Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7 360	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	4.8 GHz	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB	6 MB	12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 - 35 W	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5x-7467	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB	48 GB	32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth		83 GB/s	60 GB/s	136 GB/s		120 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	2.6 GHz	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	17 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[lightisgood]

https://videocardz.com/newz/first-g...lake-soc-with-3ghz-arc-a5-gpu-has-been-demoed. 3ghz on gpu on a handheld tsmc 5nm is very efficient.. valve needs a intel powered steamdeck for the steamdeck 2 💻😃

MTL should beat Phoenix. MLID was correct...

 

[mikk]

https://videocardz.com/newz/first-g...lake-soc-with-3ghz-arc-a5-gpu-has-been-demoed. 3ghz on gpu on a handheld tsmc 5nm is very efficient.. valve needs a intel powered steamdeck for the steamdeck 2 💻😃

3 Ghz is most likely a misread. It doesn't even change when he changes the power level on the fly unlike the CPU speed. Software isn't final, such things can happen on a new platform. I wonder if Arc 5 is the full 8 Xe variant or 7 Xe variant.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Given Intel's classic aversion to low console margins, I doubt they'll be making any deals with Valve. Plus Meteor Lake parts are going to be expensive for awhile.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Plus Meteor Lake parts are going to be expensive for awhile.

Remains to be seen. I have a bad feeling about MTL performance, other than its tGPU.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Remains to be seen. I have a bad feeling about MTL performance, other than its tGPU.

The performance won't dictate price. Not for awhile anyway.

 

[lightisgood]

Given Intel's classic aversion to low console margins, I doubt they'll be making any deals with Valve.

Intel dosen't attach importance to UMPC market.
However, it dosen't mean that Intel is very particular about customer.

 

[Geddagod]

MTL should beat Phoenix. MLID was correct...

I wouldn't be too surprised if the iGPU synthetics look pretty good... only to be a lackluster when looking at perf in games themselves. From what I hear, that's the general trend with Intel's iGPUs recently
Also, MTL beating phoenix, overall, as a product? Doubt. Guessing it's going to be close though.

 

[S'renne]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the iGPU synthetics look pretty good... only to be a lackluster when looking at perf in games themselves. From what I hear, that's the general trend with Intel's iGPUs recently
Also, MTL beating phoenix, overall, as a product? Doubt. Guessing it's going to be close though.

Hope its close enough though, but even if it isn't, it still offers similar features I think, and still has more availability than Phoenix later down the line

 

[Geddagod]

Hope its close enough though, but even if it isn't, it still offers similar features I think, and still has more availability than Phoenix later down the line

Only reason it might end up having more availability than Phoenix wouldn't be because Intel is pumping out MTL, but because AMD just sucks at mobile volume. I think the existence of RPL and RPL-R mobile and MTL launching so late is pretty indicative of that.

 

[S'renne]

Only reason it might end up having more availability than Phoenix wouldn't be because Intel is pumping out MTL, but because AMD just sucks at mobile volume. I think the existence of RPL and RPL-R mobile and MTL launching so late is pretty indicative of that.

I'm just waiting on MTL efficiency benchmarks anyways since my real interest is Arrow Lake, I want a desktop replacement laptop with ARL lol

 

[mikk]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the iGPU synthetics look pretty good... only to be a lackluster when looking at perf in games themselves. From what I hear, that's the general trend with Intel's iGPUs recently
Also, MTL beating phoenix, overall, as a product? Doubt. Guessing it's going to be close though.

With a 2x improvement over Iris Xe they can easily match Phoenix. When it comes to 3dmark I would use timespy graphics, I think it needs roughly 3500 points to match Phoenix. This is based on A380 vs RX6400. A380 scores 15-20% higher whereas in real world they are evenly matched. The fastest Phoenix 780M devices score 2800-2900 points. 15-20% higher than this gives roughly 3500 points. I think this is doable for MTL-H tGPU at 2.2 Ghz.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Intel dosen't attach importance to UMPC market.
However, it dosen't mean that Intel is very particular about customer.

