Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[SiliconFly]

Intel seems dedicated to the hybrid approach. If anything P core count will go down I think.

Looks like it. Future P cores might be more massive than the existing P cores, but might be very power efficient and might have very high IPC at lower clocks when compared to existing P cores.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Intel seems dedicated to the hybrid approach. If anything P core count will go down I think.

Looks like it. Future P cores might be more massive than the existing P cores, but might be very power efficient and might have very high IPC at lower clocks when compared to existing P cores.

I think Intel will want to keep at least 6-8 P-cores.
E-cores can increase nT performance, but you also need to keep in mind how many threads the App can load.

If you have an App which can use up to 12 threads, then 8P+4e would perform better than 4P+16E.

 

[Abwx]

Yeah, what if this "pcode" update (if it's even real) all it does is boost PL2 time or power? I don't even know if the reviews we've seen that test power disable PL2 or not? because it's pointless to compare at 28W or at 45W if PL2 is much higher and affects scores significantly. I've a 12500H and I know these 13500H scores of 14200 at "65W" are absolute BS, it barely gets above 12000 points when 65W enforced properly.
So that chinese youtube review is not enforcing power limits properly, I've seen Alder Lake and Raptor Lake have similar efficiency as demonstrated by Jarrod Tech when comparing 12700H vs 13700H, so 13500H is just not getting like 15%-18% higher points at same power than my 12500H.

When set to 45W the chip boost to 64W for 35s, if set at 35W it will still boost to 64W but for a shorter 25s time, that s what was measured at Computerbase, they may play with even higher PL2 power or longer duration, that s surely their new pcode...

Actually in Cinebench and other MT benchs they even put to contribution the two LPE cores to grab some perf drops, given that they use a new process a 7840U/HS should be no match for a 6P + 10E that is the equivalent of a 11 P cores or so, if even AMD release a cut down Strix Point with 10C it will be a slaughter, we dont even talk of the 12C, even a Zen 4 based such chips would be overhelmingly dominant.

Intel Meteor Lake anhand des Core Ultra 7 155H im Test

Das Acer Swift Go 14 ermöglicht einen Ersteindruck zu Meteor Lake, der dieselbe Single-, mehr Multi-Core- und viel mehr GPU-Leistung bietet.

www.computerbase.de

 

[tamz_msc]

It would seem that some people are still clueless about how PL1/2 and Tau works on Intel mobile CPUs since Tiger Lake. As a result, they clutter these Intel threads with useless information and analyses.

 

[Abwx]

It would seem that some people are still clueless about how PL1/2 and Tau works on Intel mobile CPUs since Tiger Lake. As a result, they clutter these Intel threads with useless information and analyses.

You know better than Computerbase, they have curves of power vs time, not bla bla from the usual nay sayer, talk of being useless, you re filling the thread disgruntedly because your favourite brand released a half baked chip...

 

[clemsyn]

Microcenter here already shows availability of Meteor Lake laptops..8 in stock for Acer Swift Go ($999) and 3 for MSI Prestige ($1499). I was expecting a paper launch. Impressive!

 

[tamz_msc]

You know better than Computerbase, they have curves of power vs time, not bla bla from the usual nay sayer, talk of being useless, you re filling the thread disgruntedly because your favourite brand released a half baked chip...

It doesn't matter who tested what. Unless Dynamic Tuning is disabled, speaking about power limits and boost durations are meaningless.

 

[Abwx]

It doesn't matter who tested what. Unless Dynamic Tuning is disabled, speaking about power limits and boost durations are meaningless.

What is useless is to talk out of the vaccum, as said Computerbase tested at stock settings, there is a 35 and a 45W setting in the Acer laptop they got, and they measured what i posted, i m talking of actual data while you re just trolling with non sense.

 

[SiliconFly]

You know better than Computerbase, they have curves of power vs time, not bla bla from the usual nay sayer, talk of being useless, you re filling the thread disgruntedly because your favourite brand released a half baked chip...

