Question Intel i7 CPU: Engineering Sample vs. "T" model? Need to match or beat a Ryzen 3600!

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AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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Hello everyone,

Please note this post is rather long and very detailed, so I apologize in advance for making you read a lot :)

I've been putting together this new project inside a NR200 case.
I already have the motherboard, RAM, GPU and fanless PSU.
I also have a couple of spare coolers (but more about that later).

The goal is to build a machine that's as powerful as possible, but also as quiet as it can be.
Ideally, it should match or surpass a similar computer powered by a Ryzen 3600. Not just in gaming, but as an all-rounder (from Photoshop to Handbrake encoding and Topaz AI video processing).

I know it's crazy to also expect quiet operation, but there's a method and a purpose to this madness.

Since we're talking about a mATX Socket 1151 motherboard (yes, some mATX boards will fit in the NR200!), I need a matching CPU.
The board will take 8- and 9-gen Intel processors, but I'm hesitant to go for the i5 series, since these will top at 6 cores with no hyperthreading.
Even if gaming won't be affected, other applications like the ones listed above would greatly benefit from hyperthreading... if you think I'm wrong, please provide solid arguments.

Anyway... I'm looking at eBay and kijiji, since the regular retail prices are a bit rich for my blood (and I'm in Canada, so not that much choice to begin with).

One of the things that first drew my attention was this offer on ebay from a highly respected source, selling what seem to be very cheap (US$135, shipping included) i7 Coffee Lake CPUs. Can't post the actual link, but you can see them for yourselves if you search for "COFFEE LAKE Processor I7-9750H".
The prices are the same for their entire i7 catalogue, but two particular models caught my eye: the 8700B and the 9750H.

Pretty good, right? But there's a catch: these are LAPTOP processors, modified by a specialized third-party for LGA 1151.
They also require BIOS modding - and I'm not talking about loading a file on a USB stick and flashing the board from a command prompt, but real, actual BIOS chip.
The seller does offer BIOS files for various motherboards (including my model), but they also told me via private message "You need to flash the BIOS file to the IC with some kind of programmer."

That sounds more daunting than I expected. So this avenue is closing.

But eBay also has people offering engineering samples, as well as "T" series CPUs.
Both of these categories are cheaper than "regular" chips; both are offered at prices starting from US$180.

Now, engineering samples are just generic, unbranded versions of the retail chip, right? Unless I'm mistaken, general performance and TDP should be roughly equal.
On the other hand, since the "T" series is clocked lower, it should run cooler. In fact, I see the 8700T is rated at 35W.
Suddenly, that opens the door to passive CPU cooling. Something like a Raijintek Ereboss Core Edition (and I have one already) is - at least in theory! - capable of passively cooling chips up to 70W.

Of course, even with a fanless PSU and passive CPU heatsink I can't eliminate the fans completely. There's no sensible way to cool the GPU without a fan, and even a passive CPU heatsink benefits greatly from a quiet case fan that creates a draft inside the enclosure. But that's a really strong point for the "T" chips.

Granted, I've seen cheaper stuff on Aliexpress (search for "QN8H ES"). But I must confess I don't have much trust in this online merchant. At least eBay has several protection mechanisms...

So... what are your thoughts? Would the "T" chip fit the bill? Am I crazy to contemplate passive cooling? Am I wrong to avoid Aliexpress?
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,842
3,295
136
Better a 400$ 5700G or eventually a 5600G than a ES wich is dubbious by the "excellence", i mean that s potentially a lot of bad surprises to be expected since it s not even definitive silicon, and who knows if the seller is not trying to get rid of a dud he was once lured buying...
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
126
5600G at $259 US
https://www.amd.com/en/direct-buy/5530312800/us

That said, I think he is better off with Intel. No idea what to suggest though.

Absolutely. The 5600G is a great processor at ~CA$320. I'll most likely replace my 3600 with something like it.
But on the Intel side, for Socket 1151, things are less clear cut...

I nearly scored an 8700T for CA$180, but the guy is only interested in local delivery, and wouldn't ship :(
 

misuspita

Senior member
Jul 15, 2006
374
390
136
May be a little late but I built my silent computer with a 4650g (the only one I found in stock in February), and a Streacom FC8 alpha fanless case, together with 32 gigs of 3600 ram and a Gigabyte b550i aorus pro ax board . Was hoping for a 5700g but they were clearly not gonna be available when I planed to build my pc.

So now I have a (almost) totally silent pc, the only noise is the one made by my 4 TB HDD inside. All the others are SSD, NVMe, so no noise. It's a fairly powerful machine, at the level of the 3600 you spoke of.

My plan was to upgrade to the 5700g as soon as they became available but now I am not so keen, the performance is really good and will wait for the prices to settle, or something else appears on the horizon in the same socket. If ever. Else, I will buy a 5700g sometime in the future and upgrade a bit my computing power.
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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Alright, so let me get back and provide y'all with an update.

