Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[fastandfurious6]

Not on market yet 😉 you're grasping at straws. Very often US-China have similar prices.

Honestly even at $1800 it still blows all PTL laptops up 😂 I'm still not wrong

 

[poke01]

1. I based my post on this source, posted. It says ASUS priced its TUF HALO 392 32gb laptop at around $1,435. It's not available in market yet so we don't know

That’s not US or global pricing. China is irrelevant because tech is often very cheap there due to government subsidies etc

 

[fastandfurious6]

China is irrelevant because [...]

Lol!

It's interesting how you're trying to "prove me wrong" while one of the few available PTL is at $2,349... https://www.bestbuy.com/product/del...6-32gb-memory-1tb-storage-graphite/J3K4L6QK7C


With around $200 less you get HALO 395, multiple times faster than PTL (literally) 😉

And without a doubt any Halo 390+ under $2000 is the perfect ultrabook buy, nothing comes close

 

[Khato]

Correct, nothing that's usually considered an 'ultrabook' comes close to the 100W+ sustained power consumption of Strix Halo.

I'm still waiting for the $1500 Strix Halo laptop that you've repeatedly claimed is the competition for PTL. There's nothing wrong with saying that you mis-read the notebookcheck article and it's $1800. Most people don't care about being wrong regarding such trivial mistakes.

 

[Khato]

FYI, the closest I can find to a $1500 Strix Halo laptop is the zbook ultra g1a with the 380 SKU for $1590. Not sure how well that one would fare against PTL.

I will say the fact that there have only been 2 Strix Halo laptops released and another 2 announced makes it relatively easy to price check them.

 

[MoistOintment]

We can really just put this conversation to rest once for all if you were to just provide some kind of price estimate for how much you think PTL-H 12Xe costs for the SoC rather than pointing out repeatedly that brand new XPS model that just launched within the last 2 weeks is expensive vs the cheapest STX-H laptop you can find.

18A and N3E may cost more than N4, but it doesn't cost that much more to account for the massive die size difference, and the packaging costs aren't that huge to just fill the gap left over - let alone the board pricing impacts that low volume STX-H has

These comparisons are just...pointless. There are way too many variables to draw any type of meaningful conclusion at this point.

We heard this same conversation with LNL's launch last year how it was too expensive of a chip, and now $800 LNL laptops are being posted ITT to show how expensive PTL is. New chips debut at high MSRP - this is just the typical cycle. This year in particular high RAM and SSD pricing are impacting new launch MSRPs. You're comparing the most expensive PTL laptops you can find, at launch price, to old STX-H models, completely disregarding how much even higher STX-H launch prices were.

We won't have realistically any idea of the price competitiveness unless we have some more info, or wait 6 months and see what Gorgon Point, Gorgon Halo, and PTL-H 12Xe laptop prices look after models have sufficiently launched and there's proper volume from both sides.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It isn't crazy to think that at the very low volumes Intel is putting through 18A that each wafer is quite expensive.

Yeah they're gonna have to recoup that investment somehow, especially given how 18a is now mostly-unrepresented anywhere in DCG. No Diamond Rapids-SP, no Clearwater Forest. There's also the possibility that they're having to throw out dice that, while relatively defect-free, can't clock well enough to make it into anything but the lowest SKUs (if that).

LOL, obviously price doesn't matter. According to people here and reviewers, only battery life when doing basically nothing and GPU performance below 25W matter.

I know you're joking but it did seem kinda fishy that people were so enthusiastic to pay that much money for ultrabook SoCs that didn't perform all that well as CPUs (compared to Arrow Lake anyway).

It's this forum that over-represents desktop replacements that provide performance at the expense of all else.

Is it really that unreasonable to expect Intel to produce better performance at a lower TDP than their previous generation? Intel has only managed to accomplish one of those goals, which does not inspire much confidence in their product. AND they're charging a premium for it.

 

[fastandfurious6]

trivial mistakes

You said it! It's trivial mistake, not "I was gravely wrong" (anywhere in this forum). Sure the $1500/$1800 is misreading with no real effect i.e. Halo $1800 still beats PTL even in price

I believe there will soon be $1500 mark Halo either 388 or 392 😉 the TUF is not released yet


Until now nobody has found any point where I was actually wrong!

These comparisons are just...pointless.

😂 Here's the real market comparison with real links and real benches:

HALO 395 (ASUS ROG):
$2,169 https://www.newegg.com/asus-rog-flo...-wqxga-32gb-memory-1-tb-ssd/p/N82E16834236572

PTL (DELL XPS):
$2,349 https://www.bestbuy.com/product/del...6-32gb-memory-1tb-storage-graphite/J3K4L6QK7C

CPU

GPU


The facts say:

AMD Halo 395 is >100% faster (avg) than Intel Pantherlake (flagship x9 388H).
Intel Pantherlake flagship is two times slower (avg) than AMD Halo 395.
Both CPU GPU.
Halo $200 cheaper (currently)

Goodnight !!!!!!