To calculate real power efficiency, we not only need to plot the power usage curve, we also need to calculate the area under the curve and then compare ratios. No one in their right mind will waste so much of their time doing that considering the CPU power usage plots pretty much keeps fluctuating making area under the curve a nightmare to calculate. Not worth our time.

Other indirect but easier way of calculating power usage of 2 CPUs is to first ensure they have the SAME performance or at least very similar. Then running power usage tests on both CPUs designed to highlight their design goals or real world usage scenarios. Not CB.

Throwing PL1 and PL2 numbers and saying one is more power efficient than the other is just plain wrong.

 

[SiliconFly]

What is useless is to talk out of the vaccum, as said Computerbase tested at stock settings, there is a 35 and a 45W setting in the Acer laptop they got, and they measured what i posted, i m talking of actual data while you re just trolling with non sense.

...Unless Dynamic Tuning is disabled...

I don't think it's nonsense. I think he may be right.

 

[FlameTail]

That's support for a whopping 16 USB ports.

Why though? I haven't seen any laptops with even 10 USB ports, let alone 16. So why is there so many USB controllers?

 

[Abwx]

To calculate real power efficiency, we not only need to plot the power usage curve, we also need to calculate the area under the curve and then compare ratios. No one in their right mind will waste so much of their time doing that considering the CPU power usage plots pretty much keeps fluctuating making area under the curve a nightmare to calculate. Not worth our time.

Not worth your time because you are not a professional reviewer like Computerbase crew, it s their work to measure and compute the results, and they measured the influence of the turbo.

Other indirect but easier way of calculating power usage of 2 CPUs is to first ensure they have the SAME performance or at least very similar. Then running power usage tests on both CPUs designed to highlight their design goals or real world usage scenarios. Not CB.

Throwing PL1 and PL2 numbers and saying one is more power efficient than the other is just plain wrong.

No need to throw PL1/PL2 since they did actual measurement of the CPU power over a 300s time in single and multicore with curves displayed, what else do we need..?.

Intel Meteor Lake anhand des Core Ultra 7 155H im Test

Das Acer Swift Go 14 ermöglicht einen Ersteindruck zu Meteor Lake, der dieselbe Single-, mehr Multi-Core- und viel mehr GPU-Leistung bietet.

www.computerbase.de

 

[tamz_msc]

No need to throw PL1/PL2 since they did actual measurement of the CPU power over a 300s time in single and multicore with curves displayed, what else do we need..?.

How do you know whether HWinfo is running on the LP E-cores or not? Monitoring software will take away certain CPU cycles, no matter if its on AMD or Intel - it was in fact a huge problem early on with Zen 2 and the boost fiasco.

And package power is simply misleading. There are four tiles on the package, each fabbed on different nodes. Why is package power the proxy for CPU compute tile power consumption?

 

[SiliconFly]

Not worth your time because you are not a professional reviewer like Computerbase crew, it s their work to measure and compute the results, and they measured the influence of the turbo.




No need to throw PL1/PL2 since they did actual measurement of the CPU power over a 300s time in single and multicore with curves displayed, what else do we need..?.

Intel Meteor Lake anhand des Core Ultra 7 155H im Test

Das Acer Swift Go 14 ermöglicht einen Ersteindruck zu Meteor Lake, der dieselbe Single-, mehr Multi-Core- und viel mehr GPU-Leistung bietet.

www.computerbase.de

Just went thru your link in spite of better judgement. The results are pure bs. The article itself clearly states "larger differences are created with multi-core load" while comparing two MTL laptops!

Test like these are a joke. And like I said a thousand times, MTL does not fare well in power usage stress tests. We will always get wrong results literally. It does not reflect MTL real world usage scenarios and is not designed for that.

 

[Thibsie]

Why? What's with this mentality of "Hey, we are good and even great in some cases but we don't want total market domination. People can buy Intel if they are desperate"?

