intel D510 NAS with 6xsata? opinions?

[usrvartmp]

Alright. I've been spending the last 2 months reading up on how to build a low-cost low-watt NAS. Based on what I could find, theres so much I still don't understand. <b>Bottomline: I could use your opinions on using a PCI or PCI-E raid 5 card on a D510 mobo</b>

Details: At least on paper, what I hope to build is kinda like the QNAP 6-disk system based on the intel d510 but with WHS instead of linux

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-040-_-Product

I will probably re-use an old TT Armor case _re-fitted with a bunch of new Hot Swap trays in the front), old ddr2 ram that I have sitting around, no separate gfx card (on board gfx only), old 400 PS, new 6 "green" drives for the NAS + 1 old SATA2 250GB drive for the OS.

I'll probably have a few USB devices later on down the road (Skype or MagicJack?) but I need to get the NAS up soon.

<b>Problem is, I cant find a d510 mobo with 6 x SATA.</b>

So I could use some advice on this. Specifically:

1. Is 400W sufficient for driving 7 drives, raid controller and future needs for usb devices?
2. Will the combination of a D510 mobo and raid controller kill the performance of the raid?
3. Could 2xsata onboard work with a 4xsata card? in raid 5?

Incidentally, is it correct that Via Nano 3000's are only for embedded and packaged solutions? (ie no separate mobo or cpu sales?)


Thanks.

 

[Old Hippie]

WHS doesn't need or use RAID.

 

[usrvartmp]

Thanks for that point. WHS uses drive extender. Gotcha. But I'm still confused. Is a PCI or PCI-E card drive controller card appropriate on a D510 mini-itx (or some other SFF) mobo?

 

[Old Hippie]

AFAIK it doesn't matter which you use.

Naturally PCIe will have faster speed capabilities but many use "Green" drives which make it a moot point.

Whatever slots your MB has will suffice.

WHS uses a 'duplication' method to 'back-up' your data.

 

[Old Hippie]

I've been using WHS for @ 10 months but neither of my machines have been based with anything "Atom".

It may be difficult to find any Atom board with 6 SATA ports and don't forget to include the optical drive unless you can do a USB/IDE install.

Right now I'm using 2 cheapo PCI cards (one has 2 internal SATA ports and the other has one internal and one eSATA port) and they work just fine on a cheapo XFX GeForce 8200 MB.

Many here are using WHS but We Got Served and MS Windows Home Server are the places to go for in depth information.

There's even an WHS X-Files Edition that includes many drivers and updates. I've been using it and it works just fine.

 

[usrvartmp]

AFAIK it doesn't matter which you use.

Naturally PCIe will have faster speed capabilities but many use "Green" drives which make it a moot point.

Whatever slots your MB has will suffice.

WHS uses a 'duplication' method to 'back-up' your data.

Thanks for that great point. I wonder what the trade-off is for going "green". Although I think PCIe will still help with sustained transfer speeds for larger files (once the trays have spun up).

 

[usrvartmp]

Many here are using WHS but We Got Served and MS Windows Home Server are the places to go for in depth information.

There's even an WHS X-Files Edition that includes many drivers and updates. I've been using it and it works just fine.

Awesome! Thanks for the info.

 

[Old Hippie]

I wonder what the trade-off is for going "green".

AFAIK all "Green" drives are 5400 rpm and that will effect many aspects.

I definately noticed a decrease in transfer speeds when I installed the first green drive in my unit.

Although I think PCIe will still help with sustained transfer speeds for larger files (once the trays have spun up).

AFAIK there's no green drives that will saturate a PCI interface much less a PCIe interface.

AFAIK PCIe won't help in this situation.

 

[Zap]

<b>Bottomline: I could use your opinions on using a PCI or PCI-E raid 5 card on a D510 mobo</b>
...
<b>Problem is, I cant find a d510 mobo with 6 x SATA.</b>

So I could use some advice on this. Specifically:

1. Is 400W sufficient for driving 7 drives, raid controller and future needs for usb devices?
2. Will the combination of a D510 mobo and raid controller kill the performance of the raid?
3. Could 2xsata onboard work with a 4xsata card? in raid 5?

More bandwidth = better, so PCIe would be better than PCI.

1. Yes. Probably don't need more than 150W or so if you're doing Atom with 5400RPM drives. You should get the smallest decent quality and efficient PSU you can. Consider this 300W 80+Bronze PSU.

2. No RAID needed, as has been mentioned. You may need a card for more SATA ports. Performance should be fine, expecially if you use a PCIe card.

