Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



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Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

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As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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cebri1

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Another review, won't be liked here because he liked the laptop lmao.

I've noticed a significant difference in max voltage when he showed temperatures while running CB (HWmonitor tho). Can't wait to get my hands on one and do some testing.
 

TESKATLIPOKA

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So overall, MTL is definitely more efficient than previous gen. Better graphics. Not much performance improvement. Amazing new architecture. And stands up to competition. Thats it.
Amazing architecture? Where?
7840U is still 25% faster while consuming 2W more.
cinebench2-zenbook14-interarc.png
This is supposedly standing up to competition? I don't think so, unless you didn't mean performance.
 
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adroc_thurston

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I have asked on MANY occasions not to talk about Zen5 in Meteor Lake Thread. You seem to not take my warnings seriously, so enjoy your infraction.
This is supposedly standing up to competition? I don't think so, unless you didn't mean performance.
Yeah it's kinda very not funny with Zen5 coming.
 

Hulk

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Looks like RWC is just a minor tweak of GLC. "New core architecture" my butt, and this is coming straight off Intel's accusations of snake oil...

View attachment 90478

Good find! I think I may be correct when I wrote that Intel wanted to downplay any improvements in RWC as that would highlight the latency penalty in moving to tiles. Increasing L1 to offset the tile penalty makes sense. There would have been an IPC (throughput) uplift if Intel had remained monolithic. But that ship has sailed. The future is tiles.

I have been following this release closely, trying not to make knee jerk judgements as it generally takes a while to fully understand the short and long term implications of a new architecture and this one more so than normal because there are so many monumental changes and we haven't really had a lot of "trusted" reviews.

First, we have Intel 4 finally going "live" in silicon. That's great. But how great is it? Intel claims a significant transistor density uplift but since we don't know the number of transistors and die size we can't verify that. In addition, we don't have good numbers on density for a few generations now. So there's one question.

Another is the frequency Intel 4 can hit with this first release of the node. 5GHz for the current top of the stack part is pretty good. But the fact that a 5.1GHz part is coming next year suggests at least for mobile they are currently topped out at 5GHz and are binning like mad for 5.1GHz parts. Raptor mobile parts are in the same range of clocks as Meteor Lake so clocks don't seem like the issue (at least for mobile). This does seem like a good indicator for future Intel 4 releases that the will be able to probably be able to hit somewhere between Alder and Raptor (1st gen) frequency for ARL.

Speaking of ARL, since they have given up some throughput moving to tiles and already made a tick with RWC Intel is going to have to make up a bit more throughput for the tiles to equal RPC IPC, then make up another few percent for the clock speed regression from Intel 4 to Intel 7 at it's latest incarnation, and this is just to equal Raptor Cove performance much less improve on it. Lion Cove has a lot on it's shoulders.

As far as power consumption, initial testing shows it's better than Raptor. Much better at higher mobile Watts (like 40 or 50) but not so much better where it really matters for mobile in the 15 to 30 watt range. But as I wrote above it's early and we need more testing. Better than the last Intel offering and perhaps equal to AMD. That can be argued as a win or a loss. Like the hybrid approach it looks like there are use cases to work out. Seems like the GPU and CPU tiles need to stay sleeping during web browsing, watching video, and general light office work otherwise it seems as though firing up those other tiles incurs a big electrical penalty. We have seen 21 hour battery life when only the SoC is active, but how realistic is that. As is usually the case AMD and Intel are very competitive in the mobile space and Intel has the advantage of being available in a lot more systems.

The GPU performance again catches up to AMD. I think this is a win for Intel. No, it's not groundbreaking but it's significant and since many applications are using the GPU, such as the video my ARC 750 is encoding on Magix Vegas Pro right now, this is important.

I think we can safely say that with Meteor Lake Intel caught up to AMD in the mobile space. They got a lot right here. Intel 4 is out the door and hitting 5GHz. That's big. The tiled architecture is working. That's huge.

But is this the end of the beginning of Intel's resurgence or it is the beginning of the end for them? Meaning are they going to forever be playing catch up and slowly but surely losing market share or is their new tiled approach going to have "legs?"

One positive is that since they are in the discrete GPU arena they can trickle down that tech into the iGPU's with great economic and intellectual efficiency since both platforms share hardware and software, there should not be too much duplication of effort.

As I wrote above a lot is riding on Lion Cove. It's going to need to show 20% uplift in IPC to show perhaps 10% uplift over Raptor Refresh when you consider the tiled latency and clock regression. The problem when you run a node to extreme clocks at the expense of power is you set a high bar for the next release. Not only is Intel having to deal with the clocks of Raptor but the inherently lower latency of its monolithic design as compared to future products.

