Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Hulk]

There just isn't a good reason to swim against the x86 tide and run Windows on ARM. Any performance or power advantage you might get is temporary, and just isn't worth the headaches (both real and potential like "what if Microsoft loses interest in ARM due to low sales, or the next version of your must use app drops ARM support for that reason?")

This is absolutely 100% how I feel. I could not have said it any better.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

seems like Intel is betting on gaming laptop market with PTL?

PTL-H with the big GPU competes with the low-end discrete GPUs on gaming laptops and it's most probably the king of sub-20W performance on handhelds.
The small GPU model has more PCIe lanes, so it's either for office use with no dGPU or gaming with a dGPU. That one competes with Gorgon Point and Krackan.

So, is PTL a well position product? From my understanding, it doesn't compete with a dedicated graphics card solution in gaming.

It does compete with the RTX 4050 and at a fraction of the TDP.

It is a pretty big piece of silicon (CPU tile on 18A at ~114mm^2 compared to Zen 5 at 70.6mm^2) with a bunch of other tiles and packaging.

The compute tile in PTL also has an image processor, a 50 TOPs NPU, display outputs, memory controller and a fat bus that reaches the iGPU chiplet.
You can't compare it to the Zen 5 CCDs that only have the CPU cores and IF.

Seems to be a pretty pricy solution (from a cost perspective).

Foveros was supposed to be relatively cheap, actually.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Foveros was supposed to be relatively cheap, actually.

a Si slab is a Si slab.

 

[Khato]

I doubt anyone wants to play along and guess how much the Foveros base tile adds to Intel's mainstream client cost?

 

[Hulk]

It does compete with the RTX 4050 and at a fraction of the TDP.

Is this your guess or have you seen power numbers while gaming on both? Not being snarky, I agree with you, just wondering if you've found some testing?

 

[DavidC1]

all those have 85% less pixels to push than the M4 air. The Dell is pretty good tho since it’s 120hz.

It's Windows fault, and general lack of optimization by PC ecosystem. Intel Macbooks did 20% better than Windows laptops.

 

[branch_suggestion]

It's pretty disgraceful and honestly they deserve every sale lost from the general public's perception that their feature and software support is now terrible.

MDS1 is not made with iGPU perf in mind, it is the KRK replacement which is merely adequate (and 1-hi is the Strix Point replacement for green stickers).
Premium/Halo both use RDNA5, rejoice.

So no 192bit LPDDR6 for Medusa Premium / Halo?

Pretty sure the sockets and PHYs support it, but LP6 is probably not ready for launch, mid gen kicker possibly.
Or the SoCs stick with L5X due to power constraints not requiring the extra membw and only the dGPU versions use LP6.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Is this your guess or have you seen power numbers while gaming on both? Not being snarky, I agree with you, just wondering if you've found some testing?

DF wrote down the total package as 58 to 64W while running their tests. The RTX 4050 alone is often set at >60W TGP on laptops.

Or the SoCs stick with L5X due to power constraints not requiring the extra membw and only the dGPU versions use LP6.

One would assume the APU versions are the ones who need LP6 the most, as they share bandwidth with the CPU cores.

 

[regen1]

View attachment 136716

I mean you can see here. Add a high resolution panel ( none of those are OLED) or pick a non Ultra 5 SKU and the battery LNL reduces a lot.

The Acer is standard 60hz FHD.

Compared to Dell 14 Plus (2560*1600, 90Hz, IPS) in that review ThinkPad X9-15 has somewhat larger display(2880*1800, 120Hz, OLED) and a bigger battery. It did decent enough in those few tests.
M5 has lot better efficiency(combining battery life and performance level).
It's hard to compare vs different OS or even similar specced Laptops.
There were some comparisons for X Elite 1 vs Lunar Lake on the MS Surface versions(same specs apart from processors), LNL competed well in those.

 

[branch_suggestion]

One would assume the APU versions are the ones who need LP6 the most, as they share bandwidth with the CPU cores.

Very workload dependent. Usually it is one or the other due to power limits.
LP6 capacity bump may be more important.

 

[adroc_thurston]

One would assume the APU versions are the ones who need LP6 the most, as they share bandwidth with the CPU cores.

AT3 APU is 384b LP6.
AT4 one has to share the FP10 socket so 128b L5x it is (PHY's a combo, so dGP SKUs get LP6 too).

 

[poke01]

View attachment 136722
Compared to Dell 14 Plus (2560*1600, 90Hz, IPS) in that review ThinkPad X9-15 has somewhat larger display(2880*1800, 120Hz, OLED) and a bigger battery. It did decent enough in those few tests.
M5 has lot better efficiency(combining battery life and performance level).
It's hard to compare vs different OS or even similar specced Laptops.
There were some comparisons for X Elite 1 vs Lunar Lake on the MS Surface versions(same specs apart from processors), LNL competed well in those.

Yeah the X9-15 is good. The larger battery is nice to see.

It looks like only Lenovo and Dell optimise some of their laptops really well.

 

[adroc_thurston]

It looks like only Lenovo and Dell optimise some of their laptops really well.

bretty sure Zenbooks have good BL numbers too across all vendors.