3. No.

Here are some motherboard suggestions:

GIGABYTE GA-D510UD $95
Mini ITX, Atom D510, GBe, 4x SATA, 1x PCI
This is pretty close, only short two SATA ports and PCI instead of PCIe.

SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SLA-H-O $150
Flex ATX, Atom 330, 2x GBe, 4x SATA, 1x PCI, 2x PCIe x8 (one x4 lanes, one x8 lanes)
This is a "real" server board. Sure, uses older CPU/chipset, but this board should take well to PCIe SATA cards of any kind.

ZOTAC NM10-DTX WiFi $???
DTX, Atom D510, GBe, 6x SATA, WiFi (in mini-PCIe slot), 2x PCIe x1 lanes (one physical x16 slot)
This isn't out yet AFAIK, but probably comes closest to what you want with D510 and 6x SATA.

 

[usrvartmp]

AFAIK there's no green drives that will saturate a PCI interface much less a PCIe interface.

AFAIK PCIe won't help in this situation.

Ok. I see the math now. Even with a 4x port multiplier and optimistic single disk x-fer rates:

4 x 40 MB/s << 250 MB/s

That makes sense.

 

[usrvartmp]

More bandwidth = better, so PCIe would be better than PCI.

1. Yes. Probably don't need more than 150W or so if you're doing Atom with 5400RPM drives. You should get the smallest decent quality and efficient PSU you can. Consider this 300W 80+Bronze PSU.

That's a nice one. I'll prob have to flip a coin whether I want to stick with the old Antec 400W I have or go for improved efficiency with that one. $40 seems reasonable cost to have a better MTBF from a new PSU. I guess I was stressing over start-up wattage where somewhere I read each disk could suck up as much as 30 W (I think it was this one http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/storage/hddpower.html) although I guess with green drives it should be no where close to that.

3. No.

Is that true even with WHS drive extender?

ZOTAC NM10-DTX WiFi $???
DTX, Atom D510, GBe, 6x SATA, WiFi (in mini-PCIe slot), 2x PCIe x1 lanes (one physical x16 slot)
This isn't out yet AFAIK, but probably comes closest to what you want with D510 and 6x SATA.

Thanks for the recommendations. This one was one in particular that I was waiting on while going through my sata card ruminations.

Probably by the time it comes out, they'll finally announce a D510 with Ion2 and then I'll have to go through this all over again....

 

[Old Hippie]

Ok. I see the math now. Even with a 4x port multiplier and optimistic single disk x-fer rates:

I guess I'm just not understanding you.

There's no need for a port multiplier in a WHS situation.

Most everything is done thru an ethernet cable.

I'm thinkin' you may be confusing a NAS and a WHS (Windows Home Server)?

 

[usrvartmp]

I guess I'm just not understanding you.

There's no need for a port multiplier in a WHS situation.

Most everything is done thru an ethernet cable.

I'm thinkin' you may be confusing a NAS and a WHS (Windows Home Server)?

Ok. Maybe I'm just confused. A diy WHS would need a cpu, mobo, ram, and drives, right? And if I wanted, say, 12 TB and also wanted to use an intel atom D510 (which limits my choices for mobo's) then I'd have no choice but to use a pci controller. Have I missed something?

Edit: Oh, I see. Yes. I'm kind of using WHS and NAS as interchangeable terms although it seems WHS has more functionality than a NAS (depending on who you ask). My main concern is using a pci storage controller on a D510-based system. Performance, concerns, basic expectations don't seem to be common topics when a low-watt cpu is the context.

Most everything is done thru an ethernet cable.

Not sure what you mean.

 

[Zap]

I guess I was stressing over start-up wattage where somewhere I read each disk could suck up as much as 30 W (I think it was this one http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/storage/hddpower.html) although I guess with green drives it should be no where close to that.

"Green" drives probably won't use much over 10W spinning up. 7200RPM stuff is probably around 12-15W spin-up.

Is that true even with WHS drive extender?

Thanks for the recommendations. This one was one in particular that I was waiting on while going through my sata card ruminations.

Probably by the time it comes out, they'll finally announce a D510 with Ion2 and then I'll have to go through this all over again....

Not sure about WHS stuff. Never used it. I'm more of a hardware kind of guy.

Note that while it has 6x SATA ports, I think four of those are using a built-in SATA card.

You won't need ION2 because it is basically adding a low end Nvidia card built-in to the motherboard, or in a looser interpretation bundled with the motherboard. For instance...

ZOTAC NM10-DTX ION

You want that Zotac DTX board as an ION? You got it! Well, except for the fact that it has yet to show up in stores.

