what its capabilities are . I understand your point of view. But core for core is proper . If your on losing end of stick ican see your point of view. But lets not forget intel also has some 48 core dies in the wilded . its just under nda. As for pricing lets not go there we all know what AMD did when they had the lead . Conroe lowered the pricies and it was way faster. I wonder does AMD really want intel to match up core for core and remove hyper threading. If I was AMD I wouldn't .

 

[Sylvanas]

@nemesis:

Yes but doesn't intel need more letters in its name? And given the fact that if you rearange the letters you could spell nile, even if you do have to drop the t, it is possible that the oil slick blowout could be relieved with a horizontal relief well. In fact it it would be relatively straightforward. And don't forget that the density of fresh water is 971 kg/m^3! Given that, if it takes a chicken and a half a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, don't you think its possible for an ant with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle? Looks like it rained last night.

Nominated for post of the month.

 

[Ben90]

Thats a fair question . Thread for thread . But why not core for core and each core does what its capabilities are . I understand your point of view. But core for core is proper . If your on losing end of stick ican see your point of view. But lets not forget intel also has some 48 core dies in the wilded . its just under nda. As for pricing lets not go there we all know what AMD did when they had the lead . Conroe lowered the pricies and it was way faster. I wonder does AMD really want intel to match up core for core and remove hyper threading. If I was AMD I wouldn't .

Nemesis, no enterprise buys systems based on how many cores it has alone. Performance Needed / TCO is the metric so stop ruining this thread.

 

[JFAMD]

Thats a fair question . Thread for thread . But why not core for core and each core does what its capabilities are . I understand your point of view. But core for core is proper . If your on losing end of stick ican see your point of view. But lets not forget intel also has some 48 core dies in the wilded . its just under nda. As for pricing lets not go there we all know what AMD did when they had the lead . Conroe lowered the pricies and it was way faster. I wonder does AMD really want intel to match up core for core and remove hyper threading. If I was AMD I wouldn't .

All of it is pretty immaterial. Customers have a budget. They are looking to get the most for their budget. They don't say "I need to buy 8 cores", they say "I have $5K for the server, what can I get?"

If they had an option to buy a 2P Intel server with 12 total cores for $5K, they wouldn't compare to a 1P AMD with 12 cores. They would compare to the AMD. And they'd look for a 2P in that same price range. OR they would look for an AMD in the same performance range and compare price.

Core for core and thread for thread are both bad ways to compare processors. One favors me, one favors my competitor. The fairest way to compare is socket to socket or price to price. Then, whether you have big cores + HT or a higher number of smaller cores becomes irrelevant. Now, it is about total throughput for the platform. Which, is how customers actually compare.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Nemesis, no enterprise buys systems based on how many cores it has alone. Performance Needed / TCO is the metric so stop ruining this thread.

Yes Ben I understand that . But having more cores isn't bragging rights. Its the amount of work per core . Intel has been stuck at 2s along time and have come along ways in 4 short years. Intel adderessed the 2s server market first. They already had the mobile sector raped up thanks to Dothan . One of the israel teams main reasons for choosing the Procore was the fact it was already designed to scale up to a 2s system . Than of course Intel wanted the desktop performance back. To me the new intels that can do 8s is a huge move by intel .They went from 2s to 8s not bad AMD is still at 4s . I am assuming AMD BD will also be 8s. But intel finally leads in the socket race. What intel has accomplished with the the Pro core is nothing short of amazing.

For the record I understand that performance is really high right now Both AMD /Intel are not disappointing . What bends me around is this cost BS . My memory isn't that short. I recall when AMD lead in performance so just take the cost thing and put were sun doesn't shine . AMD didn't lower pricies because their nice people they were FORCED to lower or exit the cpu market . Hell Intel didn't slash pricies when AMD was leading . Lets not forget Intel understands the Fab business they New AMD could only produce X amount of CPUs and AMD did infact run at full capacity with 1 fab , By the time the second fab came online it was to late Intel had conroe ready and waiting.