I ended up biting the bullet and ordering an engineering sample CPU.
But instead of the 8700T, I decided to go all the way to i9; the price difference between the i7-8700T and the i9-9900T was minimal, and I got four extra threads in the process. That video I posted earlier in the thread was an eye-opener.

Much to my surprise, it took only two weeks for it to arrive from China.
It is now installed on the mATX Gigabyte B365M DS3H board I already had. And since it's a 35W CPU, I paired it with a Noctua NH-L9i. The whole thing is housed in a CoolerMaster NR200, with a fanless ATX PSU. All the storage is SSD/NVME. There are only two fans in this setup: the CPU and the GPU. And they're both whisper quiet... After playing Doom Eternal for about 80 minutes (in a quiet room, at midnight, using headphones!) the CPU peaked at 50C, and the fans were barely present in the background.

Well worth the investment.

I can't recommend this setup enough. If you can live with the murky legal status of engineering samples (see one of the previous posts, #21) and are comfortable with the idea that you lose bragging rights (all you see in CPU-Z is "Intel 0000"), you can build yourself a machine that's relatively cheap, stealthy and deadly as a ninja...
 
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AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
126
Oh, and the Ryzen 3600 that I started with? It's getting moved to a different case and getting water-cooled.
The original Thermaltake enclosure is definitely good-looking but gets very poor ventilation.

Will post impressions and comparisons once the transfer is done.
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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The 9900T is certainly not a bad CPU, and your build sounds great for your application, but I don't think there is any way it's meeting or exceeding the perf of a Ryzen 3600.

A minimal loss I can live with :)
See the benchmarks in the video I posted in post #22 of this thread.
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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It's all good, I don't need any convincing that the 9900 and its variants are very capable. But your conclusion, while laudable, doesn't really match the thread title. Perhaps that's nit-picking, but this is the CPU subforum after all.


Yes, you ARE nitpicking.:expressionless:
I wanted to match or beat the 3600, and I ended up with a CPU with more cores and threads, which consumes less power and is and pretty much equal in gameplay (within statistical error margins). Did you even bother to look at the video? Check out timestamps 4.26; 4:48; 6:00; 6:41; 7:39.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,519
2,109
146
I've been very careful not to trash what you have done because I think your build is great!
I guess I can't apologize for wanting words to mean specific things, but I am sorry if this has caused you to take insult.
Have fun with your build! :)
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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Understood. No hard feelings, then :)

The noise bothered me enough to try downclocking the 3600, which would have put me at even lower performance levels than this 9900 "bastard child". And the experience of playing my usual games (plus the occasional video encoding job) is absolutely comparable. But the near-silence is blissful.

In the meantime, I moved the 3600 to an AIO upgraded with a Noctua fan. While not having a constant revving up and down, it's still significantly noisier than this Intel build.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,519
2,109
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After re-skimming the thread, perhaps not enough was made of Eco-Mode for the 3600. The problem when improving cooling solutions on Zen3 is that the multiplier may simply be automatically increased to utilize the thermal headroom when PBO is on, and when it's off, my experience has been that the motherboard typically sends way too much voltage to the CPU, I presume to ensure stability of even a bad sample. But with Eco-Mode, you can cap the power consumption in the BIOS such that the AIO should have little trouble keeping it cool at lower fan speeds. Something to explore if you are interested.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
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After re-skimming the thread, perhaps not enough was made of Eco-Mode for the 3600. The problem when improving cooling solutions on Zen3 is that the multiplier may simply be automatically increased to utilize the thermal headroom when PBO is on, and when it's off, my experience has been that the motherboard typically sends way too much voltage to the CPU, I presume to ensure stability of even a bad sample. But with Eco-Mode, you can cap the power consumption in the BIOS such that the AIO should have little trouble keeping it cool at lower fan speeds. Something to explore if you are interested.
It was the first thing that jumped to mind. I mean most of the issue seemed to be case and cooler choice with the 3600. I think the main problem here is the way the OP was originally worded the goal seemed to find a solution that was better than the 3600 at being cooler and allowing for a quieter machine. That seems like a pointless endeavor a new case and or cooler would have accomplished the same goal. But if it was about just building a second machine that needed to be quieter than the 3600 and faster as a goal for a new machine, the 9900t is a good setup for that. Not great, there were other solutions. A 5600x or 5800x in Eco mode would be better imho even at a higher voltage, but we have seen it over and over again, at the same power limit, specially as that limit goes lower Zen2 and especially Zen 3 walk circles around Intel's solutions. Light usage they can get all the clocks on the low core usage and is miles ahead on low power all core performance.