 

[pjkenned]

For what it's worth, WHS works on my Atom N330, but buying a cheap i3/i5 is a HUGE improvement. My N330/ ION system was based off the Asus board. Here's some power info: http://www.servethehome.com/?p=331

With the Gigabyte board I was able to install 2 extra Intel GigE NIC's, a HP SAS Expander, and an Adaptec 5805 so it expands well.

Just remember, WHS v2 is closeby. Running Windows Server 2008 R2 on the N330/ION is painful, versus snappy and able to even handle VM's on the i5-650. WHS v2 is based on R2 so if you want a few months of future proofing... you may want someting other than a D510.

 

[Old Hippie]

Running Windows Server 2008 R2 on the N330/ION is painful,

I wondered how those IONs worked out......not well I see.

The lowest processing power I've used with my WHS is a XFX GeForce 8200 with an AMD 4800+ processor and I've seen it get bogged down.

Oh, I see. Yes. I'm kind of using WHS and NAS as interchangeable terms although it seems WHS has more functionality than a NAS (depending on who you ask).

That's the ticket. There's no need for RAID and port multipliers on a WHS....think routers and ethernet cables.

Just remember, WHS v2 is closeby.

Yep and keep in mind it will be 64bit only and require a complete reinstall.

That ATOM stuff does do 64bit, doesn't it?

 

[Zap]

I wondered how those IONs worked out......not well I see.

The lowest processing power I've used with my WHS is a XFX GeForce 8200 with an AMD 4800+ processor and I've seen it get bogged down.

Doesn't it depend on what you are using it for? If it is strictly serving up files and absolutely nothing more, if an old Pentium III can do it, the Atom should be able to.

That ATOM stuff does do 64bit, doesn't it?

I think around half of them do. Just go to Intel's site listing all Atom processors and filter on EM64T.

 

[Old Hippie]

Doesn't it depend on what you are using it for? If it is strictly serving up files and absolutely nothing more, if an old Pentium III can do it, the Atom should be able to.

I'm actually using mine as a server. Only 6 people are invited to use it but it gets pretty slow if more than 2 are accessing it.

But that's kinda my point with the OP. Why go the server route if you only want a NAS?

Seems that many use the terms interchangeably and don't realize there's a difference.

I appreciate the Atom link and I'm hoping that anyone considering the new version of WHS makes sure their purchases can do 64bit computing.

 

[usrvartmp]

That's the ticket. There's no need for RAID and port multipliers on a WHS....think routers and ethernet cables.

What you're saying is "why bother with raid hardware when WHS lets you put a group of disks (any which way possible through USB or ethernet) that would effectively remove the need for a business class dedicated server".

I have two concerns (although I would welcome someone else's commonsense):

1. Cleanliness. Would rather avoid a bunch of usb drives and having to leave multiple machines on 24/7 (hence the interest in atom to house all drives under one roof for extreme efficiency)
2. Reliability. This is not an overwhelming concern. I just feel I'm only introducing more possible points of failure with a bunch of usb devices.


Edit:

But that's kinda my point with the OP. Why go the server route if you only want a NAS?

I haven't read up enough on this yet, but the server is preferred to handle the possibility of magicjack in the future. (a dedicated 24/7 magicjack computer that doubles as a fileserver). I think a pure NAS could work with it too but not sure.

 

[Old Hippie]

What you're saying is "why bother with raid hardware when WHS lets you put a group of disks (any which way possible through USB or ethernet) that would effectively remove the need for a business class dedicated server".

You can go either way but WHS can't use any RAID. If you wish to incorporate RAID you will need to go with another server OS.

I'm not sure where the USB drives come into play but WHS is easily expandable just by adding more drives directly to the MB or via those SATA expansion cards.

The WHS OS has the option to duplicate data for reliability but it's not a RAID type duplication.

For a majic jack I'm pretty sure you'll need a server.


PSSSS....Some of your comments got me thinking....but you do realize when I talk about a WHS I'm just talking about the operating system not an entire pre-built unit....right? WHS is a server OS that can be used with any computer to make a server. Is this why you're talking about USB drives and such?

 

[usrvartmp]

I'm not sure where the USB drives come into play but WHS is easily expandable just by adding more drives directly to the MB or via those SATA expansion cards.

That's exactly the problem. The only thing Atom-based systems get me is power savings. So thats my #1 priority if we're even talking about them. Then the next question is how to attached 6 or more drives (+ a CDrom and drive for OS) to a cpu whose mobos at best support only 4xsata (and sometimes + 2x ata133). So an expansion card is inevitable. Which then brings me to the question in the OP about what might one expect putting an expansino card in a power-saving architecture like one that supports a D510 cpu.