Because if you play your cards right away, the other guy can play dirty tricks and nasty surprises.
Seems sales 101 to me really.

 

[SiliconFly]

How do you know whether HWinfo is running on the LP E-cores or not? Monitoring software will take away certain CPU cycles, no matter if its on AMD or Intel - it was in fact a huge problem early on with Zen 2 and the boost fiasco.

And package power is simply misleading. There are four tiles on the package, each fabbed on different nodes. Why is package power the proxy for CPU compute tile power consumption?

Kindly ignore that computer base article. They are clueless on about how to test MTL power efficiency. They're using CB to plot MTL power usage.

Well, they're using fancy colored graphs to impress unsuspecting readers. It's a trap.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Kindly ignore that computer base article. They are clueless on about how to test MTL power efficiency. They're using CB to plot MTL power usage.

Well, they're using fancy colored graphs to impress unsuspecting readers. It's a trap.

Then please write to CB and tell them how amateurish they are, but because you are so kind, you will explain to them how MTL should be tested and in what test.

 

[SiliconFly]

Then please write to CB and tell them how amateurish they are, but because you are so kind, you will explain to them how MTL should be tested and in what test.

I'm on it...

 

[SiliconFly]

View attachment 90534

That's support for a whopping 16 USB ports.

Why though? I haven't seen any laptops with even 10 USB ports, let alone 16. So why is there so many USB controllers?

Lots of devices inside the laptop tend to use USB links. Like Bluetooth, Trackpad, Fingerprint, Camera and probable many more like ME, OEM specific features like programmable custom RGB backlit keyboards and probably more.

 

[Abwx]

Kindly ignore that computer base article. They are clueless on about how to test MTL power efficiency. They're using CB to plot MTL power usage.

Well, they're using fancy colored graphs to impress unsuspecting readers. It's a trap.

If you think that they rely solely on HV Info then you never saw some pics of their lab.

They have an automated benching with everything measured including of course power at the main and between AC adaptator and laptop on the 18V supply, they know if HV infos are accurate or no, they have the gear to check the thing, just the Rodhe and Schwarz as well as Agilent analyzers they once displayed would buy you an apartment and a car as a bonus...

 

[cebri1]

View attachment 90534

That's support for a whopping 16 USB ports.

Why though? I haven't seen any laptops with even 10 USB ports, let alone 16. So why is there so many USB controllers?

That's probably the number for all type of ports supported. They usually divided them by type:



Meaning that probably if you have 5 USB 3.2 2x2 you are already saturating the BW available.

 

[FlameTail]

Intel's slapped a 16GB dual-channel minimum entry requirement on Core Ultra laptops if you want top gaming performance

Intel's slapped a 16GB dual-channel minimum entry requirement on Core Ultra laptops if you want top gaming performance

To get an 'Arc Graphics' sticker, your Core Ultra laptop has to be dual-channel with 16GB of memory.

www.pcgamer.com

Intel slapped a

 

[Meteor Late]

One can disable PL2 and enforce only PL1, I had a 5600H and you could do a similar thing with UXTU, of course AMD uses a different name for this but still, there is no excuse for these reviewers if they want to compare efficiency properly.

 

[SiliconFly]

Looks like I don't have a choice.

I'm going to Germany, learn German, goto Computerbase in Berlin, meet MD Frank Hüber and tell him he's wrong!

That should go well I think. 🧐

Tbh, I think they should consider testing MTL's LP E cores as well.

 

[trivik12]

Thank god. We need 8GB memory to die in 2023. Memory is not that expensive. BTW are there any laptops with LPDDR5x7466. That is the fastest supported memory right?

On Early issues even Apple iphone has had early issues which was fixed with further software updates. I think Intel was fixated on getting it out before end of the year. Probably needed more QA time for packaging team. its something unprecedented(there was Lakefield but even that was not this complex). I hope Ian Cutress or Anandtech does a deep dive with different laptops sometime in the future.