It's fascinating to stand back and watch this play out. I am personally awed by what both AMD and Intel have accomplished over the past 4 or 5 years in particular. Intel with their hybrid approach and insane clocks and AMD being able to produce parts with such enormous compute and efficiency. It's easy to sit here and armchair quarterback this and that and another thing entirely to design, fabricate, test, and build these things into working microprocessors!
 
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cebri1

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Amazing architecture? Where?
7840U is still 25% faster while consuming 2W more.
This is supposedly standing up to competition? I don't think so, unless you didn't mean performance.

I think we need to move away from single data points. One benchmark does not tell the whole story.


I think MTL does provide a nice bump in MT performance. Seen on various sites, and perf/watt improvements over RPL. Ofc it's below expectations but looks like a step in the right way.
 

mikk

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Golden pig Upgrade posted a Cinebench power/efficiency curve with a new firmware. Depending on the firmware this might explain the differences between some tests. In another posting he says the latest Arc test driver improves low power gaming performance for the Arc tGPU, the driver is expected in 1 month.
 

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SiliconFly

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Besides, Intel 4 was supposed to bring 20% PPW uplift over Intel 7, reality is <10%, and it's not like we are talking about the higher part of the curve, Intel showed a curve about Intel 4 where 20% efficiency uplift was achieved around 2-3GHz, Meteor Lake is operating at those frequencies in MT workloads. Why would we believe Intel's numbers about future nodes?
https://forums.anandtech.com/attachments/img_2043-png.90403/


This slide above shows a PPW jump of more than 80% (photoshop heavy load) from RPC (on Intel 7) to RWC (on Intel 4). So, I think it's safe to say Intel 4 has actually delivered on its promise of 20% PPW gain. Not 10% like you mentioned. So again I think it's safe to say that the people who said that MTL's issue is with RWC and not Intel 4 were actually accurate.

So, it's not the node, it's RWC thats crap. :grimacing:
 

cebri1

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Golden pig Upgrade posted a Cinebench power/efficiency curve with a new firmware. Depending on the firmware this might explain the differences between some tests. In another posting he says the latest Arc test driver improves low power gaming performance for the Arc tGPU, the driver is expected in 1 month.

Did they posted the numbers? That looks it went from 6000 to 7000 at 15W.
 

Geddagod

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...Starting from Intel 4 to Intel 20A, it's all HD cells for client. so, the gains are more straight forward...
Where's this from? I hope LNC is much more efficient and uses HD cells, but I have no hope.
Honestly with RWC+ on GNR they have the opportunity for even more fin depopulation, which would make more sense in server...
But I'm also not going to pretend ik better than Intel if fin depopulation down to HD cells is the best method for them to gain perf/watt at low power (though I heavily suspect it is).
Yes they do.
If they did, they would be claiming they have node leadership in 2024, not with Intel 18A in 2025. And why they are using 20A with N3, not Intel 3. I used to think Intel 3 would be comparable to N3 as well, but at this point I think too much evidence stands in the way.
more efficient Raptor Lake.
Problem is many reviewers didn't find it to have any perf/watt gains over RPL.
So, from Intel 4 to Intel 20A, its a total of 15% ppw gain over 18%. 100% -> (18%) -> 118% -> (15%) -> 136%. Thats around 36% gain total.

And this 36% is just the node gains alone, not including any power efficiency gains from LNC's new architecture. In effect, 50% ppw gains for ARL's 20A CPU tile is something we can easily expect. Probably more if LNC has a more efficient design that what we suspect.
You can't multiply it outright like that cuz we don't know where on the curve Intel is getting PPW gains for each node
ntel 4 is a dumpster fire
Idk why everyone blaming the node team when there's a bunch of historical precedent that the arch team sucks...
Besides, Intel 4 was supposed to bring 20% PPW uplift over Intel 7, reality is <10%, and it's not like we are talking about the higher part of the curve, Intel showed a curve about Intel 4 where 20% efficiency uplift was achieved around 2-3GHz, Meteor Lake is operating at those frequencies in MT workloads. Why would we believe Intel's numbers about future nodes?
TSMC claimed a 15% improvement from N7 to N5, yet AMD only got 13%. Why would TSMC lie abt their numbers for future nodes?
Intel 4 did achieve a 20% perf/watt improvement on an ARM core. Depending on how well you design a core, or what core you use, or how sunny the sky is and a bunch of other factors, it will change how much perf/watt you can extract from a core.
And no, 18A is not comparable to TSMC's N2. In fact, N2 might be used by Intel for upcoming Nova Lake cause Intel still has not updated the process node that's comparable to N2....
TSMC themselves thinks that it's a N3P competitor.
Let me stop your unrealistic dream. Ian has recently interviewed Ann Keheller about 18A, here is what she claimed about 18A compared to Intel 4:-
Expecting a ~50% perf/watt jump from LNL shouldn't be too unrealistic. A 25% jump from Intel 4 to TSMC N3 is like a node + subnode jump, and a 20% jump from arch efficiency (like Zen 3 was) should be expected from a new arch. Whether Intel executes and hits it or not is a different matter.
 

