Intel Iris & Iris Pro Graphics: Haswell GT3/GT3e Gets a Brand

[NTMBK]

I feel exactly the same way about Kaveri.

Because we've seen so many 3DMark scores thrown around for Kaveri?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Because we've seen so many 3DMark scores thrown around for Kaveri?

Perhaps not specific scores, but there has been a lot of very optimistic, shall we say, claims that it will meet mid range dgpu performance.

 

[lagokc]

Perhaps not specific scores, but there has been a lot of very optimistic, shall we say, claims that it will meet mid range dgpu performance.

Only if you consider a 7750 midrange...

 

[mrmt]

Perhaps not specific scores, but there has been a lot of very optimistic, shall we say, claims that it will meet mid range dgpu performance.

Do you still believe AMD marketing?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Do you still believe AMD marketing?

I didnt make the claims, they were made by another poster in a forum recently.

Basically, Intel or AMD, seems like every new generation, claims are make for the next igp that never quite pan out.

At best, I think igps can only reach the level of low end discrete cards, because as igps improve, so do discrete cards, hopefully anyway.

By low end I mean something like HD7750, not some super low end nvidia card or a low end past gen AMD card.

 

[lagokc]

I didnt make the claims, they were made by another poster in a forum recently.

Basically, Intel or AMD, seems like every new generation, claims are make for the next igp that never quite pan out.

At best, I think igps can only reach the level of low end discrete cards, because as igps improve, so do discrete cards, hopefully anyway.

By low end I mean something like HD7750, not some super low end nvidia card or a low end past gen AMD card.

It's almost a self-sealing argument. Integrated graphics will never reach the performance of low end discreet cards of the same generation because any discreet card as slow as the integrated graphics of the time won't make it to retail because it won't be able to compete against integrated graphics on price.

So as integrated graphics get faster, the entry level discreet card gets bumped up a notch. Now that the A10's 6620g's performance is around 7600 series performance level the slowest card in retail is the 7750. There IS a 7600 series Radeon but it's only for mobile and OEMs.

If Kaveri matches a 7750 in performance then the slowest retail 8000 series Radeon will likely be a decent jump up in performance because a discreet card as slow as an integrated GPU would be unlikely to sell well in retail.

Perhaps a better benchmark for integrated graphics is "can one finally run games comfortably at the settings I intend to use?"

 

[blackened23]

Integrated graphics will never reach the performance of low end discreet cards

Famous last words? What is a "discreet" card, anyway?

 

[frozentundra123456]

It's almost a self-sealing argument. Integrated graphics will never reach the performance of low end discreet cards of the same generation because any discreet card as slow as the integrated graphics of the time won't make it to retail because it won't be able to compete against integrated graphics on price.

So as integrated graphics get faster, the entry level discreet card gets bumped up a notch. Now that the A10's 6620g's performance is around 7600 series performance level the slowest card in retail is the 7750. There IS a 7600 series Radeon but it's only for mobile and OEMs.

If Kaveri matches a 7750 in performance then the slowest retail 8000 series Radeon will likely be a decent jump up in performance because a discreet card as slow as an integrated GPU would be unlikely to sell well in retail.

Perhaps a better benchmark for integrated graphics is "can one finally run games comfortably at the settings I intend to use?"

Good points, however, on the desktop, I still would prefer to get a low/midrange discrete card simply because the performance is so much better for a small additional price, especially considering the cost of gaming in general. In addition, the requirements to run current AAA titles also keep going up. If you are content to run older or less graphically intense games, igps are getting close to good enough.

Mobile is another story, where igps are more attractive for light gaming since it is difficult if not impossible to add a discrete card.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Famous last words? What is a "discreet" card, anyway?

From Wikipedia: "something that is separate; distinct; individual"


Not sure if you were joking or what your point was, but there is the definition. Obviously in the context we are using it refers to a PCIe card.

 

[NTMBK]

I didnt make the claims, they were made by another poster in a forum recently.

What, Galego? Well we all know he's nuts anyway.

Basically, Intel or AMD, seems like every new generation, claims are make for the next igp that never quite pan out.

At best, I think igps can only reach the level of low end discrete cards, because as igps improve, so do discrete cards, hopefully anyway.

By low end I mean something like HD7750, not some super low end nvidia card or a low end past gen AMD card.

In theory, integrated graphics should have higher theoretical performance than discrete graphics. PCIe is a big, nasty bottleneck. This is all theoretical right now- developers write engines that work well on today's gaming rigs, which means a discrete CPU and GPU with a PCIe connection. But if you compared a CPU + GPU vs. an APU with the same total die size and the same total memory bandwidth, the APU would have the higher theoretical total performance. But this advantage could only be extracted by developers using algorithms which work well on that type of design but not on discrete GPUs, which isn't going to happen unless for some reason almost everyone had moved to gaming on APUs. (Or ports of algorithms for PS4/XBox Whatever.)

