News Intel GPUs - we've given up on B770, where's Celestial already

[HurleyBird]

This is *exactly* the thing with video drivers that had me switch from AMD GPUs in the 2000s to Nvidia about a decade ago. I am in a mood to give AMD another chance, but it's been 10+ years, those kind of screw-ups have long term costs.

Exactly my experience with the early Maxwell drivers FWIW. Had to reinstall Windows a few times.

 

[shady28]

Exactly my experience with the early Maxwell drivers FWIW. Had to reinstall Windows a few times.

I've never had any problems with Nvidia drivers. The problems with AMD drivers went on for *years*. There's a reason a card like the 6700XT performs better than the 3060Ti, but sells at a 10%+ discount to the 3060Ti. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't have to do with the experiences of people like myself.

 

[moonbogg]

It's also really hard to hire good quality software engineers right now- especially in a niche field like GPU drivers, when most people with that experience already work at Nvidia or AMD. The team has probably been chronically understaffed.

AMD's driver team only consists of 5 guys in a trailer with no air conditioning, so they must all work at Nvidia.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I also agree with GN on this, they should have stuck to simple geometry / rasterizing. Adding in all the features like SmoothSync, Xess, ray tracing and so on was dumb. I'd guess that 95% of people don't know what those are and don't care about them, nor even use AMD/Nvidia variations. I don't - I don't even bother to try to keep up all the new acronyms and what they mean, and haven't for the past decade. I just use the damn thing and it works.

What I can't get, is why they didn't just disable the buttons for features that were not yet working in acceptable fashion.

Smooth Sync is not some "needed on day 1", feature. This features visual artifacts became the backdrop for much of the video. Take away that and the visual impact of the video drops several notches.

That's the biggest example, but I'm sure there are other things they could have disabled to save additional embarrassment.

 

[Stuka87]

I've never had any problems with Nvidia drivers. The problems with AMD drivers went on for *years*. There's a reason a card like the 6700XT performs better than the 3060Ti, but sells at a 10%+ discount to the 3060Ti. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't have to do with the experiences of people like myself.

That's entirely anecdotal information. nVidia has literally bricked cards with drivers. The 3080/3090 launch was plagued with bad drivers. The difference is nVidia has more push with the media. Not that they actually have less driver issues.

 

[shady28]

That's entirely anecdotal information. nVidia has literally bricked cards with drivers. The 3080/3090 launch was plagued with bad drivers. The difference is nVidia has more push with the media. Not that they actually have less driver issues.

High tier AMD video cards selling for less than lower performance Nvidia cards is not anecdotal. Like I said, you're kidding (deluding) yourself.

 

[thilanliyan]

High tier AMD video cards selling for less than lower performance Nvidia cards is not anecdotal. Like I said, you're kidding (deluding) yourself.

At least more recently, mining may play a factor since some of the newer AMD cards are nothing special for mining.

 

[KompuKare]

Exactly my experience with the early Maxwell drivers FWIW. Had to reinstall Windows a few times.

Ironically, wasn't there a point after Vista came out where a huge percentage of all Windows BSODs were due to Nvidia drivers?

While Nvidia certainly have always put lots of resources into drivers and software (although a few years after JHH said something akin to that they were mainly a software company, Nvidia messed up really badly with hardware during the transition to lead-free solders with "bumbgate" and sold millions of chips which were inherently faulty), they are hardly infallible.

 

[AnandThenMan]

You had your chance to buy ATI, you blew it Intel.

 

[moonbogg]

This Intel GPU makes Vega look like fine art.

 

[Stuka87]

High tier AMD video cards selling for less than lower performance Nvidia cards is not anecdotal. Like I said, you're kidding (deluding) yourself.

Mind share has nothing to do with actual reliability. nVidia's media and marketing presence is hands down better than AMD's (though AMD has gotten better since Ryzen came out). nVidia is a very anti consumer company, and the fact that consumers adore them for it shows just how good their marketing is.

 

[mikk]

AV1 tested on Arc A380:

For streaming AV1 is the future.

 

[IntelUser2000]

So wasn't the 3220 Beta driver supposed to be much better? Is the GN issue latest ARC Control not being included or something else?

I can attest to Nvidia driver working better too. Yes they had their moments of fail, but less than AMDTI did. The features like AA could always be forced unlike AMD/Intel that's at the mercy of the games. The forcing part meant you could get features not directly supported by the game.

The advantage of AMD drivers and hardware are that it could be customized and easier. Nvidia just locks it down or make it not worth working on it.

Back to ARC. Despite being announced early as 2019, I bet there was almost nothing at that point. At the end of DG1 in 2021 is likely when they really started work on ARC. This is like Cyberpunk 2077 when the first time they commit to development they have almost nothing.

