Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[eek2121]

Meteor Lake leaks when? 🤣

Seriously, Meteor Lake is the first Intel CPU/architecture that has my interest in a long time, primarily since Intel will be on a competitive node for the first time in a long time.

I hope Intel does the responsible thing and “accidentally” leaks all the info ASAP.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Seriously, Meteor Lake is the first Intel CPU/architecture that has my interest in a long time, primarily since Intel will be on a competitive node for the first time in a long time.

But at the same time, that is also their first attempt at chiplets? I don't feel too optimistic about that turning out well for them.

He has more reasons: Why I'm worried about Intel Meteor Lake | Digital Trends

 

[DrMrLordX]

Seriously, Meteor Lake is the first Intel CPU/architecture that has my interest in a long time, primarily since Intel will be on a competitive node for the first time in a long time.

It would have been a competitive node in 2022. 2023? Not so much.

 

[dullard]

Seriously, Meteor Lake is the first Intel CPU/architecture that has my interest in a long time, primarily since Intel will be on a competitive node for the first time in a long time.

Meteor Lake: the node will not be the exiting part. Sure, it will have a lot of new things that may or may not be relevant to you. But, Arrow Lake should follow very quickly and THAT will have a competitive node and is what peaks my interest.

 

[trivik12]

Meteor Lake is still a huge deal. first disaggregated Intel CPU with parts from multiple processes(Intel and TSMC). Plus TSMC N3 does not look like being used by any client CPUs. N3e wont be available until late next year or 2024. So Intel is competing with N4/5P rather than N3. So its not as bad as competing N5p against Intel 7 where there is a huge gulf.

 

[poke01]

It would have been a competitive node in 2022. 2023?

Who else will be using N3 family in 2023 apart from Apple? The rest of the industry is still stuck on N5 family. Intel 4 will be fine in 2023.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Who else will be using N3 family in 2023 apart from Apple? The rest of the industry is still stuck on N5 family. Intel 4 will be fine in 2023.

Samsung
Mediatek
etc.

(okay Samsung may be using 3GAP and some N3, depending on how they handle their next-gen of Snapdragon mobile, but we'll see. Mediatek is almost guaranteed to continue to push the envelope with their Dimensity line)

 

[poke01]

Samsung
Mediatek
etc.

(okay Samsung may be using 3GAP and some N3, depending on how they handle their next-gen of Snapdragon mobile, but we'll see. Mediatek is almost guaranteed to continue to push the envelope with their Dimensity line)

I have no faith in new Samsung nodes unless a major player uses them. (idc if its Samsung themselves, Intel, AMD, Nvidia or Apple uses them to prove their worth in perf and efficiency).

Mediatek will indeed use N3 but they irrlevent apart from a few chinese phones that use them in SE and Asian markets.

 

[Exist50]

Mediatek will indeed use N3 but they irrlevent apart from a few chinese phones that use them in SE and Asian markets.

Mediatek is huge. They ship a ton of volume. Though they are somewhat more heavily weighted towards the budget market than e.g. Qualcomm.

 

[poke01]

Mediatek is huge. They ship a ton of volume. Though they are somewhat more heavily weighted towards the budget market than e.g. Qualcomm.

yep they do volume but they are not a threat to Intel in mindshare like Apple and to a certain extent Qualcomm(If Nuvia ships in 2023).

 

[Exist50]

yep they do volume but they are not a threat to Intel in mindshare like Apple and to a certain extent Qualcomm(If Nuvia ships in 2023).

Perhaps not, but that's unrelated to the state of N3.

 

[Doug S]

Mediatek is huge. They ship a ton of volume. Though they are somewhat more heavily weighted towards the budget market than e.g. Qualcomm.

Those budget phones won't be using N3, only their small segment going into high end phones would. So they will use it, but it isn't like they'll be doing 10K wpm.

Why did no one mention Qualcomm? They would seem to be the obvious target for who (other than Apple) that would be using N3/N3E in volume in 2023, in products sold in the US/EU.

 

[moinmoin]

Why did no one mention Qualcomm? They would seem to be the obvious target for who (other than Apple) that would be using N3/N3E in volume in 2023, in products sold in the US/EU.

Probably because they showed they are not above their own greed of jumping to cheaper lesser nodes at Samsung to save money only to come back later to the leading node at TSMC after significant pre-payments. That process voided Qualcomm's role as a preferred customer at TSMC and it's doubtful Qualcomm would suddenly significantly invest in bleeding edge nodes for this to change.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Probably because they showed they are not above their own greed of jumping to cheaper lesser nodes at Samsung to save money only to come back later to the leading node at TSMC after significant pre-payments. That process voided Qualcomm's role as a preferred customer at TSMC and it's doubtful Qualcomm would suddenly significantly invest in bleeding edge nodes for this to change.

More to the point, Mediatek went straight for N4 with Dimensity while Qualcomm opted to play footsie with Samsung nodes again for Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 (Gen1+ uses N4).