 

[511]

I doubt anyone wants to play along and guess how much the Foveros base tile adds to Intel's mainstream client cost?

It's Intel 16(22nm FFL) for all reason and a very cheap node and considering it's passive i guess it would be slightly more than Silicon Substrate cost.

 

[Joe NYC]

I highly doubt you can make it through the 2:53:23 video.

I watched the Gamers Nexus video, full length. I wonder if you did.

95% of the video is on tariff escalation with China that lasted a few weeks.
5% of the video at the end is about the exemptions to nearly everything that the first 95% of video talked about
0% of the video (after the video was published), the biggest "Sky is falling" item was also cancelled (100% Tariffs US and China declared on each other for some days and subsequently cancelled.

The video was a good click and retard bait and it succeeded.

I doubt that Gamers Nexus made a follow up video stating that 99% of the content of the previous video is no longer operative. That would not be as successful in attracting clicks and retards.

A good comparison of this video is a video about snow storm. Nobody is so dumb as to believe that after watching a snow storm video, there will be snow on the ground for the rest of our lives.

But the retards who watched the Gamers Nexus video still the effects described are still in the effect.

The broader point, of the beneficial impact of the tariff and the style of negotiation tactics - is beyond Steve's ability to contemplate. Or intent to contemplate. It was barely touched.

I will include the link to the video (for reference) which has been entirely superseded by subsequent event and therefore invalid as of today.

There were some 13-14 videos with tariff retardation on MLID, and not one informing the users that everything said in the videos has either turned out to be invalid or is no longer valid.

 

[fastandfurious6]

It's Windows fault, and general lack of optimization by PC ecosystem. Intel Macbooks did 20% better than Windows laptops.

truth be told, macbook is the ultimate non-gaming laptop (even before apple silicon)


I was just gonna write "its only weaknesses is macos, limited games, limited windows linux emulation" but just did some research...

apparently M4 Max = RTX5060 = Strix Halo ...... similar FPS, plus/minus variance per game

TBH that's crazy


basically M5 Max and M6 Base will be proper gaming machines + fast windows VM

M6 Base will definitely be the killer $1000 machine, N2 will be huge leap

 

[fastandfurious6]

basically...

$1000 Apple M6 Base >>> PTL (minimum $1000, probably more)
in every single domain including gaming on windows lol

M6 releases this September = PTL has only ~6 months life if you buy it now

 

[poke01]

including gaming on windows

Gaming is one place where x86 cannot be defeated.

 

[fastandfurious6]

nope I did the maths, M4 Max has very good performance even via double emulation i.e. VM translation + ARM translation. It runs everything 1080p fluid and can even do 4K. Translation layers/support are only going to become better and better

M5 base is very decent too, standard $1000 machine

M6 base will definitely achieve higher fps than PTL on everything


guaranteed

 

[Schmide]

I watched the Gamers Nexus video, full length. I wonder if you did.

95% of the video is on tariff escalation with China that lasted a few weeks.
5% of the video at the end is about the exemptions to nearly everything that the first 95% of video talked about
0% of the video (after the video was published), the biggest "Sky is falling" item was also cancelled (100% Tariffs US and China declared on each other for some days and subsequently cancelled.

The video was a good click and retard bait and it succeeded.

I doubt that Gamers Nexus made a follow up video stating that 99% of the content of the previous video is no longer operative. That would not be as successful in attracting clicks and retards.

A good comparison of this video is a video about snow storm. Nobody is so dumb as to believe that after watching a snow storm video, there will be snow on the ground for the rest of our lives.

But the retards who watched the Gamers Nexus video still the effects described are still in the effect.

The broader point, of the beneficial impact of the tariff and the style of negotiation tactics - is beyond Steve's ability to contemplate. Or intent to contemplate. It was barely touched.

I will include the link to the video (for reference) which has been entirely superseded by subsequent event and therefore invalid as of today.

There were some 13-14 videos with tariff retardation on MLID, and not one informing the users that everything said in the videos has either turned out to be invalid or is no longer valid.

Again you failed. Not only did you not learn anything. You seem to only go after the messenger, not the message.

If you're going to make such dismissive claims, you have to back them up. You're seriously lost in some alternate universe where you can't look things up. If someone provides information to the contrary of your beliefs, all you do call them retarded. The only proper use of the term retard is in a combustion engine. But you probably get off on insulting people with outdated terms.

Where do you get your news? You skipped the last questions I asked you. You still don't seem to understand that the 10% Feb 4 tariff is still in effect.

Even if the 10% was not in effect. Just like measuring power using watts or joules, as you prefer, the area under the graph is non zero. You can't erase that.

Side note: You can't judge the Gamers Nexus video or any other video with history erasing glasses.

I guess my final question. What do you get out of this lie? Are you trying to convince the smarter than average people on this board that they are wrong? That they should get their information from alternative sources? If so what are these freaking sources?

Convince me!