The biggest issue is that they thought their iGPU driver was enough. Things like Rebar performance tells me the heart of ARC is very much an iGPU. They took the scaling up iGPU literally.* Being a developer of only iGPUs for 20 years could have meant that they had to break away from that mentality in the first place. I bet everything that's specific to integrated was the design point.

Regardless it's still not hopeless. The 3220 driver improves on the stability a lot and they publicly admitted to issues on the software side. The real thing they need to do is stick and iterate on it. Unfortunately it's one of the countless scenarios where you can't improve without suffering. It's similar to Cannonlake where they had to get something out on 10nm before you could get a real product out. The real world experience is what allows the successor to vastly improve like with Icelake.

*Scaling up is never as simple as non knowledgeable folks expect. You need significant engineering to make it happen. I know from their struggles scaling up bigger iGPUs that it was their weakness.

 

[mikk]

So wasn't the 3220 Beta driver supposed to be much better? Is the GN issue latest ARC Control not being included or something else?

As I said earlier it is not included, the included version is much older. The newest Arc control panel is only available in an extra download package.

31.0.101.3220 Arc Control included:: 0.0.3789.0 (24.03.2022)
30.0.101.3259 Arc Control included: 0.0.3775.0 (18.03.2022)
Arc Control Intel download package 1.0.4723.0 (25.06.2022)


I told them but they ignored it. Not to include the newest version is Intels fail, not testing and not pointing out to the newest Arc control is a GamersNexus fail, they should know better or maybe it wasn't their intention, their intention was a catastrophic video. The newest won't fix everything, the install issue should have been fixed in this however. I know from other people and no install problem on my system (Arc control works on Xe LP devices as well).

 

[IntelUser2000]

I told them but they ignored it. Not to include the newest version is Intels fail, not testing and not pointing out to the newest Arc control is a GamersNexus fail, they should know better or maybe it wasn't their intention, their intention was a catastrophic video. The newest won't fix everything, the install issue should have been fixed in this however. I know from other people and no install problem on my system (Arc control works on Xe LP devices as well).

Just as I thought. And a fun fact. The press is worth less than the stuff that comes out of my ass every day. At least it becomes very useful for fertilizing.

 

[beginner99]

I could imagine it being more frustrating than fun. The biggest problem that I could imagine running into is that you know how to fix the problem, but due to some red tape (company processes, upper management meddling, etc.), you simply cannot fix it or it takes an inordinate amount of time to do so.

You just described my job rather well. Upper managment doesn't really meddle, they simply aren't doing their jobs by "motivating" some people to effing do their jobs or outright fire them. On the plus side, due to constant waiting for others (=Corporate IT) to do their job, I get a lot of "20% project time" to do pretty much what I want to explore. Wanna try this new tech? I just do it.

 

[Leeea]

The features like AA could always be forced unlike AMD/Intel that's at the mercy of the games. The forcing part meant you could get features not directly supported by the game.

That is not true.

The Nvidia driver is just silently failing. It does not support forcing AA in a deferred rendering game any more then anything else does. Nearly all dx11 and dx12 games are deferred rendering.

Both AMD and Nvidia can force AA in dx9 games.

 

[Tup3x]

That is not true.

The Nvidia driver is just silently failing. It does not support forcing AA in a deferred rendering game any more then anything else does. Nearly all dx11 and dx12 games are deferred rendering.

Both AMD and Nvidia can force AA in dx9 games.

There are workarounds and you can mess with AA compatibility bits but MSAA is mostly dead in new games. With NVIDIA forcing anisotropic filtering works much better than on AMD which officially at least only supports up to DX9. This is sad since there are endless number of DX11 games that have pretty broken AF settings.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I told them but they ignored it. Not to include the newest version is Intels fail, not testing and not pointing out to the newest Arc control is a GamersNexus fail, they should know better or maybe it wasn't their intention, their intention was a catastrophic video.

I have been beating that drum a long time now. Negative content generates more revenue. GN should have done a better job of setting the scene. Which is; their experience reflects what it would have been like to buy the card on launch day and use it as a daily driver. That alone is in contrast to their usual assembly line style benchmarking methodology.

I always make the pun it is manufactured outrage. A company manufactures a product, and most of the reviewers find a way to be outraged about it. It wouldn't be such an issue if too many viewers weren't mouth breathing morons. For example: Their latest vid is on getting scammed in the comments section by the fake PC give aways. That is the level of derp we are dealing with. Consequently, trashing ARC as much as possible without outright making stuff up will get the most clicks. They click more for the drama than the tech and product itself.

 

[Aapje]

I have been beating that drum a long time now. Negative content generates more revenue.

That's just not true. There are plenty of reviewers that are absurdly positive about products, which also offers another revenue stream, as companies pay for that kind of thing.

I think that GN's approach reflects Steve's personality more than anything. He's just very critical and tends to see things as a glass half empty.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

That's just not true. There are plenty of reviewers that are absurdly positive about products, which also offers another revenue stream, as companies pay for that kind of thing.