The 9900T is a great plug and play option. Nothing you need to double check. No other settings need to be changed. Its good simple solution. But its not a maximization of the options.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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It was the first thing that jumped to mind. I mean most of the issue seemed to be case and cooler choice with the 3600. I think the main problem here is the way the OP was originally worded the goal seemed to find a solution that was better than the 3600 at being cooler and allowing for a quieter machine. That seems like a pointless endeavor a new case and or cooler would have accomplished the same goal. But if it was about just building a second machine that needed to be quieter than the 3600 and faster as a goal for a new machine, the 9900t is a good setup for that. Not great, there were other solutions. A 5600x or 5800x in Eco mode would be better imho even at a higher voltage, but we have seen it over and over again, at the same power limit, specially as that limit goes lower Zen2 and especially Zen 3 walk circles around Intel's solutions. Light usage they can get all the clocks on the low core usage and is miles ahead on low power all core performance.

The 9900T is a great plug and play option. Nothing you need to double check. No other settings need to be changed. Its good simple solution. But its not a maximization of the options.

Indeed. And the price difference is VERY substantial, even to get a 5600X. 9900T is $200 and OP already had Mobo. 5600X is $290 + $100ish for Mobo beyond e-waste levels, so it would effectively double the price. Superior, but probably unnecessary to meet OP's parameters, and not offer performance necessarily noticeably worth double the cost.

I ran into this recently at work. Replaced a 2013 era Ivy Bridge 3570, IGP, 8GB Ram, 120GB SSD box for a paralegal with a Ryzen 3600 non-X, GT1030, 16GB Ram, 256GB Crucial nVME build. She deals with lots of email and office docs and after asking how she was doing after a couple of weeks using the new setup she responded "I have a new PC?? Oh thanks!! That's so sweet". 😵🥲🙄😭
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,098
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www.teamjuchems.com
Indeed. And the price difference is VERY substantial, even to get a 5600X. 9900T is $200 and OP already had Mobo. 5600X is $290 + $100ish for Mobo beyond e-waste levels, so it would effectively double the price. Superior, but probably unnecessary to meet OP's parameters, and not offer performance necessarily noticeably worth double the cost.

I ran into this recently at work. Replaced a 2013 era Ivy Bridge 3570, IGP, 8GB Ram, 120GB SSD box for a paralegal with a Ryzen 3600 non-X, GT1030, 16GB Ram, 256GB Crucial nVME build. She deals with lots of email and office docs and after asking how she was doing after a couple of weeks using the new setup she responded "I have a new PC?? Oh thanks!! That's so sweet". 😵🥲🙄😭

The real test would be to give her back the old PC. I feel like the better is just accepted, but man when things all of sudden are a tick slower "what happened?!?"

9900T is a great option, but personally I always look to resell and I don't like ES because I feel like it puts a lot of folks off and I'd always feel the need to disclose it in a PC build. 🤷‍♂️
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,937
382
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After a discussion in the Motherboards sub-forum, it occurred to me that maybe it's worth to have a follow-up, a year later.
Just to give you an idea, after a couple hundred hours of user experience.

Although I have a 4K monitor, I mostly play at 1080p.
I changed three GPUs (last upgrade turned to be DOA, just went back to Amazon), now running a 1660Ti.
The only thing I hear are the GPU fans, and only during intense play.
Otherwise, it's dead quiet. The CPU was originally cooled by a 90mm downdraft Noctua, later replaced by a 120mm Shadow Rock LP (but with a Noctua low-noise adapter.)
It's quite disconcerting to turn on the machine and hear nothing.

The *only* thing that is affected?
Windows update says the computer can't run Windows 11 :laughing:

Overall, I'm very happy with the experience.
 
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AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
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382
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4600G is $109 @ Newegg , ASrock B550 ITX board is $135 @ Amazon. Was the hassle really worth it?

You got a time machine handy? AFAIK, the 4600G wasn't even officially available on the North American market last year. And comparing today's prices to 13 months ago is pointless.

Also, I'm in Canada, where we don't get the same deals.
 

misuspita

Senior member
Jul 15, 2006
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I sold my 4650G to a friend. Its not terrible value, for him it was a rocket compared to his ancient FX6300. Gave him a M2 Pcie drive, it is really speedy. His (bloated win 7 install from at least 5 years ago) PC used to boot in 4 minutes, this one can do it in 15 seconds, for him was eye opener
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Aug 22, 2001
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I sold my 4650G to a friend. Its not terrible value, for him it was a rocket compared to his ancient FX6300. Gave him a M2 Pcie drive, it is really speedy. His (bloated win 7 install from at least 5 years ago) PC used to boot in 4 minutes, this one can do it in 15 seconds, for him was eye opener
Here in the U.S. it is only $10-$25 less than a 5600G. Which has more cache, is Zen 3, can handle faster ram, and overclocks much better. The older Zen 2 APU with cutdown cache is aging out fast. There is simply no reason to choose it when APU shopping.