 

[Khato]

You said it! It's trivial mistake, not "I was gravely wrong" (anywhere in this forum). Sure the $1500/$1800 is misreading with no real effect i.e. Halo $1800 still beats PTL even in price

I believe there will soon be $1500 mark Halo either 388 or 392 😉 the TUF is not released yet

Trivial mistake when first made. Continuing to make the same claim following clear, unequivocal proof that it's incorrect makes it intentional repetition of wrong information.

Everyone is welcome to believe as they wish.

If we want to link gaming laptops to show how 'bad' PTL is in terms of performance per dollar why not go with this one? https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asu...e-rtx-5070-ti-1tb-ssd-eclipse-gray/JJGGLHJLTS I guess the problem there is that it's cheaper and faster than Strix Halo as well?

 

[fastandfurious6]

You're trolling.

The $1500 7950X + RTX5070Ti you linked is well known as the best perf/price ratio right now. I'm the first person who posted that many times here. But it's 2.5kg, not an ultrabook.

I literally just posted real graphs proving

Halo395 is above x2 faster (avg) than PTL.

Cheapest Halo395 I can find: $2149
Cheapest P`€7.55H I can find: $2349

Find a cheaper one! Speak facts, not nonsense

otherwise /thread

 

[jdubs03]

You're trolling.

The $1500 7950X + RTX5070Ti you linked is well known as the best perf/price ratio right now. I'm the first person who posted that many times here. But it's 2.5kg, not an ultrabook.

I literally just posted real graphs proving

Halo395 is above x2 faster (avg) than PTL.

Cheapest Halo395 I can find: $2149
Cheapest P`€7.55H I can find: $2349

Find a cheaper one! Speak facts, not nonsense

otherwise /thread

Just because you say “/thread” doesn’t make it so. You don’t get to single-handedly declare a thread closed. That’s some pompous bs.

Your behavior has been sophomoric now for the past several days. I get that you’re Lisa Su’s biggest fan and like to argue but dude, take a chill pill.

 

[fastandfurious6]

Your behavior has been sophomoric now for the past several days

Give one real, concrete, detailed example! How many empty accusations 😂

obviously the thread will continue, it's near 1000 pages... /thread referred to this silly insistence of hardcore intel fanboys doing logic jumps just to get back to someone showing the truth with facts:

PTL is 100% unviable in real markets other than 20W handhelds (delayed + also expensive):

Info - Intel PantherLake is two times slower & more expensive than AMD Halo 395

AMD HALO 395 laptop: $2,169 Intel Phantomlake (PTL): $2,349 HALO: ASUS ROG, AI MAX+ 395 / RADEON 8060S PTL: DELL XPS, X9 388H / ARC B390 CPU GPU quick CPU facts: - 9950X is #1 desktop cpu in world - Halo 395 has full same 9950X CCDs, only 10-20% slower than desktop - Halo 395 is two times...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[511]

You're trolling.

The $1500 7950X + RTX5070Ti you linked is well known as the best perf/price ratio right now. I'm the first person who posted that many times here. But it's 2.5kg, not an ultrabook.

So why are you listing we are talking about stuff that you can carry and also add price of a screen+keyboard+touchpad/mouse.

I literally just posted real graphs proving

Halo395 is above x2 faster (avg) than PTL.

Cheapest Halo395 I can find: $2149
Cheapest P`€7.55H I can find: $2349

Find a cheaper one! Speak facts, not nonsense

otherwise /thread

Ofc cherry picked model blaming PTL Pricing not OEM Pricing.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Discussing Panther Lake's price at the moment is a fruitless endeavor.


All the first laptops available at MSRP just flew off the shelves, both because volume was probably small to begin with, and because positive reviews generated a lot of demand. Right now we either have models who are taking so long to replenish the stock that stores declared them discontinued, or a couple of models whose stores and distributors decided to scalp their customers.

And in the midst of it, there's the whole mega expensive RAM that is going to affect everything and dilute the SoC price differences.


Strix Halo, at the price AMD demanded from OEMs at launch, continues to be in an uncomfortable position where most laptop makers will prefer to put a Nvidia GPU next to a cheaper CPU.

 

[Nothingness]

As for CPUs, you are correct. I'm only interested in comparing x86 architectures as they are the ones that run Windows and what we are discussing in this thread.

You can't even be sure that AMD and Intel chips are reporting power in a similar way. And even that different generations of the same manufacturer are doing it the same way. I already find SW benchmarking hard to make fairly, but power measurements is even harder.

