Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[DavidC1]

Are you saying Lunar Lake Skymont is 7% faster than Apple M3 P core??? Which also directly implies that Lunar Lake Lion Cove will be even more faster than Apple M3 P core? Claim sounds a bit excessive I feel.

No, I'm saying that about Arctic Wolf.

30% on top of that...

Explanations of the Clustered Decode scheme: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/intel-mont-thread.2610727/page-10

 

[DavidC1]

!It literally claims that LionCove got an 8x larger prediction block!

Don't read into it too much. It's increasing a subsection of it, not the entire BPU. It would be a waste because of diminishing returns. 8x would require radically better branch predictor algorithms.

Think of why the gain is relatively low at 14%. We know why it's only 16% for Zen 5, because they cut resources on few parts. We don't know the details for Lion Cove.

The MLID leak that the gain is small for ARL sounds similar to the Intel leak that Igorslab and others posted many months ago. Maybe he's just repeating it.

 

[Geddagod]

Intel slide itself says Lunar Lake LNC has 14% uplift. And Arrow Lake LNC has to be more. And this guy funnily claims just 3%. Maybe he had a nerfed ES. Better to ignore fake claims.

He was talking about ST perf, not IPC uplift. I swear, he must have said "ST" like 2 or 3 times in that chat lmao.

 

[FlameTail]

No, I'm saying that about Arctic Wolf.

Wolf?

 

[SiliconFly]

He was talking about ST perf, not IPC uplift. I swear, he must have said "ST" like 2 or 3 times in that chat lmao.

Agreed. But ST perf is still a function of IPC. A 14% IPC uplift can't translate to just 3% ST perf even after factoring in all assumed limitations (like some tile penalty, some clock regression, etc). Also, that 14% is LNL. ARL should be higher. ARL with just 3% overall ST perf increase is just plain wrong imho. Looks like he has a bad sample.

 

[poke01]

Wolf?

What, the fact its not didn't end in mont shock you?

 

[SiliconFly]

Wolf?

What, the fact its not didn't end in mont shock you?

Actually, kinda!

Intel ditching code names and shifting to new ones is a bit unusual and indicates a serious change is coming our way. I'm guessing Arctic Wolf is gonna be another major leap!

 

[poke01]

Actually, kinda!

Intel ditching code names and shifting to new ones is a bit unusual and indicates a serious change is coming our way. I'm guessing Arctic Wolf is gonna be another major leap!

Arctic Wolf is a killer codename for a CPU core

 

[FlameTail]

So perhaps Arctic Wolf will be the clean-sheet redesign of the P-core, or a grand evolution of the Atom/Mont lineage to supersede the languishing Cove dynasty.

 

[DavidC1]

So perhaps Arctic Wolf will be the clean-sheet redesign of the P-core, or a grand evolution of the Atom/Mont lineage to supersede the languishing Cove dynasty.

Arctic Wolf is the successor to Skymont/Darkmont, so an E core.

By that time though, performance will no longer be a "little" core.

Actually, kinda!

Intel ditching code names and shifting to new ones is a bit unusual and indicates a serious change is coming our way. I'm guessing Arctic Wolf is gonna be another major leap!

Not necessarily.

Remember Goldmont "Plus"?

@poke01 I do like the name. Sounds aggressive.

 

[SiliconFly]

So perhaps Arctic Wolf will be the clean-sheet redesign of the P-core, or a grand evolution of the Atom/Mont lineage to supersede the languishing Cove dynasty.

Looking at the way things are going, the Wolf may take over the Cove.

Arctic Wolf is the successor to Skymont/Darkmont, so an E core.

It is one possibility. But not necessarily the only one.

We know Nova Lake has Arctic Wolf cores & the name of the "other" core is still unknown. In essence, one other possibility is, Arctic Wolf might as well be the P core & we don't know the name of the E core yet!

Another remote possibility is, we may not have 2 different cores anymore. Just Arctic Wolf cores in different configurations (like in Zen).

But one thing has been bugging me for a while and I still can't put my finger on it. It's the same old Rentable Units. They require a significantly modified core with a ton of support for RU. And rumor has it that Nova Lake debuts RU. And considering the timeline, name change, & the missing name of the "other" core, everything fits frighteningly well like a jigsaw puzzle. Is Arctic Wolf actually a RU core? That possibility too exists.

 

[DavidC1]

When CPUs went superscalar(that is, more than 1 decode), then the 2-wide improved performance by nearly 2x in many applications. When they went to 3-wide, then the improvement was still significant but more muted.