TESKATLIPOKA

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I think we need to move away from single data points. One benchmark does not tell the whole story.


I think MTL does provide a nice bump in MT performance. Seen on various sites, and perf/watt improvements over RPL. Ofc it's below expectations but looks like a step in the right way.
And Geekbench does? You don't even know the actual power consumption of those laptops.
What I posted, tells you exactly how It performs at a given power limit.
You can only criticize that It shows only rendering, but I can't help It If they didn't make any other graphs like that.
 

Geddagod

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And Geekbench does? You don't even know the actual power consumption of those laptops.
What I posted, tells you exactly how It performs at a given power limit.
Perf/watt testing has been all over the place with MTL. Golden Pig suggests 0% esentially on the entire curve. Jarods Tech was what, 15%, at 28 watts. Just Josh suggests ~16%.
 

Geddagod

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I think we can safely say that with Meteor Lake Intel caught up to AMD in the mobile space. They got a lot right here. Intel 4 is out the door and hitting 5GHz. That's big. The tiled architecture is working. That's huge.
They are 20-30% behind AMD in the sub 30 watt range.
Funnily enough that's also how much power each core would get in a server environment as well.
 
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SiliconFly

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LNC is just more bloat.
What are you on?
LNC architecture is still under wraps. No one knows what LNC is going to be except for some leaks saying that there isn't going to be hyper-threading. And an unverified leak which says performance will be similar to previous gen. Other than that, nothing significant has been leaked about LNC's new architecture.
 

cebri1

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Perf/watt testing has been all over the place with MTL. Golden Pig suggests 0% esentially on the entire curve. Jarods Tech was what, 15%, at 28 watts. Just Josh suggests ~16%.

Starting to bet on MTL hardware being ready for October launch and software/firmware delayed it. You can literally cherry pick results to anyone's liking.
 

H433x0n

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Golden pig Upgrade posted a Cinebench power/efficiency curve with a new firmware. Depending on the firmware this might explain the differences between some tests. In another posting he says the latest Arc test driver improves low power gaming performance for the Arc tGPU, the driver is expected in 1 month.
You’ve got to be (expletive) me. I almost hope that’s not really the case. If that’s a legit power curve graph then I’d say it basically met expectations and it’s be totally irrelevant since they’ve already got roasted by poor day 1 performance.
 

cebri1

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You’ve got to be (expletive) me. I almost hope that’s not really the case. If that’s a legit power curve graph then I’d say it basically met expectations and it’s be totally irrelevant since they’ve already got roasted by poor day 1 performance.

Intel could be lucky as CES is in January and a lot of new laptops are going to be launched, meaning a lot of hardware is going to be reviewed. Also, there aren't that many reviews out there yet and fewer are negative on the products as is.
 

SiliconFly

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Amazing architecture? Where?
Nope. I didn't mean performance or efficiency when I said amazing architecture.

When I said that, I was actually talking about MTL's tiled architecture with tCPU, tGPU, SoC tile, IO tile, LP E Cores, NoC Fabric Interconnect... and all these vertically 3D stacked together with Foveros.

Believe it or not, MTL is an amazing architecture.
 
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Geddagod

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LNC architecture is still under wraps. No one knows what LNC is going to be except for some leaks saying that there isn't going to be hyper-threading. And an unverified leak which says performance will be similar to previous gen. Other than that, nothing significant has been leaked about LNC's new architecture.
Two separate documents show ARL having a 5% ST gain. One of the documents was straight up just shown with a bunch of scribbles to block other info. At this point, ARL's ST gains being low should easily be believable.
Also Intel is shipping out ARL ES samples. I expect more leaks to come out soon.
 
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Doug S

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Wake me up when Intel catches upto Apple in efficiency

Why would they even try? Apple designs its core to target phones, so they have greater constraints on power draw than Intel and AMD have with any of their products. By using the same cores in Macs, they inherent that greater efficiency. Since Apple has always wanted better efficiency than Intel was ever willing to deliver, this worked out well for the products they want to make.

Efficiency has never been Intel's primary goal, performance always has been.