The other thing that bends me is this talk of not much per thread improvements down the line . Which is pure BS. Sandy is fast . Thats all I can say without Bob casterating me. Also if you read online reports . Many people saying AMD supports AVX on BD which is likely true . The LIE is this . AMD does not and Will not support VEX prefix. Thats intel for the time being AMD has XOB or something like that. Its not the same . Intel does not have to share the Vex compiler with AMD noway nohow. Intels front end is abit differant on sandy . 3 operands with support for five . So whats it going to be ???

 

[JFAMD]

The 8S x86 business is 1,600-1,800 servers worldwide per quarter, and getting smaller. Compare that to the ~1.8M total x86 servers and you see that the intel push into the 8S x86 space is not a place that is going to see big growth in the near term. Especially with 4S systems stepping up their memory footprint.

 

[Nemesis 1]

All of it is pretty immaterial. Customers have a budget. They are looking to get the most for their budget. They don't say "I need to buy 8 cores", they say "I have $5K for the server, what can I get?"

If they had an option to buy a 2P Intel server with 12 total cores for $5K, they wouldn't compare to a 1P AMD with 12 cores. They would compare to the AMD. And they'd look for a 2P in that same price range. OR they would look for an AMD in the same performance range and compare price.

Core for core and thread for thread are both bad ways to compare processors. One favors me, one favors my competitor. The fairest way to compare is socket to socket or price to price. Then, whether you have big cores + HT or a higher number of smaller cores becomes irrelevant. Now, it is about total throughput for the platform. Which, is how customers actually compare.

I not going to argue this point as I agree . My problem is this . Intel was fined and paid AMD in a settlement . This costed Intel 1qt profits in all. 3.75 billion . For unfair business praticies . What did intel do exactly . AMD fab was running at capicity so were was the damage . AMD is now selling at pricies that are not making them money . So what was it intel did wrong because as I recall Intel was still making all this money durring AMDs hayday. It comes down to what Sanders said Real men have fabs . Sanders problem was this . AMD only had 1 fab . The other fab was a day late and a dollar short.
I actually got excited about the New York fab . Ya Made in America works for me . But as it turns out . New york taxpayers are paying for a GF Fab . Like these guys needed a hand out . New york state is broke. The next factory will be built in the middle east . where does that leave german decaying fabs. In 5 years. I take that is what the 1.5 billion EU fine was. Now if I was GF my next fab would not be built in the middle east .China is were I would build if your aim is against the west . GF couldn't back out of the NewYork deal.

 

[Nemesis 1]

The 8S x86 business is 1,600-1,800 servers worldwide per quarter, and getting smaller. Compare that to the ~1.8M total x86 servers and you see that the intel push into the 8S x86 space is not a place that is going to see big growth in the near term. Especially with 4S systems stepping up their memory footprint.

Yes Jr(JF) I understand that , Lets just wait till next qt results. If AMD picks up market share will all know it. As it is AMD lost market share to intel last qt. they are now under 10% in server . The memory controller thing isn't really an issue . You know it as do I . The real issue is SB vs BD. If intel wins that round its bad news for AMD . You work at AMD .

So lets see who reads the cards better, Heres what I see . 2 differant SB cpus . The one that shows up in first qt. with IGP AVX and 3 operands and the server cpus that show up in 2nd and 3rd quarters . I am willing to bet we see without a doubt 4 operands possiably five . Heres how I see it . Its in the road maps for unknown date.

Intel will have AVX with 3 operands 1st qt with Igp. The second and third qt , I see it like this . Intel comes with 5 operands Avx + FMA3 not FMA4. Intel knows FMA they had Itanics along time now. So intel will go like this 5 operands 2for AVX one shared FMA3 with 2 operands 1 shared . Thats how I see it. Amd was sucked in byintel . AMD thought intel was going FMA on sandy because those are the cards intel showed. But when AMD announced that they were going FMA on BD. Than Intel announces they are going AVX and FMA than it was AVX only . I doubt intel lied. Well see AVX only in the 1st qt . After that I think well see whats in intels whitepapers with dates unknown .