 

[Exist50]

Probably because they showed they are not above their own greed of jumping to cheaper lesser nodes at Samsung to save money only to come back later to the leading node at TSMC after significant pre-payments. That process voided Qualcomm's role as a preferred customer at TSMC and it's doubtful Qualcomm would suddenly significantly invest in bleeding edge nodes for this to change.

Well Qualcomm's supposed to be staying at TSMC for their next flagship, so it really wouldn't be surprising if they're one of the first to N3 around early '24.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Well Qualcomm's supposed to be staying at TSMC for their next flagship, so it really wouldn't be surprising if they're one of the first to N3 around early '24.

Maybe they learned their lesson? Or maybe TSMC is cutting them a deal behind closed doors despite public reports of increased prices for wafers. In any case Qualcomm has some egg on their face over the whole Dimensity 9000/9000+ affair. Take a look at what's happening with the Asus ROG Phone 6: Asus is releasing a "faster" version of the ROG Phone 6 (called: "6D") using the Dimensity 9000+ despite the base ROG Phone 6 using the Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1. Ouch. Message sent, message received.

 

[hemedans]

Maybe they learned their lesson? Or maybe TSMC is cutting them a deal behind closed doors despite public reports of increased prices for wafers. In any case Qualcomm has some egg on their face over the whole Dimensity 9000/9000+ affair. Take a look at what's happening with the Asus ROG Phone 6: Asus is releasing a "faster" version of the ROG Phone 6 (called: "6D") using the Dimensity 9000+ despite the base ROG Phone 6 using the Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1. Ouch. Message sent, message received.

There is faster Rog phone 6 "pro" with sd 8+ gen 1 and normal Rog phone 6.

Unless Mediatek shift to Nvidia Gpu they wont be able to challenge Adreno with Mali Gpu. In Mali Open Gl drivers are broken and Vulkan is not as good as Adreno one.

 

[DrMrLordX]

There is faster Rog phone 6 "pro" with sd 8+ gen 1 and normal Rog phone 6.

There's also the "6D" which is the fastest of them all:

Asus ROG Phone 6D Ultimate rules AnTuTu performance chart for September

Last month's champion ROG Phone 6 Pro is not among the top-ten best-performing phones. The September rankings of the best-performing phones on AnTuTu are...

www.gsmarena.com

Though I will concede (as does the article) that the Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 is faster in graphics. So it's a polarizing choice. But Asus did what they did for a reason. Dimensity 9000+ is the last chip they're going to use in the 6-series of Asus ROG Phones, much like the last Rog Phone 5 used the Snapdragon 888+. Asus had to wait to release ROG Phone 6 until Qualcomm switched to TSMC N4 for the 8+ Gen 1 SoC. It's likely that they never liked the 888 or 888+.

 

[Exist50]

Maybe best to move that Mediatek discussion to another thread...

 

[Abwx]

Maybe best to move that Mediatek discussion to another thread...

Before that s done i d like to point to the understimaters that Mediatek hold 30% of the phones SoCs market, nevermind their actual perfs competivity...

 

[igor_kavinski]

So when are folks here expecting Intel to start tooting their Meteor Lake horn? Starting July-2023?

 

[Exist50]

So when are folks here expecting Intel to start tooting their Meteor Lake horn? Starting July-2023?

I'm thinking a little later. They've been cagey on when in '23 it's coming, which usually translated to H2. So maybe Q3 at best, Q4 at worst.

 

[Geddagod]

It would have been a competitive node in 2022. 2023? Not so much.

Intel 4 is estimated to have HP cell density closer to TSMC 3nm than TSMC 5/4nm (wikichip). Obviously there are other indicators of how good a node is as well, but I highly doubt Intel 4 would be marginally worse than TSMC 5/4nm at any rate. Even if you look at perf, at the very least Intel 4 would be basically on par with TSMC 5/4 (if you consider TSMC 7nm ~ Intel 7) while an optimistic take would put Intel 4 perf at above even tsmc 3nm (if you consider TSMC 7nm ~ Intel 10nm SF). For power, Intel 4 once again takes the lead over TSMC 5nm, though if I remember correctly it might be behind TSMC 4nm.
All considered, I would say Intel 4 is as good as TSMC 5/4nm. And that should be good enough for 2023- their main competitor, AMD, isn't shifting to 3nm until 2024, for zen 5. And even then, we also know zen 5 is using TSMC 4nm in some cases, so....

 

[Geddagod]

Meteor Lake leaks when? 🤣

Seriously, Meteor Lake is the first Intel CPU/architecture that has my interest in a long time, primarily since Intel will be on a competitive node for the first time in a long time.

I hope Intel does the responsible thing and “accidentally” leaks all the info ASAP.

Me personally, I'm more interested for Arrow Lake. Potential revamped architecture, built from the ground up like zen? Exciting stuff. And Intel might have a competitive node with Meteor Lake, but with AMD on 3nm in 2024 with zen 5 and Intel on 20A with Arrow Lake, Intel might end up having a node lead... Zen 5, new node and ground up arch vs Arrow Lake, new node and ground up arch, sounds to be one of the most exciting CPU battles in a while.

 

[igor_kavinski]

When next do we find out more about Intel 4 progress? Before end of year?