Above 3-wide it is said to help with peaks. The averages are helped by improving it elsewhere so more can reach higher performance. So going from 3 to 4 requires boosting it elsewhere, 4 to 5 more, and on and on. Core 2 is greater than 50% faster compared to Pentium III, so it has higher utilization on it's 4 decoders than Pentium III on it's 3.

 

[cannedlake240]

Btw it's Q3 already, any news on 18A pdk 1.0?

 

[SiliconFly]

And one more thing...

This one is from the Intel P core team engineer. Lion Cove version that goes into Lunar Lake is different in several aspects compared to the version that goes into Arrow Lake later this year.

They may not even be close! That >20% uplift is still very much a possibility.

 

[ondma]

And one more thing...

This one is from the Intel P core team engineer. Lion Cove version that goes into Lunar Lake is different in several aspects compared to the version that goes into Arrow Lake later this year.

They may not even be close! That >20% uplift is still very much a possibility.

You're dreaming!

 

[Kepler_L2]

So does this mean that you have also received the same info as the OEMs? And that includes all the specs for Arrow Lake Refresh for desktop too, or only Arrow Lake Refresh for laptop?

Because the leak/rumor about 8P+32E was for desktop, not laptop.

Arrow Lake refresh is just for desktop, mobile will get Panther Lake.

 

[mikk]

Looking at the way things are going, the Wolf may take over the Cove.

Won't happen in the foreseeable future. Lion Cove is made for future scalability in mind Intel said, they resolved some roadblocks to make it easier for subsequent P core generations. From this message it's obvious they will build the next P-cores based from a further improved Lion Cove instead of something entirely new like E-core or Royal Core.

 

[Henry swagger]

Looking at the way things are going, the Wolf may take over the Cove.


It is one possibility. But not necessarily the only one.

We know Nova Lake has Arctic Wolf cores & the name of the "other" core is still unknown. In essence, one other possibility is, Arctic Wolf might as well be the P core & we don't know the name of the E core yet!

Another remote possibility is, we may not have 2 different cores anymore. Just Arctic Wolf cores in different configurations (like in Zen).

But one thing has been bugging me for a while and I still can't put my finger on it. It's the same old Rentable Units. They require a significantly modified core with a ton of support for RU. And rumor has it that Nova Lake debuts RU. And considering the timeline, name change, & the missing name of the "other" core, everything fits frighteningly well like a jigsaw puzzle. Is Arctic Wolf actually a RU core? That possibility too exists.

Arctic wolf is the core jim Keller worked on.. 12 wide core maybe 10 int alu 🙂

 

[SiliconFly]

Arctic wolf is the core jim Keller worked on.. 12 wide core maybe 10 int alu 🙂

Sounds like quite a possibility at this point. Any pointers though? Will make it a very interesting read.

Long back MLID kept harping that nova lake is royal core and it's getting RU. Arctic Wolf aligns *perfectly* with that rumor and a few others as well. Exciting times ahead.

Won't happen in the foreseeable future. Lion Cove is made for future scalability in mind Intel said, they resolved some roadblocks to make it easier for subsequent P core generations. From this message it's obvious they will build the next P-cores based from a further improved Lion Cove instead of something entirely new like E-core or Royal Core.

Lion Cove won't be entirely replaced. But if Arctic Wolf is a RU core, Lion Cove may get pushed to a secondary role.

You're dreaming!

Dreams are essential!

 

[Fjodor2001]

Arrow Lake refresh is just for desktop, mobile will get Panther Lake.

The article below says there will be an Arrow Lake Refresh for the H and HX laptop CPUs too.

Clevo's CPU laptop roadmap leaked: Intel Arrow Lake-HX to compete with AMD Fire Range (X3D) SKUs in 2025 - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake, Arrow Lake-Refresh, Panther Lake & AMD Fire Range, Strix Halo Clevo reveals what’s in store for Intel and AMD products. Intel and AMD roadmaps have been exposed through Clevo documents, which were published after a security breach. These documents outline the one and two-year...

videocardz.com

 

[cannedlake240]

Won't happen in the foreseeable future. Lion Cove is made for future scalability in mind Intel said, they resolved some roadblocks to make it easier for subsequent P core generations. From this message it's obvious they will build the next P-cores based from a further improved Lion Cove instead of something entirely new like E-core or Royal Core.