[Note: By APU I am not referring to AMD exclusively.]

Realistically speaking of course the APU runs into total die size issues- a die big enough to fit a seriously powerful GPU and a quad core is going to be pretty massive. Not to mention bandwidth, although Intel and AMD both seem to have their approach to attack that.

If anything a move to desktop APU gaming systems would probably be pushed by Intel. They would prefer for you to buy a GT4 Broadwell instead of a GT1 Broadwell and a GTX 860, and they have the process advantage to make the die size economics work for them. They're already doing this in laptops with Haswell- if GT3e really does perform as well as a 650m, then mobile discrete GPUs are suddenly banished to only the super-high end crazy Alienware/MSI laptops. Squeezing out AMD and NVidia and stealing their profit margins would be a very smart move for them, and certainly doable.

 

[mrmt]

At best, I think igps can only reach the level of low end discrete cards, because as igps improve, so do discrete cards, hopefully anyway.

If you look at unit shipments, the GPU market is shrinking and the reason is that the iGPU is improving each generation. There's no room for a product like Nvidia GT 210 or GT 220, and AMD pretty much wrote off everything below the x600 series. The reason for that is the iGPU.

With more and more die size being devoted to CPU and integrated memory on the SoC tacking the bandwidth issue, it's a matter of time until the dGPU market becomes very small.

 

[Sweepr]

I can't wait to see Haswell's performance in actual games and not the 3dmark BS numbers that get thrown around .

Does the fact that Intel may have beaten AMD at their own game in 3 generations bothers you that much?

 

[blackened23]

From Wikipedia: "something that is separate; distinct; individual"


Not sure if you were joking or what your point was, but there is the definition. Obviously in the context we are using it refers to a PCIe card.

It was a play on the fact that he didn't spell it properly. Your definition isn't correct, unless you're looking up the definition for "discrete", the proper spelling.

Anyway, back on topic: will iGPU reach low-mid discrete? Besides the fact that Iris Pro is likely already there in some respects - even if you don't agree, it will happen eventually. Discrete and desktop is dwindling in sales, while integrated graphics increase in performance by 100-200% margins on a yearly basis. The exponential increases are fairly unbelievable, really. Besides which, efficiency and integration are the new milestones for any silicon company on the earth - consumerism dictates where intel invests their time and R+D, therefore a hulking desktop PC that is 3 feet high isn't it. Not anymore. I certainly believe intel will reach pretty incredible performance with their iGPUs, they're increasing exponentially by 200% on a yearly basis as is.

I'm a desktop guy like you are, but I can also see the trends in computing. Those trends dictate where silicon companies invest their R+D cash. If intel throws enough money at it, it will happen.

 

[Haserath]

Intel's rate of increase is impressive, but not sustainable. They improved the performance of the GT3e massively over GT2, but only by increasing the die size massively and adding in expensive eDRAM and an interposer. Ivy Bridge already used a large part of the die for graphics, and GT3 has ~2.5x this area.

It's a very impressive improvement, but it's more of a short term readjustment as opposed to a long term trend. Intel's graphics performance will probably settle into the same rate of improvement as AMDVidia (60-80% improvement with each node shrink), although their performance will likely be ahead of them due to their process advantages.

I know it's short term. The GPU was only a small part of the overall TDP even with HD 4000, but now it's got to be pretty significant.

I'd say, if they really wanted to, Broadwell could bring the same increase as Haswell(only for desktop), but I'd be very surprised if they chose to. I'm expecting a 50% increase and a 100% increase at the most.

It really depends on where they stop the greater increase.

 

[lagokc]

Good points, however, on the desktop, I still would prefer to get a low/midrange discrete card simply because the performance is so much better for a small additional price, especially considering the cost of gaming in general. In addition, the requirements to run current AAA titles also keep going up. If you are content to run older or less graphically intense games, igps are getting close to good enough.

Mobile is another story, where igps are more attractive for light gaming since it is difficult if not impossible to add a discrete card.

That was pretty much my point.

If Kaveri's iGPU is as fast as the 8750 would be then there won't be an 8750 in retail, the retail cards will start with the 8800 series and you'll be happier with the entry level PCIe card which would now be 8800 class. If this trend continues you'll end up with only the very high end enthusiast cards remaining on the PCIe bus though it will take a few years for memory technology to get to the point where iGPUs can compete.

If that's the case nVidia will be in an uncomfortable position and is smart to be moving their focus toward Tegra and Tesla.

 

[ShintaiDK]

That was pretty much my point.

If Kaveri's iGPU is as fast as the 8750 would be then there won't be an 8750 in retail, the retail cards will start with the 8800 series and you'll be happier with the entry level PCIe card which would now be 8800 class. If this trend continues you'll end up with only the very high end enthusiast cards remaining on the PCIe bus though it will take a few years for memory technology to get to the point where iGPUs can compete.