 

[Markfw]

This thread was supposed to be about memory performance, not stock prices, fabs, lawsuits, profitibility and everything else I have seen as of late.

Nemesis 1, it you don't knock it off, I will just lock this thread, and sorry to everyone else for him ruining it.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Mark We were given much info in this topic. Links and such . Did you read the the AT article.On the servers . I didn't ruin this thread and I like JR(JF) i like his post here and XS . and the zone excellant poster. But he is AMD . Read the Andy server thing all the way threw . This topic was going the wrong direction . It wasn't balanced. Read the AT server thread linked in thes topic . Amds controller is 4 channel 2+2 equals 4 channel . Intels is 1+1+1+1 4 channel in serial . Whats more to be said Saying AMDs memory controller is superior doesn't cut it. Intels is superior Its just that cpu is for the Highend market , Its meant to play with the risk market . For now intels pleased with its 3 channel memory, In the first qt of 2011 well see intels sandy with 2 channel memory controller later 4 channel in serial . That about somes it up . All kinds of charts and graphs don't tell the true story , For me this topic was over be for it started but I was having a problem with recalling what I read in ATs server article as a speed read it so I did get confused a bit , Thanks to virtual larrys link I went back did another speed read . and got things straight in my mind . Yes I did goof up just got confused about what cpus we were discussing . So this topic played out . But Jr(JF) is a good source so I decided to go fishing but Jf wasn't biting . He is not only a good poster but a smart poster . It amuses me when he and who mix it up . JR (JF) does really well considering who has the high ground not many can do that. If I offended him for that I am sorry because we need him here at this forum .

 

[Dravic]

@nemesis:

Yes but doesn't intel need more letters in its name? And given the fact that if you rearange the letters you could spell nile, even if you do have to drop the t, it is possible that the oil slick blowout could be relieved with a horizontal relief well. In fact it it would be relatively straightforward. And don't forget that the density of fresh water is 971 kg/m^3! Given that, if it takes a chicken and a half a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, don't you think its possible for an ant with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle? Looks like it rained last night.

I lol'd at work, you winz the interwebs...

 

[Idontcare]

JR (JF) does really well considering who has the high ground not many can do that. If I offended him for that I am sorry because we need him here at this forum .

If you are concerned with the possibility that your posts are offending him then you should take issue with yourself over the fact you seem to be incapable of properly addressing him by his forum handle.

Hint: It is JFAMD

 

[Nemesis 1]

If you are concerned with the possibility that your posts are offending him then you should take issue with yourself over the fact you seem to be incapable of properly addressing him by his forum handle.

Hint: It is JFAMD

OH . Idon't believe I offended JR(JF) . Bob knows him personnally in like the flesh. Bob says he good man . It was Bob who told me to Use JR. It some sort inside joke I don't get either.

 

[richierich1212]

Who the hell is Bob?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Bob is a very good friend I have who was a journymen millwright under me . Latter we decided to form our own business . I am an expert in Vision aid equipment trained by Key technologies . If a system goes down in our area we normally take care of it . My health started failing and Bod assumed more responsibility . Recently My daughter took over the PC business. Bob travels all over the world now repairing and installing Vision aid equipment For Key tech and others. He has done well I am proud of him he seldom requires my aid now which is good as I am about useless. We have made many friends in the computer industry.

 

[tweakboy]

Either one, they make them good now a days...:hmm:

 

[Bill Brasky]

@nemesis:

Yes but doesn't intel need more letters in its name? And given the fact that if you rearange the letters you could spell nile, even if you do have to drop the t, it is possible that the oil slick blowout could be relieved with a horizontal relief well. In fact it it would be relatively straightforward. And don't forget that the density of fresh water is 971 kg/m^3! Given that, if it takes a chicken and a half a day and a half to lay an egg and a half, don't you think its possible for an ant with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle? Looks like it rained last night.

9001 internet points for you, good sir. Literally loled.