I think I'm handy enough to tackle building a machine to do what I want. Whether its a WHS, a NAS, or a raid server. I just want to do it using a D510 system for the sake of ultra-low power. My need for magic jack excludes a linux-based nas or raid.

 

[pjkenned]

You can go either way but WHS can't use any RAID. If you wish to incorporate RAID you will need to go with another server OS.

I've been using both Adaptec and Areca hardware raid 6 for at least 15 months underneath WHS. I've also used ICH10R raid 5 for test purposes. WHS doesn't support it in the same fashion as FreeNAS, Openfiler, and unRaid, but it is not difficult to set up, especially if you have any experience with raid 5/6. You just have to pass 2TB (Max) MBR volumes to WHS after creating them on the raid hardware.

That being said, the duplication of WHS is great, as is the dedupe. Duplication creates copies of data on different drives (somewhat like raid 1 except the copies can be distributed across different disks so you don't pair, and you don't have to manage). It has a bit of latency in the sense that if you copy over 3TB of data, it may not be replicated for a few hours. Dedupe is what reduces the number of times a file is replicated. So if you are backing up 10 PC's with Windows 7, Office, and etc (standard base installs) the amount of space you save is very significant (in my environment, it looks like 100's of GB's).

BTW if you are concerned about power draw check this out: http://www.servethehome.com/low-power-core-i5-650-server/

3x GigE NICs, 4GB of ram, SSD, a hardware IOP348 (Dual 1.2ghz core) raid card, a HP SAS Expander, i5-650 and it is pulling 70w. Just for the record, that setup supports over 40 SATA drives, and was running R2 fine, even with a linux VM.

Don't bother with USB drives on the NAS/ WHS, unless you are using them to create offline backups. WHS has a feature that lets you dedicate such drives for backing up important files. USB drives are not ideal for raid 5/6/z/z2 and etc. Simply put, you usually need a second power supply for USB drives, which introduce a second point of failure for a disk. Furthermore, the connectors are not as secure as SFF-8087 connectors which increases the chance they fall out of arrays. Finally, the latency and bandwidth constraints would not be ideal for raid environments.

 

[usrvartmp]

I've been using both Adaptec and Areca hardware raid 6 for at least 15 months underneath WHS. I've also used ICH10R raid 5 for test purposes. WHS doesn't support it in the same fashion as FreeNAS, Openfiler, and unRaid, but it is not difficult to set up, especially if you have any experience with raid 5/6. You just have to pass 2TB (Max) MBR volumes to WHS after creating them on the raid hardware.

Good to know. I was guessing something like that would be possible.

BTW if you are concerned about power draw check this out: http://www.servethehome.com/low-power-core-i5-650-server/

3x GigE NICs, 4GB of ram, SSD, a hardware IOP348 (Dual 1.2ghz core) raid card, a HP SAS Expander, i5-650 and it is pulling 70w. Just for the record, that setup supports over 40 SATA drives, and was running R2 fine, even with a linux VM.

That's not bad if its at idle (it would be terrific at load!). I think the atom systems would draw about a third of that but would be limited in number of pci slots for expandability.

Don't bother with USB drives on the NAS/ WHS, unless you are using them to create offline backups. WHS has a feature that lets you dedicate such drives for backing up important files. USB drives are not ideal for raid 5/6/z/z2 and etc. Simply put, you usually need a second power supply for USB drives, which introduce a second point of failure for a disk. Furthermore, the connectors are not as secure as SFF-8087 connectors which increases the chance they fall out of arrays. Finally, the latency and bandwidth constraints would not be ideal for raid environments.

I'm just going to pair WHS with this non-hardware raid card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815121009

The number of ports is what drew me in. Putting a pci-x into a pci slot seems less than ideal, but I don't think I'll be bumping up against any bottlenecks.

 

[Old Hippie]

I've been using both Adaptec and Areca hardware raid 6 for at least 15 months underneath WHS. I've also used ICH10R raid 5 for test purposes. WHS doesn't support it in the same fashion as FreeNAS, Openfiler, and unRaid, but it is not difficult to set up, especially if you have any experience with raid 5/6. You just have to pass 2TB (Max) MBR volumes to WHS after creating them on the raid hardware.

Cool!

So you're using the RAID and WHS duplication at the same time for everything?

My 2TB of music files are the only thing I care about and it's backed-up to a seperate SATA external.

 

[Zap]

I think the atom systems would draw about a third of that but would be limited in number of pci slots for expandability.

If you want an expandable Atom board, look into the SuperMicro server board with Atom 330.