 

[Hulk]

nope I did the maths, M4 Max has very good performance even via double emulation i.e. VM translation + ARM translation. It runs everything 1080p fluid and can even do 4K. Translation layers/support are only going to become better and better

M5 base is very decent too, standard $1000 machine

M6 base will definitely achieve higher fps than PTL on everything


guaranteed

Too bad it has that confounding, dumbed down, OS where you can't even get at a root folder.

 

[Joe NYC]

Side note: You can't judge the Gamers Nexus video or any other video with history erasing glasses.

The last 5 minutes of it, erased its main point raised in first 125 minutes. Exemptions eliminated tariff on the bulk of the semiconductor / computing products.

Subsequent to the video, the ~125% tariff was removed.

Smart business people found work arounds during the period of tensions. They diverted the trade, held it at sea or unloaded to special warehouses, to wait out the storm, and not take the physical delivery making the goods subject to tariff.

I guess my final question. What do you get out of this lie? Are you trying to convince the smarter than average people on this board that they are wrong?

That's the thing. There is drama in intermediate steps, and you are trapped inside that. You can't get past that to see the picture. All you are seeing is trees, and you can't see the forest.

I look at the net effect, of how tariffs influence the industry, and net effect is ~0.

Which is how we got on this subject in the first place - how tariffs will affect overall demand and current shortages that Intel announced.

There was a financial analyst today saying that AMD will be affected by server CPU shortages in 2026, being effectively sold out.

That's how we got on this subject in the first place. But as is, tariffs are completely irrelevant to the story, mostly because their net effect rounds to ~zero.

That they should get their information from alternative sources? If so what are these freaking sources?

The "alternative" source is to follow up updates to every story to their final conclusions. That's where I am at.

You are at one of the intermediate steps, which have subsequently been superseded

Just like measuring power using watts or joules, as you prefer, the area under the graph is non zero. You can't erase that.

It is true that some joules were burned as a friction, in achieving a beneficial effect.

But I am going to bet one joule that you have absolutely zero clue as to what the desired effect was and how all the drama facilitated achieving it.

 

[Schmide]

The last 5 minutes of it, erased its main point raised in first 125 minutes. Exemptions eliminated tariff on the bulk of the semiconductor / computing products.

Subsequent to the video, the ~125% tariff was removed.

Smart business people found work arounds during the period of tensions. They diverted the trade, held it at sea or unloaded to special warehouses, to wait out the storm, and not take the physical delivery making the goods subject to tariff.



That's the thing. There is drama in intermediate steps, and you are trapped inside that. You can't get past that to see the picture. All you are seeing is trees, and you can't see the forest.

I look at the net effect, of how tariffs influence the industry, and net effect is ~0.

Which is how we got on this subject in the first place - how tariffs will affect overall demand and current shortages that Intel announced.

There was a financial analyst today saying that AMD will be affected by server CPU shortages in 2026, being effectively sold out.

That's how we got on this subject in the first place. But as is, tariffs are completely irrelevant to the story, mostly because their net effect rounds to ~zero.



The "alternative" source is to follow up updates to every story to their final conclusions. That's where I am at.

You are at one of the intermediate steps, which have subsequently been superseded



It is true that some joules were burned as a friction, in achieving a beneficial effect.

But I am going to bet one joule that you have absolutely zero clue as to what the desired effect was and how all the drama facilitated achieving it.

Sources? Not walls of text. Prove to me that the 10% Feb 4 China and April 5 (everyone else) tariff is not in effect. If you do that, you win.

Edit: Biased Source

Edit2: Here is an odd one. Seems the high end chips are being tarrifed. Biased Source Jan 14

The Secretary also recommended, as part of this first phase, immediately imposing a 25 percent ad valorem tariff on a very narrow category of semiconductors that are an important element of my Administration’s AI and technology policies, and that such tariff would not apply when the chips are imported to support the buildout of the United States technology supply chain.

The carvout is weirder than normal. So H200 and MI325x 25% yet exempt from most data centers and research, some user space. But exporting the cards to china is where the tariff activates? Future

"Phase One." They hinted that broader tariffs on all semiconductors could be coming later in 2026 if more companies don't move their actual manufacturing (the foundries) to U.S. soil

Not like we can buy anything anyways.

 

[fastandfurious6]

Too bad it has that confounding, dumbed down, OS where you can't even get at a root folder.

yeah macos going down the drain

but apparently it runs windows VM quite well for everything.... minus few deficiencies i.e. no DX12 support, no anticheat online gaming. Maybe these get patched

it will be likely viable to run macbook 100% on windows VM

 

[poke01]

Too bad it has that confounding, dumbed down, OS where you can't even get at a root folder.

? You can access root in macOS easily. open terminal then type cd /

It’s not iOS where everything is locked down.

yeah macos going down the drain

Everything is going down the drain. Especially Windows as Microsoft is adding copilot to file explorer. That’s going too far I think. I have to move Linux on my desktop soon and run Windows in a VM. It’s not going to safe from 2 years from now.

I don’t copilot to read my documents or delete them.

How Microsoft Copilot May Soon Appear Inside Windows 11 File Explorer

References found by users within a preview build of Windows 11 hint to more Copilot integrations within various features of the OS.

hothardware.com