Yes, but please keep in mind that Valve DOES attach importance to BoM.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

With a 2x improvement over Iris Xe they can easily match Phoenix. When it comes to 3dmark I would use timespy graphics, I think it needs roughly 3500 points to match Phoenix. This is based on A380 vs RX6400. A380 scores 15-20% higher whereas in real world they are evenly matched. The fastest Phoenix 780M devices score 2800-2900 points. 15-20% higher than this gives roughly 3500 points. I think this is doable for MTL-H tGPU at 2.2 Ghz.

It probably is doable at 2.2GHz, but what I want to know is the power limit for that frequency.
If 35-45W is enough for that then great, If more is needed then not great.

 

[mikk]

It probably is doable at 2.2GHz, but what I want to know is the power limit for that frequency.
If 35-45W is enough for that then great, If more is needed then not great.

Phoenix requires more than 50W to reach 2800-2900 points, the fastest one use 70-80W.

 

[Geddagod]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-ultra-7-155h-underwhelms-in-passmark-database-appearance

MT score is... questionable, though we don't know what TDP is used
ST score of >5%. Not good, but not bad either. Intel doesn't need a massive ST bump to compete with Phoenix, so it's not too disappointing.

Oh also, talk on Twitter from Raichu +Bionic is that :
ARL-H GPU tile uses N4P, and it has some improvements and is not a complete refresh of the MTL-H iGPU die (doubled L2 and XMX). Though it's not BMG.
ARL-S reuses the 64 EU GPU tile of MTL though

 

[H433x0n]

I wouldn't be too surprised if the iGPU synthetics look pretty good... only to be a lackluster when looking at perf in games themselves. From what I hear, that's the general trend with Intel's iGPUs recently
Also, MTL beating phoenix, overall, as a product? Doubt. Guessing it's going to be close though.

What’s considered beating Phoenix overall? You don’t think it’ll manage a 15-20% boost to performance at isopower sub 55W?

Edit: That link you posted has an odd MT score. Crestmont has ~5% IPC increase and most MTL SKUs will have similar (or greater) e-core clocks over RPL. This benchmark had to be power or thermal limited.

 

[lightisgood]

Probably, low power limit generates low MT score.
I'm very optimistic about MTL MT performance.

By the way, I have a great interest in 5.6% ST score boost rather than low MT score.
Intel said that Redwood Cove has Rapter Cove's IPC on the whole, didn't it?
I don't think 5.6% ST boost is small difference....
Intel provided sloppy explanation about Redwood Cove, RIGHT?
I'd like to see other ST benchmark cautiously.

 

[H433x0n]

Probably, low power limit generates low MT score.
I'm very optimistic about MTL MT performance.

By the way, I have a great interest in 5.6% ST score boost rather than low MT score.
Intel said that Redwood Cove has Rapter Cove's IPC on the whole, didn't it?
I don't think 5.6% ST boost is small difference....
Intel provided sloppy explanation about Redwood Cove, RIGHT?
I'd like to see other ST benchmark cautiously.

5.6% ST increase seems too good to be true tbh. I doubt that ends up being a representative result.

 

[Geddagod]

What’s considered beating Phoenix overall? You don’t think it’ll manage a 10-12% boost to performance at isopower sub 55W?

It's closer to 15-20%, which is cutting it really close. I think it will tie or maybe even slightly lose to Phoenix tbh. Also, in single core perf/watt (for RWC), I believe it will be worse there as well.
In iGPU, it appears to be better
In battery life, I mean Intel claims 2x, but that's highly dependent on how they test battery life. I expect a massive improvement, but there's a lot of ground to cover too.
And in ST peak performance, I expect them to be roughly tied.

This isn't an overall win over Phoenix, since they have some areas where they might lose (albeit slightly) or be tied in. What's even worse is how much later it's coming compared to Phoenix as well, and how much more expensive it looks to be too. At best one could say this is a slightly buffed Phoenix, depending on what metric you are comparing it for.