 

[511]

You can't even be sure that AMD and Intel chips are reporting power in a similar way. And even that different generations of the same manufacturer are doing it the same way. I already find SW benchmarking hard to make fairly, but power measurements is even harder.

You can always use the voltage rails on desktop on laptop you can use power measuring equipment which many reviewers don't use except for Notebook check they are the ones with the best out of the bunch when it comes to that but they don't measure only CPU only power.

 

[Hulk]

You can't even be sure that AMD and Intel chips are reporting power in a similar way. And even that different generations of the same manufacturer are doing it the same way. I already find SW benchmarking hard to make fairly, but power measurements is even harder.

But you can compare package power across intel vs intel and amd vs amd. Also the results show a general trend.

Again, I know when the sky is blue and this isn't a moonshot.

 

[Nothingness]

You can always use the voltage rails on desktop on laptop you can use power measuring equipment which many reviewers don't use except for Notebook check they are the ones with the best out of the bunch when it comes to that but they don't measure only CPU only power.

Don't most reviewers use plain software reads?

But you can compare package power across intel vs intel and amd vs amd. Also the results show a general trend.

How do reviewers get these package power? From some software which relies on what the platform reports?

My point is simple: I'm not sure all these power reported by CPU/platform/whatever are accurate. Wall measured power, this I can trust, but then getting what the CPU/SoC really consumes is hard (though it can be approximated by measuring idle vs loaded power).

 

[Hulk]

Don't most reviewers use plain software reads?


How do reviewers get these package power? From some software which relies on what the platform reports?

My point is simple: I'm not sure all these power reported by CPU/platform/whatever are accurate. Wall measured power, this I can trust, but then getting what the CPU/SoC really consumes is hard (though it can be approximated by measuring idle vs loaded power).

That's a valid opinion on your part and you are of course free to ignore data you believe is suspect.

 

[511]

Don't most reviewers use plain software reads?

GamersNexus uses physical measuring equipment so does NBC not sure about rest of the reviewers

 

[OneEng2]

Entirely dependent on the amortization period, which for Intel is what? 7 years? 10 years?

So .... Intel's plan, in your opinion, is to absorb a 20Bn hit every process iteration (about every ... what 2 years?) into their business model? BTW, that's about half their entire annual revenue.

Seems like a VERY expensive proposition to me. I wonder how much the move to High NA will cost?

This is all exasperated by the low volumes going through those lines to make the cost up over. Compare this to TSMC's N2 which will be more than 100% utilized by the demand. How can this be a good idea for Intel?

Yeah they're gonna have to recoup that investment somehow, especially given how 18a is now mostly-unrepresented anywhere in DCG. No Diamond Rapids-SP, no Clearwater Forest. There's also the possibility that they're having to throw out dice that, while relatively defect-free, can't clock well enough to make it into anything but the lowest SKUs (if that).

I definitely think Intel got out over its skis in risk on this one.

Discussing Panther Lake's price at the moment is a fruitless endeavor.


All the first laptops available at MSRP just flew off the shelves, both because volume was probably small to begin with, and because positive reviews generated a lot of demand.

Fair point. Early adopters will pay much higher prices for the product. If you have very few of them, why not sell them at higher prices?

 

[Nothingness]

That's a valid opinion on your part and you are of course free to ignore data you believe is suspect.

I started thinking about that when I saw the discussion about the difference between SW measurements and measured power at the wall for Mac. I have no reason to believe it's that different on x86.

The company I work for does it with HW probes on most platforms, something Anandtech did at some point IIRC for mobile platforms.

 

[MoistOintment]

So .... Intel's plan, in your opinion, is to absorb a 20Bn hit every process iteration (about every ... what 2 years?) into their business model? BTW, that's about half their entire annual revenue.

Seems like a VERY expensive proposition to me. I wonder how much the move to High NA will cost?

This is all exasperated by the low volumes going through those lines to make the cost up over. Compare this to TSMC's N2 which will be more than 100% utilized by the demand. How can this be a good idea for Intel?

No, the $20B NRE would be amortized over a period of time. Intel expects 18A to be used in some capacity into the 2030's, so I would expect the amortization period to be of a similar time frame. Of course more volume lowers the per unit amortization cost and lack of external customers hurts that volume, but in no way is PTL alone expected to bear the entire NRE expense.

 

[511]

The company I work for does it with HW probes on most platforms, something Anandtech did at some point IIRC for mobile platform

It's the most accurate way to do so and gives the best data but YouTubers can't be bothered it seems

 

[LightningZ71]

That takes time, expertise, investment and an actual desire for quality content that most of them sorely lack.