Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[QuickyDuck]

Hybrid core as a concept is great but software side was never there.
Intel offer far more advanced packaging but it results in a product with some inferior characteristic.
People care about AVX512 because Intel used to be the benchmark but now they're falling behind.
It's hard to swallow if you offer something then taking it away.

People are bashing Intel because they expect Intel offer something better.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I urge you to follow some tuning guides, like the PCGH or Skatterbencher if you haven't already. I got my memory latency down to 77ns, D2D is 3,4, NGU 3,3 and Ring at 4. 4,9E and 5,5P and 7200 UDIMM. It feels like Raptor Lake !

How does the storage I/O speed look like now compared to Raptor Lake?

 

[DrMrLordX]

People are bashing Intel because they expect Intel offer something better.

That and two generations of desktop CPUs that had/have high failure rates.

 

[511]

Ryzen SMT is more performant than Intel HT so those with especially eight or fewer cores can expect a longer and more satisfying computing experience than people with hybrid Intel cores whose computing experience will get diluted a bit when the extra threads will have no choice but to run on the slower E-cores.

AMD has optimized their arch in a way to boost SMT Performance Intel has decided to get rid of it to focus on pure ST.

For Intel to win over this crowd in 26H2, their E-cores need to be VERY close in performance to Zen 6 cores and their P-cores need to convincingly beat or essentially tie the average performance of Zen 6 cores over a wide variety of workloads. People will switch back to Intel if given enough sufficient reasons to do so. Unfortunately, Intel (and specifically Pat) gave most users enough reasons to give up on them.

E cores close in terms of IPC should be possible. And you are blaming Swan's mistakes on Pat tbh at this time
MTL/ARL/RPL/LNL are Swan Era products the only good thing swan has done is outsource to TSMC that's the only good thing.

If you want to judge pat judge him on the basis of PTL/GNR/NVL/DMR/18A

 

[igor_kavinski]

If you want to judge pat judge him on the basis of PTL/GNR/NVL/DMR/18A

Very convenient to offer unreleased products for judging

Don't care about server products since they are not affordable.

 

[adroc_thurston]

AMD has optimized their arch in a way to boost SMT Performance

They didn't.
They just like SMT.

MTL/ARL/RPL/LNL are Swan Era products

They were *started* under Swan, but any issues with them in the end are squarely on Pat.
RPL explodes and MTL is full of bugs, but Bobby has diddy squat to do with them in the end.

 

[igor_kavinski]

^^^ That seals the deal. Most people think that Pat was unable to steer Intel properly towards success. I think he even considered himself untouchable.

 

[poke01]

^^^ That seals the deal. Most people think that Pat was unable to steer Intel properly towards success. I think he even considered himself untouchable.

Thing is it’s also the management itself that sucks. Intel can switch to any capable CEO like Lisa or Jim etc but at end of the day if the rot is not removed then it’s too late.

Intel is a company riding on subpar products.
Anything Intel has, AMD has better and leaner and more cost friendly for both consumers and other clients

 

[DavidC1]

They were *started* under Swan, but any issues with them in the end are squarely on Pat.
RPL explodes and MTL is full of bugs, but Bobby has diddy squat to do with them in the end.

Meteorlake isn't full Pat, as it's basically a victim of the 7nm delay. The delay to Meteorlake was hinted while Swan was still in charge. Without the delay, Raptorlake would not exist. Which means even Raptorlake has influence of Swan.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1592...ke-pragmatic-approach-in-using-3rd-party-fabs

The first 7nm client CPUs are now not expected before late 2022 or early 2023. Meanwhile the first 7nm server part is not expected until the first half of 2023.

According to that data, even with the endless 10nm delay, Raptorlake should not have existed and we'd have seen Meteorlake in late 2022.

Of course since Gelsinger came in at early 2021, and it's 4 years now, a significant part of execution does fall upon him. Arrowlake and Granite Rapids shows the execution still needs to improve substantially.

^^^ That seals the deal. Most people think that Pat was unable to steer Intel properly towards success. I think he even considered himself untouchable.

While he made a lot of mistakes, Pat also did a lot of good. Without his work, it would have stopped at Intel 7 and plans would have been well under splitting the company with the foundry division eventually being considered worthless.

You seem to latch on everything on his fault, which is a kind of bias and is an emotional reaction.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Meteorlake isn't full Pat, as it's basically a victim of the 7nm delay.

That's not the issue, it was an apocalyptic mess in post-Si validation.
It was under him that Intel's post-Si teams reached clinical death.

 

[poke01]

CPUs, MB platform - AMD better
GPUs IP/hardware and software - AMD better
AI - AMD better
Sony and Microsoft console partnerships VERY IMPORTANT - AMD has em.

What does intel have?
Expensive to run and maintain fabs with no whales
Client laptop/OEMs - big but slowly creeping away

That’s it

 

[adroc_thurston]

CPUs, MB platform - AMD better

Intel still has better higher-end client mobo platforms.

GPUs IP/hardware and software - AMD better

Intel never had any chance there. Ever.

Expensive to run and maintain fabs with no whales

They do have some node and especially packaging wins. They'll be fine.

Client laptop/OEMs - big but slowly creepy away

now THAT is scary since there's a smalltime apocalypse happening in commercial.