 

[S'renne]

It's closer to 15-20%, which is cutting it really close. I think it will tie or maybe even slightly lose to Phoenix tbh. Also, in single core perf/watt (for RWC), I believe it will be worse there as well.
In iGPU, it appears to be better
In battery life, I mean Intel claims 2x, but that's highly dependent on how they test battery life. I expect a massive improvement, but there's a lot of ground to cover too.
And in ST peak performance, I expect them to be roughly tied.

This isn't an overall win over Phoenix, since they have some areas where they might lose (albeit slightly) or be tied in. What's even worse is how much later it's coming compared to Phoenix as well, and how much more expensive it looks to be too. At best one could say this is a slightly buffed Phoenix, depending on what metric you are comparing it for.

Btw doesn't Meteor Lake's NPU has better software support than AMD's Xilinx NPU from their demo? They at least also have better software support compared to AMD in that area

 

[Geddagod]

Btw doesn't Meteor Lake's NPU has better software support than AMD's Xilinx NPU from their demo? They at least also have better software support compared to AMD in that area

Tbh completely forgot about the entire AI element of both Intel and AMD mobile chips. No idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Phoenix requires more than 50W to reach 2800-2900 points, the fastest one use 70-80W.

You don't need that much power.

Ryzen Z1 Extreme => PL4:53W, PL2:43W, PL1:30W
Time Spy Graphics: 2854 points
PL4 duration is ~10s
PL2 duration is ~450s

TimeSpy will finish within PL2 duration, so 43W highest for Phoenix.

Comparable performance at ~45W would be great for Meteor Lake.

 

[H433x0n]

It's closer to 15-20%, which is cutting it really close. I think it will tie or maybe even slightly lose to Phoenix tbh. Also, in single core perf/watt (for RWC), I believe it will be worse there as well.
In iGPU, it appears to be better
In battery life, I mean Intel claims 2x, but that's highly dependent on how they test battery life. I expect a massive improvement, but there's a lot of ground to cover too.
And in ST peak performance, I expect them to be roughly tied.

This isn't an overall win over Phoenix, since they have some areas where they might lose (albeit slightly) or be tied in. What's even worse is how much later it's coming compared to Phoenix as well, and how much more expensive it looks to be too. At best one could say this is a slightly buffed Phoenix, depending on what metric you are comparing it for.

I'd take that outcome tbh. Phoenix is on N4P, arguably the best TSMC has to offer at the moment. It's also going against Zen 4, probably the best overall core design in the past 10 years. If it matches Phoenix efficiency (+ or - 5%) I would say that's the best position Intel has had in a while especially since they can actually provide volume and support.

 

[S'renne]

Tbh completely forgot about the entire AI element of both Intel and AMD mobile chips. No idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Part of the main selling point of both Meteor Lake and Phoenix Point is the AI element I'm pretty sure(even though most people don't care instead)

 

[mikk]

You don't need that much power.

Ryzen Z1 Extreme => PL4:53W, PL2:43W, PL1:30W
Time Spy Graphics: 2854 points
PL4 duration is ~10s
PL2 duration is ~450s

TimeSpy will finish within PL2 duration, so 43W highest for Phoenix.

Comparable performance at ~45W would be great for Meteor Lake.

This is a special binned and tuned model for handheld only. In a regular notebook most OEMs go for performance to gain just a few percent which require 20-40W more power, although I would expect a handheld OEM even with a regular SKU won't be so crazy.

Oh also, talk on Twitter from Raichu +Bionic is that :
ARL-H GPU tile uses N4P, and it has some improvements and is not a complete refresh of the MTL-H iGPU die (doubled L2 and XMX). Though it's not BMG.
ARL-S reuses the 64 EU GPU tile of MTL though

He also said the GT3 version had been cancelled. This was expected to me. GT2 with unchanged 128EUs is disappointing if true. This comes with a limited increase in GPU performance in the next generation. ADM is also unlikely without GT3. It's a poor execution that they couldn't switch to Xe2, Lunar Lake gets it in a similar launch timeframe.