If that's the case nVidia will be in an uncomfortable position and is smart to be moving their focus toward Tegra and Tesla.

8xxx is mobile/OEM only.

The point is basicly everything below 77xx and 650 is in danger. And thats not a small volume.

Sooner or later the ROI for discrete cards will be too low to continue.

 

[Arkadrel]

Im really curious about AMDs GDDR5 system memory solution.
And the 512sp APU they have planned.

Which should put it somewhere around 7750 level performance.
That ll be a gigantic step in terms of IGP performance.

Even though Im surprised by Intels progress with its GT3e, Im not that wow'ed by it.
Its gonna be faster than a A10-5800k, but it doesnt look like by huge amounts.

Meanwhile this "GDDR5 512sp Kavari" will be something near double the A10-5800k's IGP performance.


*** edit:

eDram cache, GDDR5 system memory are temporary fixes.
Intel & AMD are just waiting out stacked memory cube technologies, once that becomes mainstream, IGPs will make more headway again against discrete cards.

I believe Discrete market will keep shrinking.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Im really curious about AMDs GDDR5 system memory solution.
And the 512sp APU they have planned.

Which should put it somewhere around 7750 level performance.
That ll be a gigantic step in terms of IGP performance.

Even though Im surprised by Intels progress with its GT3e, Im not that wow'ed by it.
Its gonna be faster than a A10-5800k, but it doesnt look like by huge amounts.

Meanwhile this "GDDR5 512sp Kavari" will be something near double the A10-5800k's IGP performance.


*** edit:

eDram cache, GDDR5 system memory are temporary fixes.
Intel & AMD are just waiting out stacked memory cube technologies, once that becomes mainstream, IGPs will make more headway again against discrete cards.

I believe Discrete market will keep shrinking.

A10-5800K = 100W w/ dual core IVB level GPU..

i7 4770R = 65W w/ top notch quaddie Haswell CPU + GPU + eDRAM.

Not even a contest.

 

[MightyMalus]

If Kaveri's iGPU is as fast as the 8750 would be then there won't be an 8750 in retail, the retail cards will start with the 8800 series and you'll be happier with the entry level PCIe card which would now be 8800 class. If this trend continues you'll end up with only the very high end enthusiast cards remaining on the PCIe bus though it will take a few years for memory technology to get to the point where iGPUs can compete. If that's the case nVidia will be in an uncomfortable position and is smart to be moving their focus toward Tegra and Tesla.

The point is basicly everything below 77xx and 650 is in danger.

Why? They can still be used for "dual graphics", no?
Why would the weaker cards die when all have a purpose?
Good enough will always be dependent on the user.

Maybe I just want a slight boost, I'll go for the $100 dGPU. You want double the performance running at x2-x3 resolutions? Go for the more expensive card.

Its the same and will always be the same. The need for performance is there. IMO

A10-5800K = 100W w/ dual core IVB level GPU..

"IVB level GPU"
This is false...If it was true, I would have gone with the Ivy!

 

[mrmt]

Sooner or later the ROI for discrete cards will be too low to continue.

Nvidia thinks that ARM SoC or baseband radios have better ROI potential than extra money on GPU or GPGPU.

 

[lagokc]

A10-5800K = 100W w/ dual core IVB level GPU..

i7 4770R = 65W w/ top notch quaddie Haswell CPU + GPU + eDRAM.

Not even a contest.

Please be a troll, an Ivy Bridge GPU is nowhere near the performance of an A10 GPU. Haswell's GPU is unlikely to be as good as an A10-5700 in games even with eDRAM.

Why? They can still be used for "dual graphics", no?

Dual graphics doesn't give a significant performance boost, certainly not one significant enough to be worth the headaches that come with it.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Please be a troll, an Ivy Bridge GPU is nowhere near the performance of an A10 GPU. Haswell's GPU is unlikely to be as good as an A10-5700 in games even with eDRAM.

It'll fit in a laptop. Can an A10-5800K?

BTW, why is the truth considered "trolling"?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Nvidia thinks that ARM SoC or baseband radios have better ROI potential than extra money on GPU or GPGPU.

Yep, that should be a pretty big hint to everyone where we are going. The absolute number 1 in graphics putting money into a future without graphics being the primer.

 

[lagokc]

It'll fit in a laptop. Can an A10-5800K?

BTW, why is the truth considered "trolling"?

Only an insane fanboy would pretend the Ivy Bridge GPU is in any way comparable to the A10's GPU. Yes, you can buy A10 laptops and yes, they have superior iGPU options compared to what Intel has on offer. You need an nVidia GPU to make Intel machines capable of running games reasonably and Haswell will not change this.

 

[inf64]

Does the fact that Intel may have beaten AMD at their own game in 3 generations bothers you that much?

Tell me when this happens .