 

[DavidC1]

Thing is it’s also the management itself that sucks. Intel can switch to any capable CEO like Lisa or Jim etc but at end of the day if the rot is not removed then it’s too late.

This rot isn't something that can be removed in few years. Because whatever made them Intel, whatever made them what they are and successful is the part that has rotten.

So the replacement has to be a successful strategy and culture which replaces that. 90% of businesses fail, and out of what's left, half of them show any signs of success. Making a successful replacement strategy is extremely risky.

From what I read successful businesses like Intel isn't just gathering some smart people together and throwing them in a pot and mixing them in. You need people that agree on the same vision, those that can not just tolerate, but thrive and motivate each other. And on top of that, management that can balance the fine line between dramatic changes and tempered execution.

 

[Io Magnesso]

I'm sure you could find a few if you look around. One you are using right now though would be x86-64, or you know, AMD64 as it was once called . And before you say it was based on an Intel design, think about what Intel was trying to do back then. Force IA64 on the world while leaving x86 to die off. I think it worked out for the best in the end.

That being said, x86_64, which is said to be AMD64, is certainly the first 64-bit commands made by AMD.However, it is not that Intel has not made anything.
That's the advantage of cross licensing...

 

[Io Magnesso]

It's hard to verify Silicon... There are many things that cannot be understood unless you are actually involved in semiconductors.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You seem to latch on everything on his fault, which is a kind of bias and is an emotional reaction.

He put the company in jeopardy trying to supply Meteor Lake on priority with the hot lots fiasco ($$$ billions expensive) and reportedly, that led to the via oxidation issue too. He certainly did not act like a CEO who knew what he was doing.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's hard to verify Silicon.

Yet AMD has no such issues.

 

[Io Magnesso]

Well, after all, we're just "outfield"

 

[Io Magnesso]

Yet AMD has no such issues.

Well, there seems to be no problem with AMD so far.

 

[511]

CPUs, MB platform - AMD better
GPUs IP/hardware and software - AMD better
AI - AMD better
Sony and Microsoft console partnerships VERY IMPORTANT - AMD has em.

MB Platform Intel is superior here in terms of feature set unless you consider TB5/10GBE/WIFI7 as not features also Support for faster DRAM that AMD doesn't.
what about CPU SW and dev tools Intel is superior there.

Intel is clearly superior

Also didn't AMD CEO once Said real men have fabs 🤣🤣

 

[eek2121]

MB Platform Intel is superior here in terms of feature set unless you consider TB5/10GBE/WIFI7 as not features also Support for faster DRAM that AMD doesn't.
what about CPU SW and dev tools Intel is superior there.

Intel is clearly superior

Also didn't AMD CEO once Said real men have fabs 🤣🤣

While I am not disagreeing, I want to point out that AMD has mostly caught up in the DRAM department.

 

[511]

duplicate

 

[511]

While I am not disagreeing, I want to point out that AMD has mostly caught up in the DRAM department.

When they can do DDR5 8000 in warranty sure 🤣

 

[AcrosTinus]

I'm not strictly anti-Intel. I have more Intel hardware (only some FX chip, 2700X, 9950X3D and Zen 2 128 thread Epyc from AMD).

I think one reason people overpromote AMD is because they think (rightfully so) that AMD needs to gain more marketshare which would be great to fuel even more innovation and competition between the two x86 players and bring prices down for everyone. Let's face it. Even if Intel does come out with superior hardware in 2026, their prices will remain higher. The AMD overpromoters are trying to ensure that the general public knows that Intel isn't the only player in town, especially since a VAST majority of people don't even know that AMD exists. When they try to point out the benefits of AMD hardware, I think the underlying motive is more to educate the public than to downplay Intel's strengths. Intel was, after all, the 800 pound gorilla (and arrogantly behaving like one) for a very long time and this pissed a lot of people into going AMD and never returning.

And here is where I think you are wrong, the order is important. AMD does not need more marketshare, there is no industry where the competing companies share what people would consider a "fair" share of the pie. This gain in marketshare is a natrual result of just providing the better product for a specific need and here AMD is doing well. A overpromotion is not needed and just distorts the market.

• Here in Germany, AMD is more expansive for the compute you get. Also the mainboards are more expensive.
• AMD charges equivalent prices for a worse product(in the compute and feature sense), see current x86 offerings and even in the GPU space. They have similar raw grunt but fall apart the minute you start looking closely at the quality of the features. (for most consumers the difference might be negligible) and this is the main reason I don't really like AMD hardware. It is great for specific tasks but you will still encounter scenarios where the last step of polish is lacking and no one cares. But on the Intel side people turn into detectives. I still fondly remember how the media rediscovered overclocking and memory tuning the moment the vanilla Zen5 was underperforming, the bias was so strong I could smell it through my screen.

The only thing I will give AMD credit for, is Epyc and it's derivatives for the desktop, a HEDT system that is low latency, well done ! My 7960x just runs and reminds me of the x99 days.

 

[AcrosTinus]

Hybrid core as a concept is great but software side was never there.
Intel offer far more advanced packaging but it results in a product with some inferior characteristic.
People care about AVX512 because Intel used to be the benchmark but now they're falling behind.
It's hard to swallow if you offer something then taking it away.

People are bashing Intel because they expect Intel offer something better.

Valid, can't argue against that.