I think that GN's approach reflects Steve's personality more than anything. He's just very critical and tends to see things as a glass half empty.

True? LOL. I have an opinion, you have a opinion, let's leave the truth out of it. As the old adage has it, the truth tends to be somewhere in between. 😉 You are also bringing up an entirely different type of content; that's my fault. Pedantry is the hallmark of tech forum discussions. I should have been very specific about it being the - We spent our own money, and not sponsored content, style of review. Even then there is the well known - Influencing editorial direction content too. I don't want to leave too many bullets in people's gun to shoot me with. 😛

 

[Stuka87]

The latest Intel Arc driver release (Which INCLUDES Arc Control) was released on 7/6/2022, per their site here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/726609/intel-arc-graphics-windows-dch-driver.html

Steve at GN specifically said they used the driver that came with the cards/released driver (link above), and Intel then gave them a beta driver, which they also used.

If you download the driver from the link above, everything is dated July 6th. Intel (as far as I can tell) has nothing newer on their page for download.

Also, these cards were manufactured *WAY* before July 6th. Not sure why people are angry at Intel for not including the "latest drivers" in a boxed product that was boxed long before the current release was released.

EDIT: Here is the link to the Beta driver, released July 14th: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...ics-windows-dch-drivers-preview-features.html

 

[Leeea]

There are workarounds and you can mess with AA compatibility bits but MSAA is mostly dead in new games. With NVIDIA forcing anisotropic filtering works much better than on AMD which officially at least only supports up to DX9. This is sad since there are endless number of DX11 games that have pretty broken AF settings.

Sadly, I am still right. Before I made my post I researched it, just to be sure.

I eventually found this 254 page guide:
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/nvidia-anti-aliasing-guide-updated.357956/page-232

Which talks a bit about that. If you spend enough time in that thread, it becomes apparent that the hack it back in did work in DX10 sometimes. By the time DX11 rolls around, it is well and truly dead.


I did not even think to look into AF settings, and sadly I do not have time right now.

 

[Tup3x]

Sadly, I am still right. Before I made my post I researched it, just to be sure.

I eventually found this 254 page guide:
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/nvidia-anti-aliasing-guide-updated.357956/page-232

Which talks a bit about that. If you spend enough time in that thread, it becomes apparent that the hack it back in did work in DX10 sometimes. By the time DX11 rolls around, it is well and truly dead.


I did not even think to look into AF settings, and sadly I do not have time right now.

Generally speaking, if there's DX11/DX12 game that has MSAA support then it has settings for it in game. There may be some rare exceptions where forcing might works but probably not among AAA games.

You don't have to. It should work in <=DX11 and generally in DX12 too. Not sure about Vulkan - I don't have any Vulkan game. For example Genshin Impact lacked in game AF setting for quite somet time. It is now available but it is still is worse than when forced through the driver. Sadly, that's quite common...

AMDs driver just says <=DX9 so I assume that it doesn't work (I've read that some have issues getting it to work in older games like TES: Oblivion these days though). They have now removed the ability to change any video related setting other than video brightness, which is quite meh. It feels like they just keep removing stuff...

What I'd like to know is that does Intels AF setting actually work. Also if their CMAA works as well as NVIDIA's driver FXAA. Tomb Raider 2013 was quite hilarious. Not only did it had horrible FXAA implementation, the SSAA implementation was also horrendous. It's impressive how bad it was.

SSAA:


Driver FXAA:

Driver FXAA is actually quite good option if there's no other option and it's better than the FXAA 3.11. For older games DSR + driver FXAA is rather nice combo these days. No need to mess with injectors either.

Personally I can live without MSAA since DSR is valid for older games. But there are quite a few games with pretty broken AF... If Intel can do that, then feature wise I could probably live with Arc. I wish that I'd stop caring about that... life would be easier.

 

[Leeea]

Driver FXAA is actually quite good option if there's no other option and it's better than the FXAA 3.11. For older games DRS + driver FXAA is rather nice combo these days. No need to mess with injectors either.

Personally I can live without MSAA since DRS is valid for older games. But there are quite a few games with pretty broken AF... If Intel can do that, then feature wise I could probably live with Arc. I wish that I'd stop caring about that... life would be easier.

I am sorry, your doing it wrong.

Virtual Super Resolution is supported by both AMD and Nvidia. Just render that old game at 8k and let your graphics card scale it down to your screen size. Sometimes the UI does not scale, so a mod is required. Sometimes a mod is required to add the 4k, 5k, and 8k* resolution options to the game. But most of the time it just works very well. The shimmer, the jaggys, the blur, it all just goes away. There is no need for AA or AF tricks with super resolution.


*the AMD driver requires you to have a 4k display before it will do 8k super resolution. If your display is 1440p your stuck with just 4k and 5k super resolutions. It still is very effective.