Royal core is probably still a thing, just might not be ready for NVL launch timeframe and will arrive in the generation after nvl. LNC, while an improvement over Golden cove, is still behind Z5 and M4 P cores in area, power. Caches for example, LNC has the largest amount of combined core private and LLC among general purpose high performance cores, while being at PPC parity. Royal core or not they could definitely benefit from a "ground up" core

 

[SiliconFly]

Royal core is probably still a thing, just might not be ready for NVL launch timeframe and will arrive in the generation after nvl. LNC, while an improvement over Golden cove, is still behind Z5 and M4 P cores in area, power. Caches for example, LNC has the largest amount of combined core private and LLC among general purpose high performance cores, while being at PPC parity. Royal core or not they could definitely benefit from a "ground up" core

A "ground up" x86 core sounds awesome, but improbable. They already have 2 core designs actively in development. But I think Royal Core, if it exists, will naturally have to be different from these two. It has to be a RU core. All the leaks and timeline match perfectly. It just has to be it.

Assuming it exists, it may not be ready and might get pushed further. But if it is real & it's coming, omg!

 

[Geddagod]

Agreed. But ST perf is still a function of IPC. A 14% IPC uplift can't translate to just 3% ST perf even after factoring in all assumed limitations (like some tile penalty, some clock regression, etc). Also, that 14% is LNL. ARL should be higher. ARL with just 3% overall ST perf increase is just plain wrong imho. Looks like he has a bad sample.

A 14% IPC uplift can easily translate over to just 3% ST perf. It would just mean ARL is clocking at the low 5GHz range, rather than the rumored 5.7GHz. And the final version could end up being 5.7GHz, since he even says he has an ES2, but the final ST perf uplift is still likely to be pretty low, as in like 10% perhaps, at best.

Don't forget, the low ST perf leaks have been here for a while, from Igor's leak, and other leakers. The 30% perf uplift pipedream was just MLID.

Looking at the way things are going, the Wolf may take over the Cove.


It is one possibility. But not necessarily the only one.

We know Nova Lake has Arctic Wolf cores & the name of the "other" core is still unknown. In essence, one other possibility is, Arctic Wolf might as well be the P core & we don't know the name of the E core yet!

Another remote possibility is, we may not have 2 different cores anymore. Just Arctic Wolf cores in different configurations (like in Zen).

But one thing has been bugging me for a while and I still can't put my finger on it. It's the same old Rentable Units. They require a significantly modified core with a ton of support for RU. And rumor has it that Nova Lake debuts RU. And considering the timeline, name change, & the missing name of the "other" core, everything fits frighteningly well like a jigsaw puzzle. Is Arctic Wolf actually a RU core? That possibility too exists.

The "other core's" name has been leaked for a while. Panther Cove.

The article below says there will be an Arrow Lake Refresh for the H and HX laptop CPUs too.

Clevo's CPU laptop roadmap leaked: Intel Arrow Lake-HX to compete with AMD Fire Range (X3D) SKUs in 2025 - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake, Arrow Lake-Refresh, Panther Lake & AMD Fire Range, Strix Halo Clevo reveals what’s in store for Intel and AMD products. Intel and AMD roadmaps have been exposed through Clevo documents, which were published after a security breach. These documents outline the one and two-year...

videocardz.com

HX has long been just desktop parts in mobile.

Royal core is probably still a thing, just might not be ready for NVL launch timeframe and will arrive in the generation after nvl. LNC, while an improvement over Golden cove, is still behind Z5 and M4 P cores in area, power. Caches for example, LNC has the largest amount of combined core private and LLC among general purpose high performance cores, while being at PPC parity. Royal core or not they could definitely benefit from a "ground up" core

I've always wondered why Intel has always dedicated so much area (and presumably a decent amount of power) towards core private caches (or even cache available to the core in general) compared to the competition.

 

[Fjodor2001]

HX has long been just desktop parts in mobile.

If you mean that it’s close to the desktop parts, then yes I know. But there differences, and it’s still a mobile SKU though.

 

[Geddagod]

If you mean that it’s close to the desktop parts, then yes I know. But there differences, and it’s still a mobile SKU though.

I mean they are literally desktop silicon. There is a possibility ARL-HX could be the desktop CPU tile with the mobile SOC tile and iGPU tile, but I would be pretty surprised if that was the case, I doubt it.
But I feel like this is just being pedantic lol.
I for one, think the rumor that the 8+32 desktop sku for ARL-R being canned, is very believable. And the focus on the NPU being improved on ARL-R also makes sense, I suppose they would try to improve it to the point it can hit the 40 TOPs requirement Microsoft wants?